Miscellaneous NHL Discussion LVIII: May-June edition

[Psuhockey]

so winning one cup is not good enough for you? you want this team to be a bottom feeder just so you can be better than the pens in terms of winning cups?

I want to play the odds instead of taking one shot and hoping for the best. You saw that under Holmgren.

 

[BernieParent]

Building the core isn't hard. It's putting it over the top with depth moves that is. That's what Fletcher sucks at.

That's a bit dismissive, IMHO, Beef. Fletcher was able to identify some significant talent to build that core, even with Parise and Suter falling into his lap. Your point is important, though, for the situation he faces with the Flyers; ie, most of the pieces in place to establish the core and needing to adjust/add for them to become a top-tier team.

 

[Redpath]

We don't have a strong enough roster to overcome these decisions, which makes them ever more detrimental.

So I repeat: Do you think those decisions are bringing us closer to a Cup? When has Fletcher ever demonstrated he can build a group strong enough to overcome his insistence on having these players? Why have such faith in someone so constantly mediocre for so long?

I don't think Stewart and Prosser-types are bringing us closer to a Cup, but I also think it they get unnecessarily put under the magnifying glass. If our issue is that "we don't have a strong enough roster to overcome these decisions," then the issue will never be about our use of marginal skaters, it should be about the lack of strong-enough core. This is the same as the Hagg-trap we've spoke about before. Is Hagg bad? Yes. Is our issue that he gets slightly overused? Not when our top 4, both goalies, 2C, and top 6 winger all have bad years.

So I repeat: Why should the Kings ever have had faith in Dean Lombardi? Or the Blues in Doug Armstrong? What had either ever done to demonstrate they could win a Cup?

It is miraculous how when Fletcher was hired, the perception was that he was inheriting Hextall's core on the cusp of breaking out. And now that the core clearly is not ready to do so, it is Fletcher's fault for not totally rebuilding our core in 2~ years.

 

[Beef Invictus]

I don't think Stewart and Prosser-types are bringing us closer to a Cup, but I also think it they get unnecessarily put under the magnifying glass. If our issue is that "we don't have a strong enough roster to overcome these decisions," then the issue will never be about our use of marginal skaters, it should be about the lack of strong-enough core. This is the same as the Hagg-trap we've spoke about before. Is Hagg bad? Yes. Is our issue that he gets slightly overused? Not when our top 4, both goalies, 2C, and top 6 winger all have bad years.

So I repeat: Why should the Kings ever have had faith in Dean Lombardi? Or the Blues in Doug Armstrong? What had either ever done to demonstrate they could win a Cup?

It is miraculous how when Fletcher was hired, the perception was that he was inheriting Hextall's core on the cusp of breaking out. And now that the core clearly is not ready to do so, it is Fletcher's fault for not totally rebuilding our core in 2~ years.

I'm not blaming Fletcher for the core at all. That Laughton is being treated like a core player is a problematic mindset he can be blamed for. That he has tried to give away NHL-caliber players (and one quite good one at that) for free on waivers is a problematic mindset he can be blamed for. That he constantly bleeds value in moves is a problematic mindset he can be blamed for. I don't remember Lombardi or Armstrong being hamstrung by similar issues. Fletcher is.

 

[flyersnorth]

Teams aren’t willing to take on salary. Toronto had to trade a 1st round pick before the pandemic killed revenue just to move Marleau. Why would Buffalo or Columbus take back salary from the Flyers when they wouldn’t have to from teams with capspace to spare?

Right, which means the Flyers may end up having to settle for consolation prizes.

That's the truth about Philly right now. Panarin wasn't interested, so we got Hayes. Duchene wasn't interested, so we got JVR (which worked out well). Bobrovsky wasn't interested, neither was Coach Q.

Knowing what we know about Hamilton, I can't imagine him wanting to sign here either.

Philly is not a top destination right now. It's been a middling club for a decade, with basically zero playoff success. So players in high demand look to their preferred market, then we get the leftover scraps.

We're still way better off than Edmonton, Buffalo, Ottawa, and a bunch of other bottom third teams as an attractive destination - but nowhere near the top at the moment.

So Fletch will have his work cut out for him.

For me, this offseason is kind of my barometer for management - his moves will reveal his plan and thought process. I'll either be optimistic or annoyed come the fall.

 

[Striiker]

Toucan, do you think you’d have an easier time following along if posts were turned into pictures?

 

[BernieParent]

It's also really odd to see Hextall getting blamed for Pitt, meanwhile somehow Fletcher is to be praised for a Wild team he's even further from. Interesting double standard there.

People are blaming Hextall for the Penguins' elimination? I mean, of course some are, but seriously? The only thing Hextall could have done to improve their chances was strap on the pads and replace Jarry himself.

 

[Redpath]

I'm not blaming Fletcher for the core at all. That Laughton is being treated like a core player is a problematic mindset he can be blamed for. That he has tried to give away NHL-caliber players (and one quite good one at that) for free on waivers is a problematic mindset he can be blamed for. That he constantly bleeds value in moves is a problematic mindset he can be blamed for. I don't remember Lombardi or Armstrong being hamstrung by similar issues. Fletcher is.

I was a critic of the Ghost move. Laughton's contract is overblown. He bleeds value? When, the Braun trade? What about the Niskanen trade?

This offseason is his first major test with us. I am not ready to anoint him our savior, but it is naive to write him off as of now.

 

[Hollywood Cannon]

 

[Striiker]

How fortuitous

 

[Hollywood Cannon]

How fortuitous

and just like that the NHL took it down...

EDIT: Oh it's back...

 

[TheKingPin]

The Wild still have Fletcher's fingerprints all over them.

Spurgeon -- Fletcher signed him as a FA out of juniors.

Kaprizov, Eriksson-Ek, Greenway, Dumba, Brodin, Soucy -- all Fletcher draft picks.

Suter, Parise, Foligno -- Fletcher UFA signings.

That's pretty damn good for a GM whom the majority of this board whine about incessantly as if he's incompetent.

It is also pretty lack luster without Kaprizov. But you have to give him credit there. He’s not the worst GM in the league. I’ll give you that.

 

[Beef Invictus]

I was a critic of the Ghost move. Laughton's contract is overblown. He bleeds value? When, the Braun trade? What about the Niskanen trade?

This offseason is his first major test with us. I am not ready to anoint him our savior, but it is naive to write him off as of now.

His whole tenure in Minny, Raffl honestly should have gotten a 3rd, trading for Gus was always stupid from the start. Just steadily bleeds away value; trading for both Grant AND Thompson was stupid, and it also killed team chemistry while we have nothing to show for it. He's also done that before in Minnesota, with the Hanzal trade. I'm not talking about Laughton's contract; I'm talking about how he's viewed by the org. It speaks to a kind of mindset that mires you in mediocrity. I like Laughton, but treating him as a core player? That's downright stupid, too.

So far he's failing that test by following through on his commitment to keep this whole coaching staff together.

 

[mja]

It is also pretty lack luster without Kaprizov. But you have to give him credit there. He’s not the worst GM in the league. I’ll give you that.

Would you say he's mediocre? Because that's what we're really looking for in all facets of this organization: mediocrity!

 

[TheKingPin]

Would you say he's mediocre? Because that's what we're really looking for in all facets of this organization: mediocrity!

At best!

 

[TheKingPin]

Just because Minnesota lost to the Hawks and Kings in early rounds, does not preclude them from losing to lesser teams. They drew that matchup with poor seeding. They could have lost to any playoff team those years too. It’s backwards to think that way. They are the definition of mediocre in the NHL.

 

[Cody Webster]

Is this the playoff thread or one of the 15 the bitch about Fletch threads?

 

[pit]

MAKING THE PLAYOFFS IS NOT A FEAT TO BE PROUD OF ESPECIALLY WHEN YOU NEVER WIN!

Today I learned that losing to the eventual winner means you're good.

 

[Redpath]

His whole tenure in Minny, Raffl honestly should have gotten a 3rd, trading for Gus was always stupid from the start. Just steadily bleeds away value; trading for both Grant AND Thompson was stupid, and it also killed team chemistry while we have nothing to show for it. He's also done that before in Minnesota, with the Hanzal trade. I'm not talking about Laughton's contract; I'm talking about how he's viewed by the org. It speaks to a kind of mindset that mires you in mediocrity. I like Laughton, but treating him as a core player? That's downright stupid, too.

So far he's failing that test by following through on his commitment to keep this whole coaching staff together.

You're splitting microscopic hairs over Grant and Thompson. The horror of adding perceived depth at the deadline prior to our run at the #1 seed. The trade market was corrupted this season, with Raffl and others. I don't consider giving Laughton term as making him a "core player." If you like him, you keep him. He isn't 40 years old. And it isn't what "mires you in mediocrity," either. What does that is having a bad (actual) core.

I am not concerned with what he did in Minnesota. As demonstrated, GMs lose until they win. You can likely find these "bleeding value" trades from every single GM in the league.

I would have liked to see a coaching staff change too. That was a mistake on his part. But we still have bigger fish to fry.

It is just a matter of different perceptions. I don't think this team's success boils down to the minutia of Fletcher's moves until the inherited Hextall core actually plays to their value. And if that doesn't happen soon, Fletcher is going to have to pull the plug.

 

[Tripod]

His whole tenure in Minny, Raffl honestly should have gotten a 3rd, trading for Gus was always stupid from the start. Just steadily bleeds away value; trading for both Grant AND Thompson was stupid, and it also killed team chemistry while we have nothing to show for it. He's also done that before in Minnesota, with the Hanzal trade. I'm not talking about Laughton's contract; I'm talking about how he's viewed by the org. It speaks to a kind of mindset that mires you in mediocrity. I like Laughton, but treating him as a core player? That's downright stupid, too.

So far he's failing that test by following through on his commitment to keep this whole coaching staff together.

So Raffl should have fetched a 3rd in the middle of a 7 goal,19 point pace season according to you.

But Grant for a 4th was stupid and he was in the middle of a 23 goal and 33 pt pace season.

Oh....we also didn't trade for Gus...we signed him. And yes, that was a waste....but we signed him for free then traded him for a 7th. So on pure "value", he got something for nothing.

With the ED soon over, all the excuses will be over. He "should" know that he has to do something to make the team better. But as of now, the "types" he has targeted are lesser skilled guys which should be concerning to everyone. But it makes the drafting confusing when they draft undersized skilled D like Andrae or F in McClennon....or sign a skill guy like Gus. So on one hand they must see value in that "type", but then why don't they appreciate Ghost? Confusing.

Anyways, I am prepared for changes. I am also prepared to dislike those changes. Fletch has done nothing with us yet to make me feel I will be saying "wow...great job Fletch". And I don't see why others would either.

 

[Curufinwe]

His whole tenure in Minny, Raffl honestly should have gotten a 3rd, trading for Gus was always stupid from the start.

Fletcher didn't trade for Gus, and there's no way in the world Raffl was going to return a 3rd after the season he had - 8 points in 34 games, plus he was injured at the deadline. Grant only cost a 4th the previous season when he had 20 points in 49 games.

 

[Beef Invictus]

Just because Minnesota lost to the Hawks and Kings in early rounds, does not preclude them from losing to lesser teams. They drew that matchup with poor seeding. They could have lost to any playoff team those years too. It’s backwards to think that way. They are the definition of mediocre in the NHL.

They also lost to the Blues, Jets, and Stars. And then there were the rounds where they didn't qualify.

 

[Beef Invictus]

Fletcher didn't trade for Gus, and there's no way in the world Raffl was going to return a 3rd after the season he had - 8 points in 34 games, plus he was injured at the deadline. Grant only cost a 4th the previous season when he had 20 points in 49 games.

Ah, my bad on Gus.

Believing he was going to be worthwhile remained a waste of cap space. It was a pointless, wasteful move.

Raffl played well for the Caps once he was in a decent situation. Deadlines are full of GMs who buy guys based on reputation more than current conditions. It happens annually. You've failed to debunk the reality that trading for both Grant and Thompson was a waste.

 

[Curufinwe]

This is such a lame conversation. Even if Fletcher had won a Cup in Minnesota, there's no reason to assume that would happen again. Look at Lavi who won in 2006 and never again. And the fact the Wild didn't win one, doesn't mean he won't win in the future here or somewhere else. That's not how any of this works.

 

[Beef Invictus]

So Raffl should have fetched a 3rd in the middle of a 7 goal,19 point pace season according to you.

But Grant for a 4th was stupid and he was in the middle of a 23 goal and 33 pt pace season.

Oh....we also didn't trade for Gus...we signed him. And yes, that was a waste....but we signed him for free then traded him for a 7th. So on pure "value", he got something for nothing.

With the ED soon over, all the excuses will be over. He "should" know that he has to do something to make the team better. But as of now, the "types" he has targeted are lesser skilled guys which should be concerning to everyone. But it makes the drafting confusing when they draft undersized skilled D like Andrae or F in McClennon....or sign a skill guy like Gus. So on one hand they must see value in that "type", but then why don't they appreciate Ghost? Confusing.

Anyways, I am prepared for changes. I am also prepared to dislike those changes. Fletch has done nothing with us yet to make me feel I will be saying "wow...great job Fletch". And I don't see why others would either.

No, I said very clearly that trading for BOTH Grant and Thompson was wasteful and stupid. You're arguing a point I didn't say. I've always been fine with Grant alone, but distinctly scornful of getting both Grant and Thompson.