Post-Game Talk: Minnesota Wild at New York Rangers 10/27/14

[SupersonicMonkey*]

The team's mental toughness is starting to show again. The comback win against NJ, they played decent in Montreal but couldn't finish, they faced adversity last night and instead of rolling over they faught back.

The sloppy mistakes need to be corrected.

 

[Levitate]

I see a shoulder right in the jaw, and Moore had the option to hit lower if he'd wanted to as he lined the hit up. Definitely suspendable, but not as bad as if it had been an elbow. It's the hitters resposiblility that the hit is clean, and I believe Moore should, and could, have avoided hitting him in the head.

Eh, it's really hard to see. Without crystal clear high framerate video and a better angle it's somewhat open to interpretation. But I don't believe Moore could have really hit lower than he did. He didn't leave his feet, he didn't raise his arms, he just threw his shoulder and arm into the body of Haula. The issue arises that Haula was defenseless and that part of Moore's arm may have/probably did hit Haula in the head, but it also looks like he got a lot of Haula's body.

Since Haula's head didn't bounce off the ice, if he does have a concussion really the only way to have gotten one has to have been from the hit, and it then follows that Moore did hit him in the head, which makes the hit worthy of suspension.

I don't think it was on purpose exactly (I don't think he targeted the head) but if you can't make that big hit without clipping the head as well, you probably shouldn't throw it. Moore got caught up ice and was trying to make up for it and made a bad decision.

e: I dont' think he brought his elbow up and made contact with it. you're almost guaranteed to follow through a bit with your arm when you throw a check with your shoulder and that's why his elbow comes up, but it's after the contact.

I also don't think the issue is that Haula's head hit Moore's, or else you'd see much more of a reaction from Moore. One guy doesn't get a concussion and the other guy doesn't even flinch from two heads colliding.

 

[Inferno]

He has four assists and has set up several other golden opportunities, but you don't think he has NHL level passing? Who on this team other than Zuccarello has NHL level passing abilities in your opinion?

i agree with you, in fact i argue that he needs to play on a higher line with people capable of reading his game...hes playing at a level above his linemates right now in terms of his on ice thinking. a few times hes put passes perfectly for his linemates where they flat out didnt expect it. hes looked terrific since the benching.

 

[slipknottin]

You don't need to hit someone in the head to cause a concussion. Whiplash will do that.

But you don't determine penalties/fines based on injury. The NHL has yet to figure that out

 

[Riche16]

in that play there's just no need to plaster the guy. if moore blew on him, he'd have fallen over. instead he tried to send the guy into space. again, no hockey reason to do that. it's just an attempt to make a highlight reel.

Really? I see plenty of reason to hit someone coming across like that.

It's so that the opposition hesitates, or thinks just a half a second longer next time they cross our blue line.

Clean hit or not, don't question y these guys hit like men in a game that counts for a lot in their lives and their careers.

Big boy league, money and history on the line. Scott Stevens made a HOF career out of those hits.

 

[Ola]

I keep looking at it over and over again and I don't see a suspendable hit there. From that angle it doesn't even look like worth a penalty.

Weaver got no suspension for this hit...

 

[Larrybiv]

A defenseless player is one who has his back to you. You should always be prepared to be hit on the shoulder or in the chest, especially during or immediately after taking a shot or pass! If not, just ban hitting altogether. This was a textbook CLEAN check.

looked like a good hit to me. Just looked bad in real time, and John raising his arm in upwards motion didn't help. Tough call in real time. Such an important call that could sway outcome, and I think it could be something that should be looked at on replay by officials to "try and get it right". Whether it should be 2 or 5 minutes, tossed or remain in game. After game, still reviewed by league.

 

[we want cup]

I told my gf that the only way the Moore hit was a hit to the head was if Haula's head was inside his ribcage. He'll get two games because it was an east-west hit that looked bad, in addition to his history.

 

[Larrybiv]

Weaver got no suspension for this hit...

Similar in nature, (open ice, and cross ice) yet Brassard hit higher, and he got it in shoulder.

 

[MysticLeviathan]

Any idea when we'll be hearing the ruling of what the suspensions will be?

 

[Larrybiv]

Really? I see plenty of reason to hit someone coming across like that.

It's so that the opposition hesitates, or thinks just a half a second longer next time they cross our blue line.

Clean hit or not, don't question y these guys hit like men in a game that counts for a lot in their lives and their careers.

Big boy league, money and history on the line. Scott Stevens made a HOF career out of those hits.

Totally agree with this, and if it was one of our guys...... Yeah, we would be passed but still looked good enough. Tough, very hard hit that looked BAD. key word...... LOOKED.

 

[Krams]

Does anyone else think match penalties are given out too easily? Guys should be thrown out for things like the Thornton sucker punch, and maybe plays like Neal going headhunting vs. the Flyers.

If it looks like a hockey play, they should call the major and be done with it until the league decides whether or not there should be supplemental discipline.



