Miscellaneous NHL Discussion LVIII: May-June edition

[deadhead]

That would have required trading picks and prospects, which is shortsighted and impatient, and therefore the wrong way to build a team.

ROR is a little overrated.
He had one great season in St Louis, the cup year, followed by a couple good seasons.
He's a top flight 2C, a marginal 1C, better than Hayes and worse than Couts. Defense is based as much on reputation as performance.
The distance between ROR and Hayes is less than you'd think, he plays with better wings in St Louis.

ROR would have made the Flyers a little better, but he wouldn't have moved the needle very far.

Of course, that assumes Buffalo would have even considered trading him within the conference.

 

[deadhead]

I think you are overestimating what this team really is all based on a 2 month hotstreak in 2019 before the pandemic shut everything down.

I think you are underestimating what this team really is based on 3 months with historically bad goaltending.

 

[Psuhockey]

You don't need Couturier or Giroux to be better than Buffalo. You would need to have a really bad season with everyone underperforming. We just had a pretty bad season and still had 21 more points than the Sabres. And then there's the Devils who always find a way to be bad. Or Detroit.

Even if the Flyers were the 4th worse team in the league, I like their chances of building a contender better than where they are situated now.

 

[deadhead]

I think at this point this team is too talented to outtank the worst teams in the league. Tanking is something you can do when your core is aging and you have no second wave of talent. We have Farabee, Konecny, Lindblom, Provorov, Sanheim,... They're all in their early/mid twenties. Should we trade them all and hope to draft better players?

Tanking is also a 5-7 year commitment, Colorado took 7 years out of the playoffs, Chicago went to the playoffs once in ten years before they turned it around, Toronto one PO appearance in 11 years, Pittsburgh did it in 4 years, missed on Whitney, but hit on Fleury, Malkin and Crosby. Tanking is no guarantee, see Buffalo, Edmonton, etc. You not only have to pick high, but in the right drafts.

Anyone want to wait to 2030 to see decent hockey?

 

[Psuhockey]

I think you are underestimating what this team really is based on 3 months with historically bad goaltending.

It’s been nearly a decade. Holmgren and Hextall failed to surround the core in their prime with support players and now the core is aging out of their prime with no one near their talent level to replace them.

They are trapped in mediocrity and it’s a lot easier to go down and rebuild then it is to climb out of it with the hard cap.

 

[Ghosts Beer]

Tanking is also a 5-7 year commitment, Colorado took 7 years out of the playoffs, Chicago went to the playoffs once in ten years before they turned it around, Toronto one PO appearance in 11 years, Pittsburgh did it in 4 years, missed on Whitney, but hit on Fleury, Malkin and Crosby. Tanking is no guarantee, see Buffalo, Edmonton, etc. You not only have to pick high, but in the right drafts.

Anyone want to wait to 2030 to see decent hockey?

Flyers’ luck, if they tanked they’d just end up with another JVR & another Patrick.

 

[flyersnorth]

The Flyers would have less than 1/5 chance (couldn’t find the new percentage for next years draft) but what is the chance of getting a player of that caliber picking in the teens? Being that Boston has been the only team in the last 12 Stanley cup winners to not receive a huge contribution from a top 4 pick on their way to winning, what are the Flyers chances of doing so without tanking? Seems that would be lower than 1/5.

I think trade / UFA is the route Fletch will take. They are definitely not going to tank.

So, say Fletch can sign Hamilton and make a trade for a high-calibre elite-ish forward (let's use Eichel as an example, but not necessarily him, and likely a notch lower), that's one way to improve the team without having a top 4 pick of our own.

Or a trade for Jones and Laine.

Or maybe a move for Ellis and Gaudreau.

There is definitely a path to a more competitive team, and the Flyers have a lot of the right support pieces. The question is whether or not Fletch can pull it off. By September, we'll have a pretty good idea.

 

[tucson83]

Tanking is also a 5-7 year commitment, Colorado took 7 years out of the playoffs, Chicago went to the playoffs once in ten years before they turned it around, Toronto one PO appearance in 11 years, Pittsburgh did it in 4 years, missed on Whitney, but hit on Fleury, Malkin and Crosby. Tanking is no guarantee, see Buffalo, Edmonton, etc. You not only have to pick high, but in the right drafts.

Anyone want to wait to 2030 to see decent hockey?

i agree, let's ask the fans of buffalo and edmonton on how they feel on watching bad hockey for over a decade? thing is if we tank and we dont hit superstars and other teams in our division get those players, we are just digging ourselves deeper and we will be buffalo and edmonton for maybe 20 to 30 years because our division will be stacked and it would too hard to compete with them.

 

[Hollywood Cannon]

Bring him in, Chuck. We need more old heads.

 

[Psuhockey]

I think trade / UFA is the route Fletch will take. They are definitely not going to tank.

So, say Fletch can sign Hamilton and make a trade for a high-calibre elite-ish forward (let's use Eichel as an example, but not necessarily him, and likely a notch lower), that's one way to improve the team without having a top 4 pick of our own.

Or a trade for Jones and Laine.

Or maybe a move for Ellis and Gaudreau.

There is definitely a path to a more competitive team, and the Flyers have a lot of the right support pieces. The question is whether or not Fletch can pull it off. By September, we'll have a pretty good idea.

