Mikko Rantanen Part IV - Baby Got Back

[Raucherhusten]

Makes post about leaguewide trends, gets response focused on specific counter-examples that in no way disprove what's happening to the league on the whole

The planet's temperature can't be rising, it was cold where I live yesterday!

"Never mess with a working system" is my response to that.

The fact that a player was pretty much forced to pay his dues during the fist half of his career just to make the big bucks and doing "his thing" in the second half, like it or not, DID work. And that half of the league is already at or even over the cap should show you that it's getting tricky. Changing this whole system won't end well and will also, as a side effect, change the UFA (and even the rental) market completely.

 

[Balthazar]

One thing that isn't being talked about is if RFA's take a much bigger piece of the pie, other players will pay for it. This isn't new money, it's UFA's and bottom 6ers money.

It will be interesting to see how it turns out because current RFA's on smaller deals expect big deals for their UFA days, but if things change they'll get the worst of both worlds.

I know I'd not be happy and I wonder how the NHLPA will react internally.

 

[JLo217]

One thing that isn't talked about at all is if RFA's take a much bigger piece of the pie, other players will pay for it. This isn't new money, it's UFA's and bottom 6ers money.

It will be interesting to see how it turns out because current RFA's on smaller deals expect big deals for their UFA days, but if things change they'll get the worst of both worlds.

I know I'd not be happy and I wonder how the NHLPA will react internally.

It’s a good point. I wonder if we see a divide in the PA soon.

 

[Balthazar]

It’s a good point. I wonder if we see a divide in the PA soon.

If I had to guess they don't like what happened in Toronto at all. 4 players take half the money and the other half has to be divided between the other 20+ players. Unions really don't like this kind of stuff, they historically prefer to raise the bottom level.

 

[JLo217]

If I had to guess they don't like what happened in Toronto at all. 4 players take half the money and the other half has to be divided between the other 20+ players. Unions really don't like this kind of stuff, they historically prefer to raise the bottom level.

It would be pretty funny if the players opted to lock themselves out

 

[Raucherhusten]

If I had to guess they don't like what happened in Toronto at all. 4 players take half the money and the other half has to be divided between the other 20+ players. Unions really don't like this kind of stuff, they historically prefer to raise the bottom level.

This whole system needs some serious tweeking if they want it to work. Paying UFAs and RFAs big money will lead to half the league being on ELCs or league minimum contracts. And this can't be a good thing when it comes to the quality of the game. I can see a lot of vets leaving the NHL because they can make more money in the KHL in the near future.

 

[wayninja]

I keep coming in here to hopefully find some real news but all I see is pointless bickering. Oh well hopefully he signs soon.

We'll try to keep the bickering meaningful

 

[the_fan]

Avs are not gonna have another player making 10 mill. They can easily afford MacK and Rantanen for that much or little more even. The cap isnt gonna stay at 80 mill

 

[cgf]

"Never mess with a working system" is my response to that.

The fact that a player was pretty much forced to pay his dues during the fist half of his career just to make the big bucks and doing "his thing" in the second half, like it or not, DID work. And that half of the league is already at or even over the cap should show you that it's getting tricky. Changing this whole system won't end well and will also, as a side effect, change the UFA (and even the rental) market completely.

It worked so well that I had to watch the KHL for years because Nashville tried to strong-arm my favorite player into a massive underpayment and he was having none of it...

 

[Raucherhusten]

Avs are not gonna have another player making 10 mill. They can easily afford MacK and Rantanen for that much or little more even. The cap isnt gonna stay at 80 mill

Are you sure about that? What if Makar is EKs second comming? Or Byram? What if Newhook is waaay better than we all expect? And they all want HUGE contracts right from the get go. Or what if we are trying to add Hall next year? So many questions...

And besides, yes, the cap will go up. But by how much? Rumors are that they are even talking about a flat cap for the next 2 years because they want to get that escrow thingy under control.

Even more questions and reasons for Sakic to be careful.

 

[BleedWell]

Are you sure about that? What if Makar is EKs second comming? Or Byram? What if Newhook is waaay better than we all expect? And they all want HUGE contracts right from the get go. Or what if we are trying to add Hall next year? So many questions...