I don't really think that really applies to either hit in this game.

Yup. Inexcusably poor understanding of the rulebook by the referee who issued the match penalty on Kreider's hit. Moore's is more debatable, depending on the ref's interpretation at ice level. Kreider made a bad decision while fighting for a puck. Moore was chasing to get back into the play, and leveled the Wild forward who was defenseless, had his head down, and had already released the puck. Rule 48, through and through.

you don't sustain a concussion as the result of whiplash. Moore made contact with Haula's head. It may not have been the primary point of impact, but it happened. Even if he only hit Haula's head on the follow through, I doubt it'll make much difference, considering all the other factors.

• Defenseless player
• Somewhat late
• (At least) some contact with head
• Concussion
• Moore's prior history

Five games at a minimum, I'd expect. John ****ing Moore is a perfect player for the NHL to make an example of.

 

[slipknottin]

you don't sustain a concussion as the result of whiplash

You absolutely can. All you need for a concussion is the brain to be moving at a different speed than the head.

 

[MysticLeviathan]

You absolutely can. All you need for a concussion is the brain to be moving at a different speed than the head.

 

[Riche16]

I just want to post this to illustrate a substansial difference between how we play today compared to have we played 2 years ago.

Start looking from around the 8 second mark and watch the following 7 seconds or something, this is what happens:

1. Minny dumps the puck in

2. Hank takes a dump in from his left, but back hands it to Klein. This is not something that is done 24 months ago when Hank had strict orders to always, 100% of the time, push the puck up the same side as it was dumped in from.

3. Klein gets two players on him, instead of shooting it up along the boards on his side, he makes a D to D pass under pressure to Hunwick.

4. Hunwick gets the puck on our left side of the ice. He got Mueller as a support player up ice on his side. Two years ago, a pass up along the boards to Mueller in that situation would have been made 95 of 100 times.

Hunwick makes a cross ice pass -- from his own zone -- to a streaking Tony D.

Just watch from the 8 second mark to the 15 second mark a few times.

-------------------------------------------------------------

The above is stuff we never made 24 months ago. This is three situations where we had -- set rules -- on how to act on the ice. Ie (i) -- and this one is not a biggie -- Hank always put the puck up along the boards from the side it was put in on, (ii) it was not in our playbook to make D to D passes when pressured, (iii) we never made cross ice passes up from our own end unless we basically had a odd-man rush situation.

My point is this, and the reason I post this now, there are pro's and con's with this. In all three situations, we do not apply playbook rules, that were implemented by Torts to not commit misstakes, in favor of creating offense.

(i) If Hank puts the puck up the boards at the same side it was dumped into -- there is always a log-jam of players there and you almost never get in trouble.

You take a risk here moving it up along the other side.

(ii) Because we make these D to D passes as set plays -- to start with look at how Hunwick goes behind his own net and builds up speed to take the puck up ice and make a play with it. If -- or when -- we fail with this pass, due to the above we get in big trouble. Its in these situations, after a failed D to D pass, that someone all of a sudden stands in front of Hanks lap alone smiling after having banged home the puck.

Under Torts, Hunwick more likely would be in defensive positions infront of Hank when Klein gets the puck. Klein puts it up along the boards to Duke who stands in a set position along the boards. Hunwick is already standing infront of Hank defending in case Duke don't get the puck out.

We take a defensive risk here for sure.

(iii) There is no need to point out just how much trouble we get in if Hunwick's pass to Tony D is picked up at center ice by a Minny player storming up ice.

-----------------------------------------------------------------

The above and a few other things we have changed the last 24 months enables us to create a lot of trouble for very good teams in this league. But it also exposes us for a risk to play really crappy hockey when things aren't working. Also, its much harder to be consistent when you have a big creative element in your game. If you are tired, you can keep making the same play-book plays for 50 minutes of ice time in a 3x OT game. Its much harder to make the right play when you have 3-4 options every time you get the puck, in that 3 OT period if you get what I mean. Hence it takes a lot of time for creative and offensive minded teams to become successful, usually they need 3-4 years and some big failures before they get there..

Spot on.

One of the best posts I've ever read.

 

[AHB*]

Thought it was a terrible hit at first, after watching it 50 times, I really think it was just a fantastic hit....

 

[NYROrtsFan]

Derick Brassard put this team on his back in the third period. He was ****ing electric tonight.

I really think he's underrated around here. Big game player who comes up in big moments. Can never have enough of these types of guys.

 

[Vickers8]

Yup. Inexcusably poor understanding of the rulebook by the referee who issued the match penalty on Kreider's hit.

Kreider hit him on the goal line not 3-4 feet from the boards, he was 8-10 feet from the boards

 

[MysticLeviathan]

Kreider hit him on the goal line not 3-4 feet from the boards, he was 8-10 feet from the boards

Farther than that. The red line is 11 feet from the boards, and he hit him a tad bit in front of the red line, so probably about 12 feet out.

