Mitch Marner Versus Blake Wheeler

[WilliamNylander]

LOL, I love Marner, my fav Leafs by a long long shot... He is exciting to watch but don't dismiss SH and PP points. Like they don't exist or not as hard to get..Untrue.

Wheeler is huge, faster, better at protecting the puck, defensively, stick work, play along the board.

Get lost Simpson.

Can’t just them to compare players. Leafs are 31st in powerplays this year and last year. Even strength makes more sense to look at.

 

[Peggy]

To confirm that Wheeler is just doing what anyone with good players on the PP would be doing, I compiled a complete list of players who play regularly on the PP with a higher P/60 than Wheeler on the PP over the past two seasons:

Where

 

[Peggy]

Can’t just them to compare players. Leafs are 31st in powerplays this year and last year. Even strength makes more sense to look at.

"We suck at power play so lets ignore that and just focus on 5v5" Haha

 

[Romang67]

Where

There is no list. Over the past two seasons he has the highest P/60 in the league on the PP.

That's not too impressive though. Someone has to be first. We were talking about Wheeler in his role as a passer. So let's look at primary assists on the PP.

The difference over the past two seasons in A1/60 between Wheeler, who is #1 at 6.66A1/60, and Carlson, who is #2 at 3.67A1/60, is as big as the difference between Carlson at #2 and Jost at #193.

Huh. Maybe he actually is good in that role. Or he's just doing what literally any decent NHL player could, but the others just decide not to.

 

[CantLoseWithMatthews]

Marchessault outscored Ovechkin 5v5 last year, seems like in your mind Ovechkin wasn't better than Marchessault ?

For the record im tempted to pick Marner here. But poor argument is poor mate.

Ovechkin had 48, Marchessault had 44. unless you mean by a per minute basis, but then Marchessault also outscored Ovechkin in a per minute basis if you look at all strengths. Powerplay points are too dependent on opportunity and coaching to pretend they're as meaningful as 5v5 points, even if you were able to come up with a proper exception.

 

[Psych0dad]

There is no list. Over the past two seasons he has the highest P/60 in the league on the PP.

That's not too impressive though. Someone has to be first. We were talking about Wheeler in his role as a passer. So let's look at primary assists on the PP.

The difference over the past two seasons in A1/60 between Wheeler, who is #1 at 6.66A1/60, and Carlson, who is #2 at 3.67A1/60, is as big as the difference between Carlson at #2 and Jost at #193.

Huh. Maybe he actually is good in that role. Or he's just doing what literally any decent NHL player could, but the others just decide not to.

Have you compared to his time before Laine and Scheifele were in his PP?

Just a suggestion to get an idea which came first, his crazy assist totals or these two snipers?

 

[Peggy]

There is no list. Over the past two seasons he has the highest P/60 in the league on the PP.

That's not too impressive though. Someone has to be first. We were talking about Wheeler in his role as a passer. So let's look at primary assists on the PP.

The difference over the past two seasons in A1/60 between Wheeler, who is #1 at 6.66A1/60, and Carlson, who is #2 at 3.67A1/60, is as big as the difference between Carlson at #2 and Jost at #193.

Huh. Maybe he actually is good in that role. Or he's just doing what literally any decent NHL player could, but the others just decide not to.

Haha I like what you did there

Well played

 

[Peggy]

Have you compared to his time before Laine and Scheifele were in his PP?

Just a suggestion to get an idea which came first, his crazy assist totals or these two snipers?

Blake wheeler knows how to use his team mates

 

[WilliamNylander]

"We suck at power play so lets ignore that and just focus on 5v5" Haha

31st in powerplays not power play percentage genius.

Not sure why but two years in a row now Toronto has been last place in the # of powerplays received. Gord Miller and Ray Ferraro suggested the Leafs don’t get PPs because the refs think their power play is really good. So the jury is out on that one.

 

[Peggy]

31st in powerplays not power play percentage genius.

Not sure why but two years in a row now Toronto has been last place in the # of powerplays received. Gord Miller and Ray Ferraro suggested the Leafs don’t get PPs because the refs think their power play is really good. So the jury is out on that one.

Regardless. You're playing semantics

 

[Uncle Scrooge]

Ovechkin had 48, Marchessault had 44. unless you mean by a per minute basis, but then Marchessault also outscored Ovechkin in a per minute basis if you look at all strengths. Powerplay points are too dependent on opportunity and coaching to pretend they're as meaningful as 5v5 points, even if you were able to come up with a proper exception.

Im looking at ES points, Ovechkin had 56 Marchessault 59.. i guess that includes 4 on 4 ? Which to me is whatever, it's not a PP situation anyway.

Ovie had 31 points on the PP while Marchessault only had 16

But yeah.

 

[CantLoseWithMatthews]

Im looking at ES points, Ovechkin had 56 Marchessault 59.. i guess that includes 4 on 4 ? Which to me is whatever, it's not a PP situation anyway.

Ovie had 31 points on the PP while Marchessault only had 16

But yeah.