And besides, yes, the cap will go up. But by how much? Rumors are that they are even talking about a flat cap for the next 2 years because they want to get that escrow thingy under control.

Even more questions and reasons for Sakic to be careful.

What if what if what if.
Let's not pay Mikko cause Newhook might wanna get payed in five years.
You are the worst

 

[Raucherhusten]

What if what if what if.
Let's not pay Mikko cause Newhook might wanna get payed in five years.
You are the worst

Love you too.

 

[the_fan]

Are you sure about that? What if Makar is EKs second comming? Or Byram? What if Newhook is waaay better than we all expect? And they all want HUGE contracts right from the get go? Or what if we are trying to add Hall next year? So many questions...

And besides, yes, the cap will go up. But by how much? Rumors are that they are even talking about a flat for the next 2 years because they want to get that excrow thingy under control.

Even more questions and reasons for Sakic to be careful.

You're talking bunch of ifs.

Realistically I dont see Makar, Byram or Newhook being 10 mill players. And Hall will most likely resign with NJ, because they are building a good young team with Hughes etc..

If the cap is at over 90 mill as projected, they can afford to have Mack and Rantanen making 10+, the next highest paid player on the Avs will be Landeskog at 8+

So let's say the top 3 MacK-Mikko-Landy combined make 30 or 32 mill, they'll still have roughly 60 mill to pay the others. I see Makar being a 8 mill player, same with Byram perhaps. Girard is already on a team friendly contract. So you'll have your top 3 D at around 21 mill or so.

So the top 3 forwards and top 3 D combined should make around 55 mill or so roughly. They'll still have about 40 mill to go around for players like Newhook etc..

 

[BleedWell]

Love you too.

Too much lipstick. We can't afford it. I bet there will be a little bit cheaper lipstick in few years from now. And if not then we are better with out it.

 

[EscapedGoat]

No offense to the_fan or bleedwell but this is the first time I've ever agreed with one of their posts and they occurred moments from each other.

This has to be one of the signs of the end of the world or something.

 

[Raucherhusten]

You're talking bunch of ifs.

Realistically I dont see Makar, Byram or Newhook being 10 mill players. And Hall will most likely resign with NJ, because they are building a good young team with Hughes etc..

If the cap is at over 90 mill as projected, they can afford to have Mack and Rantanen making 10+, the next highest paid player on the Avs will be Landeskog at 8+

So let's say the top 3 MacK-Mikko-Landy combined make 30 or 32 mill, they'll still have roughly 60 mill to pay the others. I see Makar being a 8 mill player, same with Byram perhaps. Girard is already on a team friendly contract. So you'll have your top 3 D at around 21 mill or so.

So the top 3 forwards and top 3 D combined should make around 55 mill or so roughly. They'll still have about 40 mill to go around for players like Newhook etc..

First of all Hall was just an example that high profil UFAs will cost money. A lot. If the team, that we have right now, isn't good enough to make it all the way they will probably at least explore that option. They kind of have to (actually they already did going hard after the Breadman) or they'll end up like the Jets.

Second of all. You should never gamble with money that you don't have. The cap was about to be at 83.5 NOW and look where we are. And again, the next big boost will come after Seattle's first season - 3 years from now. Are you really want to gamble on that very well knowing that in this spam we not only have to re-sign Mikko but Landy, Makar, Byram and Grubi along with a couple of others?

And yes, as it looks right now, we obviously can fit two 10+ million players under the cap. But don't you agree that it could benefit us in the long run if we get Mikko for 9 instead of 10, Landy for 7 instead of 8 and the big one, MacKinnon for maybe 13m instead of 15m? If we start this "meh we have the cap space so pay the man" trend with Mikko there is no way that we get the others to play ball.

So yes, is it annoying as f*** that Rants - our second best player - isn't signed yet with all the cap space we have? You bet your ass it is. But do i understand why Joe is doing what he is doing? 100%!

 

[the_fan]

First if all Hall was just an example that high profil UFAs will cost money. A lot. If our team, that we have right now, isn't good enough to make it all the way they will probably at least explore that option. They kind of have to or they'll end up like the Jets.

Second of all. You should never gamble with money that you don't have. The cap was about to be at 83.5 NOW and look where we are. And again, the next big boost will come after Saeattle's first season - 3 years from now. Are you really want to gamble on that very well knowing that in this spam we not only have to re-sign Mikko but Landy, Makar, Byram, Grubi along with a couple others?

