Player Discussion Mikko Koskinen

ThePhoenixx

Registered User
Aug 7, 2005
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You don't think it's sensible and realistic to think that giving a goaltender who hasn't played in North American for 6 years, has played 4 NHL games, and struggled during the pre-season a $2.5M contract with a NMC was a poor decision rather than the theoretical consideration that he'll pan out based on nothing but the fact that he improved from terrible to decent in a couple pre season games?

I'm happy with my wording thanks ;)

If he plays poorly then it is a bad contract. If he plays well it is a good contract.

Pragmatic people have to wait for some actual data before making a decision. Anything else is what if theoretical-based musing usually primed by pure Chia-hate emotion. The exact opposite of pragmatism.

I think the word you are looking for is pessimistic. This is the definition of those who assume the worst is going to happen. That the contract is already a bad one without him playing a single regular season game. That is pessimistic. Certainly not pragmatic.

Pragmatic people wait for results. Facts. Then they decide. They don't play the what if game that critics are playing. Critics are making assumptions. Pragmatic people despise making assumptions.
 

guymez

The Seldom Seen Kid
Mar 3, 2004
33,049
12,691
If he plays poorly then it is a bad contract. If he plays well it is a good contract.

Pragmatic people have to wait for some actual data before making a decision. Anything else is what if theoretical-based musing usually primed by pure Chia-hate emotion. The exact opposite of pragmatism.

I think the word you are looking for is pessimistic. This is the definition of those who assume the worst is going to happen. That the contract is already a bad one without him playing a single regular season game. That is pessimistic. Certainly not pragmatic.

Pragmatic people wait for results. Facts. Then they decide. They don't play the what if game that critics are playing. Critics are making assumptions. Pragmatic people despise making assumptions.

I completely agree with you on this although I would suggest that many of these people are more like cynics than critics.
 
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Jimmi McJenkins

Sometimes miracles
Jan 12, 2006
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He blocked me on twitter after I said he looked like Milhouse.
He's been a tool for a long time. I don't know if TSN1260 still uses him as fill in or if they finally got the message that Tencer on the radio is a full tune out.

He needs to go get a job in insurance and just go away.
 

StevenF1919

Registered User
Oct 9, 2017
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Edmonton
He's been a tool for a long time. I don't know if TSN1260 still uses him as fill in or if they finally got the message that Tencer on the radio is a full tune out.

He needs to go get a job in insurance and just go away.
Pretty sure he's related to someone pretty high up and that's how he got the job in the first place. Don't think he's on the radio anymore though.
 

joestevens29

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Apr 30, 2009
52,765
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He's been a tool for a long time. I don't know if TSN1260 still uses him as fill in or if they finally got the message that Tencer on the radio is a full tune out.

He needs to go get a job in insurance and just go away.
He's still on 1260 from time to time and is way better than his 630 ched days. He's evolved and matured IMO.
 

bucks_oil

Registered User
Aug 25, 2005
8,386
4,591
that is the essence of pre-season. We really don't have enough time to really make the call, especially with goalies, where consistency is more important than "making the big save"

But I'm confident that Koskinen is a good guy to bet on

As a goalie myself I am always struck by the differential assessment of "good goal" and "bad goal" when I come to the boards. I can almost immediately tell the difference between a poster who hasn't played any hockey, or if they have, what position they've played.

I'm not calling you out... in fact I agree with you that "consistency" is important. But any goalie I know would define that as "not making any mistakes", whereas many casual fans, offensive minded forwards, etc... might define it by >920 SPCT every night or some other measure which is completely devoid of context.

If we are speaking of the Winnipeg game, I can tell you I saw one mistake by Koskinen and it was on the 5th goal. He certainly can anticipate that the pass was coming and he got himself frozen to the post... failed to make the big push across on the 2-1 pass... it happens sometimes when you go into autopilot and sorta give up (mentally) on the play. Had he made the push, he may surprise himself and make that save... which would be "the big save".

The rest of those goals did not involve any obvious mistake, he just got beat by good shots... happens to the best.

My point... a top NHL goalie can be "perfect" in terms of making no mistakes, for a stretch of games and still be at 0.880 SPCT based on how his team has played... but over the season, provided his team is reasonable, it should balance back out.
 

joestevens29

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Apr 30, 2009
52,765
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As a goalie myself I am always struck by the differential assessment of "good goal" and "bad goal" when I come to the boards. I can almost immediately tell the difference between a poster who hasn't played any hockey, or if they have, what position they've played.