Let's say player A and player B are equally good, but player A gets twice as much powerplay time. Do you think it's reasonable to expect player B to have as many powerplay points, or even total points? I would say no. Now let's say player A is better than player B, and plays with better linemates at 5v5 and against the same competition. Wouldn't you expect player A to get more 5v5 points than player B? I would, which is why it doesn't add up that Wheeler isn't out producing Marner. it must be because he's not actually better

 

[Saitama]

Man, that's a whole ton of typing for psychodad to show that he hasn't got a frigging clue about the player! I mean, I'm sure we knew that without the 18 part novel.

 

[Kismet]

Let's say player A and player B are equally good, but player A gets twice as much powerplay time. Do you think it's reasonable to expect player B to have as many powerplay points, or even total points? I would say no. Now let's say player A is better than player B, and plays with better linemates at 5v5 and against the same competition. Wouldn't you expect player A to get more 5v5 points than player B? I would, which is why it doesn't add up that Wheeler isn't out producing Marner. it must be because he's not actually better

But what if, in reality, your player A had nowhere near "twice as much" powerplay time? And, what if there was also a significant difference in their shorthanded time, with player B spending a lot less time having to kill penalties?

 

[talitintti]

Let's say player A and player B are equally good, but player A gets twice as much powerplay time. Do you think it's reasonable to expect player B to have as many powerplay points, or even total points? I would say no. Now let's say player A is better than player B, and plays with better linemates at 5v5 and against the same competition. Wouldn't you expect player A to get more 5v5 points than player B? I would, which is why it doesn't add up that Wheeler isn't out producing Marner. it must be because he's not actually better

PP and 5vs5 require different skillsets. Abilities that need extra time and space to operate work better in powerplay. Like Ovechkin's shot.

 

[Kunta Kinte]

Can’t just them to compare players. Leafs are 31st in powerplays this year and last year. Even strength makes more sense to look at.

What a stupid argument... Lets not act like they are 21st in the league for PPG and have spent 200minutes on the PP.. They are last in opp cuz they don't create those opp.

 

[Sakujo]

Eh they're both trash

 

[Psych0dad]

Blake wheeler knows how to use his team mates

You mean he learned it going to 16-17 season?

 

[Psych0dad]

Man, that's a whole ton of typing for psychodad to show that he hasn't got a frigging clue about the player! I mean, I'm sure we knew that without the 18 part novel.

What are your counterarguments? It's easy to just say "You're wrong", another thing to show it.

 

[Saitama]

What are your counterarguments? It's easy to just say "You're wrong", another thing to show it.

My counterarguments are actually the arguments that you posted. Read them and you'll see that they're wrong.

 

[Psych0dad]

My counterarguments are actually the arguments that you posted. Read them and you'll see that they're wrong.

So nothing? That is what I expected

 

[Peggy]

You mean he learned it going to 16-17 season?

No. Blake wheeler was a ~70 point player with plugs like little and ladd. It's about time he had some useful tools to work with

Look at where ladd is now
And look where little is now

 

[JetsWillFly4Ever]

Let's say player A and player B are equally good, but player A gets twice as much powerplay time. Do you think it's reasonable to expect player B to have as many powerplay points, or even total points? I would say no. Now let's say player A is better than player B, and plays with better linemates at 5v5 and against the same competition. Wouldn't you expect player A to get more 5v5 points than player B? I would, which is why it doesn't add up that Wheeler isn't out producing Marner. it must be because he's not actually better

I agree with you on 5v5 vs. PP.

I still think people underestimate the 'luck' factor. I put luck in quotations because it is not necessarily luck, but something that is of low probability to re-occur. Marner's OIS% coming into this season:~9.2 (was 9.6% two years ago, 8.8% last year), Marner's OIS% this year 14.2%. That is an over 50% increase. Yes a lot of that can be explained by being moved onto Tavares line and in general NHL scoring increasing this season, but some of that is luck. Maintaining this OIS% will be incredibly difficult, it is far more likely he regresses towards 11-12% then it is he keeps a 14.2%.

Wheeler's being at 11% is still on the high end for his career but it is much more reasonable. If you gave Wheeler Marner's OIS%, Wheeler would be producing just as much as Marner 5v5, or at least a lot closer.

The difference between the two is marginal at best and there are arguments for either side. I expect Marner to end the debate within a year or two though.

 

[Romang67]

Have you compared to his time before Laine and Scheifele were in his PP?

Just a suggestion to get an idea which came first, his crazy assist totals or these two snipers?

You mean when he had a completely different role on the PP? When he wasn't QBing the PP from the half-wall?

Again, you are free to believe that any player could match Wheeler's A1/60 pace on the PP, and that his numbers really only are a result of his playing with snipers on the PP (cause no other player in the league is QBing a PP with snipers on it). Don't let the numbers interfere with that.

 

[LeafsNation75]

31st in powerplays not power play percentage genius.

Not sure why but two years in a row now Toronto has been last place in the # of powerplays received. Gord Miller and Ray Ferraro suggested the Leafs don’t get PPs because the refs think their power play is really good. So the jury is out on that one.

If it's true that sometimes the refs don't give some players the benefit of the doubt when they get hit on a obvious play that should be a penalty, I wonder if the Leafs hot start on their power play is the reason why they are last in power plays drawn.