And yes, as it looks right now, we obviously can fit two 10+ million players under the cap. But don't you agree that it could benefit us in the long run if we get Mikko for 9 instead of 10, Landy for 7 instead of 8 and the big one, MacKinnon for maybe 13m instead of 15m? If we start this "meh we have the cap space so pay the man" trend with Mikko there is no way that we get the others to play ball.

So yes, is it annoying as **** that Rants - our second best player - isn't signed yet with all the cap space we have? You bet your ass it is. But do i understand why Joe is doing what he is doing? 100%!

I absolutely agree. I'm just saying if push comes to shove, and they have to absolutely give Mikko 10 to get him signed, they can do it and make it work, but yeah, less is better obviously to be able to comfortably fit everyone under the cap and sign a big name UFA and stuff if needed

 

[avsfan09]

So, you were only guaranteeing that there would be a future? Not exactly a bold prediction.



I'm not saying Sakic doesn't show players respect or that he's some bad negotiator or horse trader. I'm simply saying that constantly prioritizing the future over the present means that you are always preparing for success but never achieving it. I agree that simply trying to buy a team is a bad strategy. You need to make guys prove themselves. You need guys to buy into the system. But you can't be cheap when they buy in and prove themselves. Mikko seems to have done both, and the market isn't shrinking. Trying to cling to some notion that you can simply will players into taking team friendly deals and never budging is going to limit the quality of players available to you.

I just can't think of a situation where we go into the season with 14 million in cap space and Mikko on the bench and that's a good strategy. I'm no GM, so I'm not going to pretend like I know best, but this just isn't a good look anyway you slice it for the talent we have on this team now.

It just seems too early to say that Sakic isn’t being fair here. If it comes out he wasn’t going higher than 9 than yeah he has a point but if it’s about Sakic pushing a bit back on term than you may be right. Point being it’s still a lot of speculation.

 

[avsfan09]

This should be stickied at the top of this forum.

It’s not true though. If you are trying to continually grow your club with the future in mind it doesn’t rule out winning in the present as well. You need to be forward thinking or else you are creating future problems.

 

[avsfan09]

No. It means that at some point you need to plan for the present and that you can't just keep kicking the can down the road ad infinitum.

Where are you arguing that Sakic didn’t plan for the present? I think the argument is whether you plan for tomorrow or try to set it up that you have the ability to constantly grow rather than take a leap forward for one season. Tampa vs Toronto. Both are competitive. One has simultaneously put their future and present in good standing while the other squandered the future for a shorter peak. It’s not so simple.

 

[Metallo]

The constant talk about player’s contracts is removing some of the fun of NHL hockey. I’m getting tired of that shit.

 

[avsfan09]

You know, having seen how agents conduct business I am still on the side where I believe Clark more than Dater or whatever Luit says in public. True both sides have an agenda, but agents really are the scum of the Earth, especially in the other sport I follow in football. They're like defence lawyers.

10/10 post. Nailed it.

 

[cgf]

Where are you arguing that Sakic didn’t plan for the present? I think the argument is whether you plan for tomorrow or try to set it up that you have the ability to constantly grow rather than take a leap forward for one season. Tampa vs Toronto. Both are competitive. One has simultaneously put their future and present in good standing while the other squandered the future for a shorter peak. It’s not so simple.

This season and the last one?

 

[wayninja]

It just seems too early to say that Sakic isn’t being fair here. If it comes out he wasn’t going higher than 9 than yeah he has a point but if it’s about Sakic pushing a bit back on term than you may be right. Point being it’s still a lot of speculation.

I didn't say sakic wasn't being fair. I have no idea what he's offering, so I can't speculate on that. I just know that we FINALLY have a good team. Probably the best in a long time. It would be a failure if we squander that.

 

[wayninja]

It’s not true though. If you are trying to continually grow your club with the future in mind it doesn’t rule out winning in the present as well. You need to be forward thinking or else you are creating future problems.

People are making this too stark. The point of this was to simply warn about sacrificing the present in order to preserve the future. That's all. There's truth to it, and there's no reason you can't "do both" to some degree.