I'm not calling you out... in fact I agree with you that "consistency" is important. But any goalie I know would define that as "not making any mistakes", whereas many casual fans, offensive minded forwards, etc... might define it by >920 SPCT every night or some other measure which is completely devoid of context.

If we are speaking of the Winnipeg game, I can tell you I saw one mistake by Koskinen and it was on the 5th goal. He certainly can anticipate that the pass was coming and he got himself frozen to the post... failed to make the big push across on the 2-1 pass... it happens sometimes when you go into autopilot and sorta give up (mentally) on the play. Had he made the push, he may surprise himself and make that save... which would be "the big save".

The rest of those goals did not involve any obvious mistake, he just got beat by good shots... happens to the best.

My point... a top NHL goalie can be "perfect" in terms of making no mistakes, for a stretch of games and still be at 0.880 SPCT based on how his team has played... but over the season, provided his team is reasonable, it should balance back out.
The problem with bigger guys as well is they don't look like they make a lot of big saves as they cover a lot of the net.

Applies for good positional goalies as well. If a goalie is making a highlight of the night save I often watch to see why. A guy scrambling to make a big save is usually at fault for having to scramble in the first place.
 

bucks_oil

Registered User
Aug 25, 2005
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The problem with bigger guys as well is they don't look like they make a lot of big saves as they cover a lot of the net.

Applies for good positional goalies as well. If a goalie is making a highlight of the night save I often watch to see why. A guy scrambling to make a big save is usually at fault for having to scramble in the first place.

Well exactly... that is true. The point is all about mistakes... those that you get away with (by scrambling to make a big save) vs those that you don't get away with...

And embedded in my post, is this point: most eyes cannot pick up the true mistakes.

Examples:
1) A "positional" goalie gets sniped top corner, but he's big and he's too deep in his net. He shoulda been out at the top of the crease so that the same shot hits him off the shoulder. Mistake! Even though it doesn't look like one.
2) The same "positional", big goalie IS at the top of the crease, but there is a slap pass to a guy at the side of the net who tips it in. MISTAKE! An aware goalie would know that forward is there and would play a little deeper so that he had a chance to track back to the post and at least cover the bottom of the net.
3) A smaller "reflex" goalie is aggressively challenging a shooter... shooter snipes it five hole cleanly from 15 feet. It's probably a mistake... that goalie is fast enough to close that five hole. And the goalie probably agrees.
4) The same goalie is aggressively challenging, a point shot comes 5-hole through traffic... goalie gets 80% of it and still goes in. 50 posts in our GDT about how "weak" that goal was... due almost entirely to the fact that it "trickled in" and he got most of it. The truth is, he didn't see it till last minute and did well to get as much of it as he did. There was no mistake on the play.
 
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Mr Positive

Cap Crunch Incoming
Nov 20, 2013
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As a goalie myself I am always struck by the differential assessment of "good goal" and "bad goal" when I come to the boards. I can almost immediately tell the difference between a poster who hasn't played any hockey, or if they have, what position they've played.

I'm not calling you out... in fact I agree with you that "consistency" is important. But any goalie I know would define that as "not making any mistakes", whereas many casual fans, offensive minded forwards, etc... might define it by >920 SPCT every night or some other measure which is completely devoid of context.

If we are speaking of the Winnipeg game, I can tell you I saw one mistake by Koskinen and it was on the 5th goal. He certainly can anticipate that the pass was coming and he got himself frozen to the post... failed to make the big push across on the 2-1 pass... it happens sometimes when you go into autopilot and sorta give up (mentally) on the play. Had he made the push, he may surprise himself and make that save... which would be "the big save".

The rest of those goals did not involve any obvious mistake, he just got beat by good shots... happens to the best.

My point... a top NHL goalie can be "perfect" in terms of making no mistakes, for a stretch of games and still be at 0.880 SPCT based on how his team has played... but over the season, provided his team is reasonable, it should balance back out.
#1
I have no goaltending experience, and never played organized team hockey, but some informal stuff.

#2
I have watched the game for a long time, and so yes, a lot of times how we judge individual goals is unfair, but all analysis is unfair. A GM's performance has a lot of luck involved. A goalie's performance depends a lot on the quality of defense, and luck. If a goalie lets in a lot of goals that are forgivable, they will still get a lot of heat, and all teams do this. Goalies are expected to steal a few "sure things" in a game.

-
and overall I have to say that Koskinen has been solid, and the times he looked bad was largely due to small sample giving too much microscope to some goals that look weak, but like you say aren't really weak. I've known this for a long time too, and defended Dubnyk on those grounds.