 

[AHB*]

I really think he's underrated around here. Big game player who comes up in big moments. Can never have enough of these types of guys.

I think he's pretty fairly rated, because when he's not playing like last night he's incredibly invisible and that's a bad thing for a Center.

 

[Idlerlee]

you don't sustain a concussion as the result of whiplash.

This is why assumptions are dangerous

 

[Levitate]

Spot on.

One of the best posts I've ever read.

I'd disagree a little with some of the "cons" though, as they seem more reminiscent of "old school hockey" thinking that people are starting to realize might not be the best way to do things. Throwing the puck back into a crowd of players because you know hey at least it's a crowd of players that should be "safer" is still essentially throwing away possession of the puck. Same with slapping it up the boards because if you attempt to make a pass it might be picked off. Slapping it up the boards is conceding possession, a pass likely isn't (as long as it's a good pass).

We're seeing that ceding possession of the puck is a bad thing and if you can avoid it without having to make incredibly risky plays, then that's what you should do. It was thought of as "safe" because well hey you can't turn the puck over in a dangerous spot if you make sure to get rid of it before you turn it over! But again, you're just giving the other team the puck right back, or at best you're creating another 50-50 fight for the loose puck

When the D (Klein was it?) receives the puck from Lundqvist and goes D to D over to Hunwick, it's obvious as all hell that it's a simple easy open pass and Hunwick has zero pressure on him. It'd be complete idiocy to NOT make that pass and Klein had a clear view to see that it wasn't dangerous for him to do so. Turning that puck up the boards behind him would have been a dangerous play.

But overall it relies on puck support and teammates being in the right spot...Lundqvist can move that puck to Klein because he knows that he is there and Klein knows he can make that pass to Hunwick because he's looking for it and Hunwick is in the correct position to receive it. Then Hunwick has to make the right play to move the puck up the ice, but Duclair presents himself as a target and stretches out the Wild's defense by heading up ice. That's the riskiest part, Hunwick can't make that pass if there's a player ready to jump up and intercept it, but Duclair's speed helps open up that lane.

 

[RothmanHockey]

NEW YORK – Frustration was mounting for the New York Rangers on Monday night, and it was manifesting itself in a variety of ways.

There was the reckless – Chris Kreider’s shove of Jonas Brodin into the boards in the final minute of the first period earned him a game misconduct. There was the violent – John Moore’s second-period elbow to Erik Haula’s head earned him a match penalty and an automatic supplemental discipline hearing, which is likely to end with Moore on the business end of a hefty suspension.

There was also the lackluster – that came in the form of defensive breakdowns and an offense that was literally a non-starter, as the team managed just eight shots on goal through a listless 40 minutes, which ended with the defending conference champions getting booed off the ice in a 3-0 hole.

But during the second intermission, that frustration turned into anger, which goaltender Henrik Lundqvist verbalized during a speech in the locker room.

http://www.insidehockey.com/frustration-anger-and-a-comeback/

 

[Riche16]

I'd disagree a little with some of the "cons" though, as they seem more reminiscent of "old school hockey" thinking that people are starting to realize might not be the best way to do things. Throwing the puck back into a crowd of players because you know hey at least it's a crowd of players that should be "safer" is still essentially throwing away possession of the puck. Same with slapping it up the boards because if you attempt to make a pass it might be picked off. Slapping it up the boards is conceding possession, a pass likely isn't (as long as it's a good pass).

We're seeing that ceding possession of the puck is a bad thing and if you can avoid it without having to make incredibly risky plays, then that's what you should do. It was thought of as "safe" because well hey you can't turn the puck over in a dangerous spot if you make sure to get rid of it before you turn it over! But again, you're just giving the other team the puck right back, or at best you're creating another 50-50 fight for the loose puck

When the D (Klein was it?) receives the puck from Lundqvist and goes D to D over to Hunwick, it's obvious as all hell that it's a simple easy open pass and Hunwick has zero pressure on him. It'd be complete idiocy to NOT make that pass and Klein had a clear view to see that it wasn't dangerous for him to do so. Turning that puck up the boards behind him would have been a dangerous play.

But overall it relies on puck support and teammates being in the right spot...Lundqvist can move that puck to Klein because he knows that he is there and Klein knows he can make that pass to Hunwick because he's looking for it and Hunwick is in the correct position to receive it. Then Hunwick has to make the right play to move the puck up the ice, but Duclair presents himself as a target and stretches out the Wild's defense by heading up ice. That's the riskiest part, Hunwick can't make that pass if there's a player ready to jump up and intercept it, but Duclair's speed helps open up that lane.

Fair enough... I was sort of more agreeing with the fact that we would NEVER do that two years ago.

Hank's pass alone would have never happened, let alone the stretch pass to Duke.

 

[Levitate]

It wasn't an elbow :argh: