Miscellaneous NHL Discussion: Off-Season Edition IV

[DrinkFightFlyers]

Let's talk about how Gudas is a dime a dozen #7, and absolutely not a top 4 Dman instead.

Hey I said I got it wrong, and again I was not the only who said it.

 

[DrinkFightFlyers]

Ever get that feeling of deja vu?

Perhaps folks shouldn't bring it up then. If you don't want to have the discussion about it then don't bring up things I said a year ago because if you do you know I'm going to respond.

 

[JojoTheWhale]

Because when he was drafted it was pretty much a consensus that he'd take 2-3 years. We are at year three and he's not likely to be in the nhl without and injury or trade, and even then it is not a lock given the rest of the talent and potental that amac may be in the minors. Who said he is ahead of schedule, btw? I have not seen that.

That's fine. I'm not saying he won't get called up, just that he may not be first line. All I'm saying is a guy drafted in the first round in 2013 is not in the NHL right now and won't be unless there's an injury. Then next season he will presumably be battling Sanheim, Myers, and Hagg (and maybe even Friedman, Wilcox, or others). He is not even a lock to make it next year it would seem even if we ditch AMac. Provolone, Ghost, MDZ, Gudas will be here, that leaves two spots. I'd expect Sanheim to be in line for one and Morin for the other...but that assumes we don't sign anyone, trade anyone, or get unexpected help from Hagg or other prospects. Patience is great, but at some point you have to think maybe it is better to either trade him or be concerned that there just isn't room for him here.

Every single defenseman who needs to develop is "2-3 years away". It's just a platitude at this point.

Since I know you're somewhat of a Hagg fan still, I think this is the reasonable way to phrase it -- the difference between the two is that Morin seems certain to never hit his upside, but on track for the still being a solid NHL regular while Hagg never had that kind of upside. His second tier of hitting is a 6/7 type.

Del Zotto is a pending UFA and Hextall has already shown he'll designate MacDonald if the situation calls for it. Friedman isn't jumping from the NCAAs straight to the NHL and even if he did, they don't play the same side or fill the same role. Myers plays the right side. Sanheim may or may not stick on the right and doesn't fill the same role.

If he's not on the roster to start next year, get worried. Get very worried.

 

[bennysflyers16]

CI channels say nothing on but almost all have NHL games or OHL games. Hope Flyers next games are back on TV.

 

[LegionOfDoom91]

Not sure exactly what was said about Ghost but IIRC it was something that I was concerned his size would be an issue and that I'd be open to trading him for another high-end prospect, such as Anthony Mantha since we don't have any big time goal scorers in the pipeline. Now Mantha is going to be in his first NHL season this year it would seem. I wouldn't do that trade now, but I'm Not sure there's a "how'd that turn out" moment there. Mantha could have a good rookie season and Ghost may regress (which I know is not popular here but is actually possible).

Those assumptions are the most likely scenarios tgough, are they not?

You were doing the same thing here as you did last year. You were putting the cart before the horse. You were advocating to trade a prospect because of prospect depth while the NHL level was still lacking in talent. Others were telling you what I said in my previous post of letting things play on the year before we start doing that. Gostisbehere made the team eventually making an impact & solidifying a spot going foward. Not that he did but if Hextall subscribed to your thought process & went through with trading Gostisbehere last year doesn't happen & we are here still wonder what guy is going to be the first to step up in the NHL level.

Well Del Zotto isn't signed as of now. Mentioning guys like Hagg, Willcox, & Friedman in regards to the NHL is too premature right now. The first two especially as Hagg isn't exactly progressing well & Willcox isn't the type of prospect to assume the NHL is a given until proven otherwise. This is a big year for both Morin & Sanheim as Provorov & Myers will both be turning pro the following year (if the former doesn't do so this year). They have the advantage right now over both them as AHL eligible guys.

 

[Tripod]

It's hard to believe we have:

Calder runner up
CHL Dman of the year.
WHL PPG leader in last 20 years
QMJHL All Star
WCHA All Star

....and yet someone is focusing on Morin who just had a good AHL rookie season on the heels of a Memorial Cup, WJC, and top 5 PPG in the Q.