-
and even more overall, my review of Koskinen is that it is incomplete. He has done enough to warrant a longer look, but we need the longer look to really judge him. I don't want a highlight reel. I want a good save percent, at least one that is good compared to what other goalies on our team get. And, I really like Koskinen and feel that Chiarelli has made a good move by getting him, even with the NMC.
 

Spawn

Something in the water
Feb 20, 2006
43,642
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As a whole he's been bad in pre-season. A lot of sugar coating going on. Sample size be damned. An .850sv% or whatever the hell he has through 4 games doesn't cut it.

Better hope he figures it out by his first start in the NHL. If a backup goalie is playing 15-20 games we can't afford bad starts while he tries to get comfortable.
 

Drivesaitl

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Oct 8, 2017
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Cologne Sharks score around 2.25 goals/game in DEL and scored 3 against Koskinen. Should have had a couple more except Jones flubbed an empty net and their were other missed chances. Not viewing this in isolation, Koski has been poor in preseason. That continued today. It would have been interesting to see him in the shootout actually.

An interesting comment in GDT however was the comment that Koski can't be blamed on any of the goals. Except people blame Talbot every time there is a goal. Even saying that its a goalies job to make difficult stops. Koski only had 20 sog to deal with and half of those were routine stops against a club that always has difficulty scoring goals.
 

Trizent

Registered User
Mar 4, 2005
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I'm not amazed that a team gave him a shot at being a back up. I'm amazed that so many teams were after him that the market for him was 2.5 M. That is a lot of money for someone who thus far has been relatively meh. A lot of teams thought highly of him, hopefully his play reaches that level.
 

joestevens29

Registered User
Apr 30, 2009
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As a whole he's been bad in pre-season. A lot of sugar coating going on. Sample size be damned. An .850sv% or whatever the hell he has through 4 games doesn't cut it.

Better hope he figures it out by his first start in the NHL. If a backup goalie is playing 15-20 games we can't afford bad starts while he tries to get comfortable.
I honestly can't remember if it was Struds, Gregor or Rishaug, but they brought up Talbot not wanting to play in Germany and the team not wanting to play him.

Reason why, they didn't want him to be taking shots from different angles due to the different ice. So if one game is potentially going to screw up Talbot, there is a lot of potentially that it's still taking Koskinen time to get use to the angles as well.

I agree with everything you say and really think a month in the AHL would be best for Koskinen, but I do also see why Koskinen is having some issues adjusting.
 
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bone

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Jun 24, 2003
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Cologne Sharks score around 2.25 goals/game in DEL and scored 3 against Koskinen. Should have had a couple more except Jones flubbed an empty net and their were other missed chances. Not viewing this in isolation, Koski has been poor in preseason. That continued today. It would have been interesting to see him in the shootout actually.

An interesting comment in GDT however was the comment that Koski can't be blamed on any of the goals. Except people blame Talbot every time there is a goal. Even saying that its a goalies job to make difficult stops. Koski only had 20 sog to deal with and half of those were routine stops against a club that always has difficulty scoring goals.

I seem to remember a lot of people giving Cam the benefit of the doubt particularly early in the year last year. The narrative only changed to being that at some point he needs to make the save once the sample size was large with a poor save percentage, particularly his save percentage in the first 5 minutes of games last year.

Right now with Koskinen, sample size is still small enough that I think it is fair to consider the quality of the goals instead of just looking at the numbers. That said, 3 of his 4 starts were sub-.900 goaltending and I'm having a hard time remembering many really big saves. That can't continue into the season. All in all the jury is still truly out on him in my opinion, I don't think he's proven to be a complete failure yet, but
 

joestevens29

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Apr 30, 2009
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I think they wanted to get him in sooner, but losing those first two games the way they did probably makes them wait a bit longer. I'd think they'd want his first game to be on the road rather than at home.
They gave Cam the option for Saturday, so I'm not sure if that means they want Koskinen in sooner or if maybe they thought Cam didn't want to play his old team.

Quite a few have predicted the 28th as I believe that's our first back to back
 

Niten Ichi Ryu

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Jul 1, 2018
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Wasn't he promised 30 games? Both Chia and Todd in the off season, mentioned how Talbot's games would be reduced and the back-up utilized more, so Cam doesn't burn out. Almost every team has already played their back-up at least once. Todd did the same thing last year, just kept running Talbot in the ground. Koskinen needs games, and Talbot needs rest. Very simple. I hope he gets the nod for the home opener
 
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