And how will they be working the salary cap to fit in Laine and Jones or Ellis and Gaudreau as well as a Couturier extension and possibly a Giroux extension. And a Farabee extension as well. Also got to extend Sanheim this year. That’s a lot of money.

 

[Hollywood Cannon]

MAKING THE PLAYOFFS IS NOT A FEAT TO BE PROUD OF ESPECIALLY WHEN YOU NEVER WIN!

 

[Ghosts Beer]

i agree, let's ask the fans of buffalo and edmonton on how they feel on watching bad hockey for over a decade? thing is if we tank and we dont hit superstars and other teams in our division get those players, we are just digging ourselves deeper and we will be buffalo and edmonton for maybe 20 to 30 years because our division will be stacked and it would too hard to compete with them.

Exactly.

 

[Beef Invictus]

Tanking is also a 5-7 year commitment, Colorado took 7 years out of the playoffs, Chicago went to the playoffs once in ten years before they turned it around, Toronto one PO appearance in 11 years, Pittsburgh did it in 4 years, missed on Whitney, but hit on Fleury, Malkin and Crosby. Tanking is no guarantee, see Buffalo, Edmonton, etc. You not only have to pick high, but in the right drafts.

Anyone want to wait to 2030 to see decent hockey?

We are already ten+ years away so what's the difference

 

[Psuhockey]

i agree, let's ask the fans of buffalo and edmonton on how they feel on watching bad hockey for over a decade? thing is if we tank and we dont hit superstars and other teams in our division get those players, we are just digging ourselves deeper and we will be buffalo and edmonton for maybe 20 to 30 years because our division will be stacked and it would too hard to compete with them.

Umm how long have Flyers fans been watching bad hockey? Who do you think is more excited to watch their team now, Flyers fans or Edmonton fans?

 

[flyersnorth]

And how will they be working the salary cap to fit in Laine and Jones or Ellis and Gaudreau as well as a Couturier extension and possibly a Giroux extension. And a Farabee extension as well. Also got to extend Sanheim this year. That’s a lot of money.

Yup. Which means salary will be moving out. Jake or JVR or Ghost to the ED. Then in whatever trade they make, salaries will have to roughly offset, or they will need a plan to shed through another move.

Nothing's easy, and it will cost really good roster players that we like, not the garbage we don't like because no one wants that either.

 

[Beef Invictus]

It's also not like Chicago was winning every Cup. They got eliminated more often than not. They were stoppable. It's just that Fletcher's teams are more stoppable.

 

[Psuhockey]

Yup. Which means salary will be moving out. Jake or JVR or Ghost to the ED. Then in whatever trade they make, salaries will have to roughly offset, or they will need a plan to shed through another move.

Nothing's easy, and it will cost really good roster players that we like, not the garbage we don't like because no one wants that either.

Teams aren’t willing to take on salary. Toronto had to trade a 1st round pick before the pandemic killed revenue just to move Marleau. Why would Buffalo or Columbus take back salary from the Flyers when they wouldn’t have to from teams with capspace to spare?

 

[TCTC]

It's also not like Chicago was winning every Cup. They got eliminated more often than not. They were stoppable. It's just that Fletcher's teams are more stoppable.

Stoppable? During those Cup runs there wasn't a series where they didn't look like the better team. They didn't even need 7 games to beat the best teams from the East.

 

[Beef Invictus]

Stoppable? During those Cup runs there wasn't a series where they didn't look like the better team. They didn't even need 7 games to beat the best teams from the East.

Did you not read my post?

Pay attention to the part about how they weren't winning every Cup, it's important.

Really amazing how desperate people are to prop up a guy who has done squat in 12 years.

 

[TCTC]

Did you not read my post?

Pay attention to the part about how they weren't winning every Cup, it's important.

There was also that other juggernaut from the West. The LA Kings. Those two teams just were better than everyone else from 2012-2015.

 

[Beef Invictus]

There was also that other juggernaut from the West. The LA Kings. Those two teams just were better than everyone else from 2012-2015.

Also didnt win every Cup. Also were stoppable. Lots of excuse making for not being good enough to win.

 

[TCTC]

Also didnt win every Cup. Also were stoppable. Lots of excuse making for not being good enough to win.

From 2012-2015 every Cup was won by either Chicago or LA. It was just bad timing for Minnesota. They got Suter and Parise in 2012. Just when LA started their run and the Blackhawks team was still in their prime.

 

[Redpath]

Also didnt win every Cup. Also were stoppable. Lots of excuse making for not being good enough to win.

Kings fans in 2007: "Why did we hire Dean Lombardi as GM? He never won anything in San Jose!"

Losers are losers, until they're not.

 

[Psuhockey]

From 2012-2015 every Cup was won by either Chicago or LA. It was just bad timing for Minnesota. They got Suter and Parise in 2012. Just when LA started their run and the Blackhawks team was still in their prime.

So let’s say Fletcher has a magical summer and make the Flyers watchable but they never get past the 2nd round of the playoffs for the next 5 years, you will say thats ok because they lost to better teams?

 

[Ghosts Beer]

It's also not like Chicago was winning every Cup. They got eliminated more often than not. They were stoppable. It's just that Fletcher's teams are more stoppable.

In two of the three seasons they eliminated Minnesota, Chicago did win the Stanley Cup. In the other season, they took the Cup winner Kings to 7 games in the Western Conference Final. Stop trying to minimize how dominant those Chicago teams were, led by Patrick Kane. They were the best team in hockey.