People, like myself, have said we need to keep the D to see who pans out and who doesn't. And here we are, and all our young D are playing well....except Hagg. But that's why it's safety in numbers.

And fwiw....where the hell is this 2-3 year thing about Morin coming from. Everyone knew he was a raw prospect that would take longer to develop. He was expected to need the 2 years in Jr and 1 in the AHL IN THE MINIMUM. Morin could be in the NHL right now ahead of guys like Manning, etc... but that is not the goal. The goal is to ripen the prospects so that they come to the NHL and make an impact, not just survive.

Morin is right on target. He has had 3 good years since being drafted. What more did you expect?

 

[Striiker]

Interesting that he's worried about Morin not being able to make the team but he's not worried about Hagg and even thinks he could steal a spot from Morin. If anyone was going to be called a disappointment and cause concern it'd be Hagg way before anyone else.

Morin is improving every year, getting better in the areas that needed the most improvement, like puck handling and shooting, meanwhile Hagg has stalled and still has the same issues that we knew of years ago.
And Wilcox and Friedman are irrelevant right now so no idea why they were even mentioned.

Almost as if this worry is all fabricated for the sake of argument.

 

[DrinkFightFlyers]

Interesting that he's worried about Morin not being able to make the team but he's not worried about Hagg and even thinks he could steal a spot from Morin. If anyone was going to be called a disappointment and cause concern it'd be Hagg way before anyone else.

Hagg didn't have the same potential/hype and doesn't the same impact if he doesn't live up to it. And I am not saying Hagg will get the spot, only that he'll be competing with him, so it's certainly pofor him to do so.

Morin is improving every year, getting better in the areas that needed the most improvement, like puck handling and shooting, meanwhile Hagg has stalled and still has the same issues that we knew of years ago.
And Wilcox and Friedman are irrelevant right now so no idea why they were even mentioned.

Almost as if this worry is all fabricated for the sake of argument.

Improvement is great but if you're improving while other players ate leapfrogging you and it gets further and further from your draft year you have to wonder when the payoff comes.

 

[TheKingPin]

Konecny on a line with couts and jake! Seems like they are giving a him a legit shot to see if he fits. This game better be on tv.

 

[Striiker]

Hagg didn't have the same potential/hype and doesn't the same impact if he doesn't live up to it. And I am not saying Hagg will get the spot, only that he'll be competing with him, so it's certainly pofor him to do so.



Improvement is great but if you're improving while other players ate leapfrogging you and it gets further and further from your draft year you have to wonder when the payoff comes.

The payoff comes when he's done developing and hopefully can be an important part of the defense. Other players passing him in the short term is irrelevant, it's not as if they'll slow down his development. As long as he eventually gets where we want him to be then it doesn't matter if we need to wait a few more years.

Just look at a guy like Chara. Drafted in 1996, wasn't a full time NHLer until 1999, and didn't really break out until the 2002-2003 season.

I'm not saying Morin will follow the same path, that he'll ever be as good as Chara, or anything else other than simply pointing out that sometimes players take a while to reach their potential. You're probably sharing the same type of thoughts that the Islanders had before giving up on him and letting him slip away to the Senators.

Luckily for us he isn't our only high potential D prospect so we have guys who we can plug into the lineup over the next few years as Morin takes his time. We can afford to be patient with him for as long as he needs, so long as he keeps improving.

You asked before when it's time to worry, and my answer would be as soon as he stop improving. As long as he continues getting better every season I don't care if we need to wait 10 more years (obviously I'm exaggerating but you get my point).

Also, he's probably capable enough to play in the NHL this year, but since we already have so many defensemen we can afford to be extra patient with him. It's not like hes far off.

 

[StevensCakeBakerBacker]

Are NHL Dmen prospects the longest wait in pro sports?

I'm not complaining, just feels like they take forever. Seems like the right approach, just is really hard to wait.

Also, thanks to all of you that post updates and opinion on development.

 

[Prongo]

Whole bunch of nonsense coming from someone who has no idea what he is discussing. Bye bye *****es.

 

[LegionOfDoom91]

Are NHL Dmen prospects the longest wait in pro sports?

I'm not complaining, just feels like they take forever. Seems like the right approach, just is really hard to wait.

They're not even the longest in their sport. Goalies generally are the longest to develop in hockey with that they're also the most unpredictable.

Anything baseball related would probably be the answer overall though.

 

[Brayden Fattison]

Konecny on a line with couts and jake! Seems like they are giving a him a legit shot to see if he fits. This game better be on tv.

https://twitter.com/davegisaac/status/781991457787875328
It's not looking good for TV, or even a webcast. Brian Smith is the Flyers' manager for broadcasting and media services. Hopefully they won't send anyone down before the Rags game on Monday.

 

[Tripod]

Hagg didn't have the same potential/hype and doesn't the same impact if he doesn't live up to it. And I am not saying Hagg will get the spot, only that he'll be competing with him, so it's certainly pofor him to do so.



Improvement is great but if you're improving while other players ate leapfrogging you and it gets further and further from your draft year you have to wonder when the payoff comes.

Who has leapfrogged him?

Ghost...who was drafted 1 year earlier than Morin?
Sanheim...who like Morin will start in the AHL?
Hagg...who will be in the AHL all year?
Provy....who has yet to make the Flyers and "could" be sent to Jr still?

Reality is, as of today, no one has leapfrogged him. Provy should in just a few weeks. Sanheim....who knows. Maybe Morin is called up before him.

I wonder if the Leafs are worried about Nylander because Marner and Mathews are about to leapfrog him? Or are they happy as hell to have prospects working out so well. Nah...that doesn't sound right.

 

[Lindberg]

Who has leapfrogged him?

Ghost...who was drafted 1 year earlier than Morin?
Sanheim...who like Morin will start in the AHL?
Hagg...who will be in the AHL all year?
Provy....who has yet to make the Flyers and "could" be sent to Jr still?

Reality is, as of today, no one has leapfrogged him. Provy should in just a few weeks. Sanheim....who knows. Maybe Morin is called up before him.

I wonder if the Leafs are worried about Nylander because Marner and Mathews are about to leapfrog him? Or are they happy as hell to have prospects working out so well. Nah...that doesn't sound right.

Ghost, Provorov, Sanheim, Myers have all leap frogged Morin. That is a poor comparison using Nylander, Marner and Matthews since there is 6 top 6 players and one can easily shift to wing, while there is only 6 defensemen. Players don't swap from defense to forward all that often. Also, I'm not that impressed with anything Morin has done so far either and if trends continue he will end up being on the bottom pairing. The reality is Morin doesn't have the most potential of any prospect and is going to be buried by Provorov, Sanheim and Myers if things continue going the way they are going.

 

[Magua]

Ghost, Provorov, Sanheim, Myers have all leap frogged Morin. That is a poor comparison using Nylander, Marner and Matthews since there is 6 top 6 players and one can easily shift to wing, while there is only 6 defensemen. Players don't swap from defense to forward all that often.

Yes, they have leapfrogged Morin as prospects, at least by my estimation. Provorov though was always the better prospect from the second he was drafted; Sanheim morphed into a special player in junior post-draft; and, while a loud minority during the prospect polls here were clamoring for Myers as the #3 d man, that's slowly becoming a majority with training camp underway and his own terrific 2-way skill set on display. But "leapfrogging" doesn't need to have a negative connotation. There's prospects leapfrogging others chiefly on their own merits, and then there's prospects leapfrogging others due in large part to the shortcomings of these others (like what's happening with, say, Hagg). Morin is firmly in the former camp.

Also, I'm not that impressed with anything Morin has done so far either and if trends continue he will end up being on the bottom pairing. The reality is Morin doesn't have the most potential of any prospect and is going to be buried by Provorov, Sanheim and Myers if things continue going the way they are going.

All Morin has done since draft day is linearly progress every season. From low end scorer his draft year to developing his offense (scoring at a rate not much worse than Myers, on a worse team yet) to 5th among Q d men in p/pg to a good rookie year in the AHL on a crappy team -- in tough minutes, with no PP time. His development has been about as smooth as possible for a high 1st round reach on a raw defensive d-man with "size" and "grit." The developmental path of Morin is littered with the corpses of busts fitting that description.

It really all goes back to how one views Morin. If, on draft day and afterwards, you daydreamed and filled in all the gaps in his game -- to the point where he barely resembled the reality of Sam Morin -- and anointed him the heir to so-and-so, then maybe he's a disappointment. If all along, thinking he was a reach who probably would top out as a 2nd pairing, solid defensive d man with plus skating and underrated puck moving abilities, then he's coming along absolutely fine. I was always of that mindset, and I think he could play in the NHL right now and certainly in several months.

 

[BackToTheBrierePatch]

Usually, but we did get a lot of favorable rulings throughout the season on some rather contentious incidents — those being Gudas' string of hits on Catenacci, Lessio and Farnham and Simmonds' punch on McDonagh.

We did get absolutely shafted on the headshots to VdV and Giroux, though.

which proves one thing. thing NHL continues to be inconsistent with their rulings. there is no bias, or anti bias or whatever. they are just terrible at their job. there needs to be a 3 person panel of former players when it comes to dealing out supplemental discipline. not one guy.

 

[bobbythebrain]

Konecny makes the team imo. Unless he falls flat the rest of pre-season, he makes the team.

 

[MacDonald4MVP]

Wow people are really oblivious to the whole Morin thing. Only prospect that might have leapfrogged him while being able to fill the same role on a team is Provy. Also Morin went from the guy who only had physicality going for him, but still was reckless about it to the guy who could suddenly handle the puck and was lauded as possibly more physical Coburn. Then he went on to improve his decision making so much that we can see him with great outlet passes while under the pressure albeit from Ahl talent, but still great improvement and most importantly in an area that is his biggest weakness. At this point I want him to go back to Ahl solely because I want to see how much he can improve his game and I also happen to think that being away from the pressure of Nhl level might be beneficial to his further development.

 

[kudymen]

Can we just leapfrog to "Miscellaneous NHL Discussion: Off-Season Edition V" and act like the last couple pages never happened, since you will never persuade a fire hydrant that he aint green even though he truly believes it?

 

[TheKingPin]

https://twitter.com/davegisaac/status/781991457787875328
It's not looking good for TV, or even a webcast. Brian Smith is the Flyers' manager for broadcasting and media services. Hopefully they won't send anyone down before the Rags game on Monday.

That's not cool. Hopefully NHL network has it. I'll get the subscription just to see this game.

 

[FLYguy3911]

That's not cool. Hopefully NHL network has it. I'll get the subscription just to see this game.

Doubtful. NHL Network usually just shows the local broadcasts.

 

[Curufinwe]

Sanheim leapfrogged Morin in our prospect polls, (Myers did not) but Morin is closer to being called up. He could quite easily take Schultz's spot or Manning's spot.

Are NHL Dmen prospects the longest wait in pro sports?

I'm not complaining, just feels like they take forever. Seems like the right approach, just is really hard to wait.

Also, thanks to all of you that post updates and opinion on development.

In hockey it's usually goalies. Two time Cup winner Corey Crawford didn't become a full time NHL goalie till age 25. He was in the AHL for five years.

 

[Lindberg]

All Morin has done since draft day is linearly progress every season. From low end scorer his draft year to developing his offense (scoring at a rate not much worse than Myers, on a worse team yet) to 5th among Q d men in p/pg to a good rookie year in the AHL on a crappy team -- in tough minutes, with no PP time. His development has been about as smooth as possible for a high 1st round reach on a raw defensive d-man with "size" and "grit." The developmental path of Morin is littered with the corpses of busts fitting that description.

It really all goes back to how one views Morin. If, on draft day and afterwards, you daydreamed and filled in all the gaps in his game -- to the point where he barely resembled the reality of Sam Morin -- and anointed him the heir to so-and-so, then maybe he's a disappointment. If all along, thinking he was a reach who probably would top out as a 2nd pairing, solid defensive d man with plus skating and underrated puck moving abilities, then he's coming along absolutely fine. I was always of that mindset, and I think he could play in the NHL right now and certainly in several months.

I don't think Morin was a bad pick and if you look back at the draft he is still a decent pick at 11. Max Domi or Shea Theodore really stand out as better picks but I think a few other players would have been a better choice. If he makes even the bottom pairing for the flyers I think they did all right given how Ghost shot of a cannon and the potential for Sanheim/Provorov. When Bob McKenzie says they are going to draft a kid who likes "to hit and fight" I'm just not a fan especially at 11.