Confirmed with Link: Mike Green to Detroit 3 years/6m per

[Frk It]

Expect DeKeyser's numbers to go up if he and Green cement as a pairing.

Really the only way I could envision some of the absurd point totals people have thrown out for DeKeyser just happened for him. He landed a top 5 Offensive D-man that should help his point totals a lot.

His PP usage I think disappears completely though. So even if he increased the ES pts I think his totals stay the same.

We will see though. Depends on what Blashill goes with. I'm thinking Green, Kronwall, Smith and then 1 forward potentially for point men.

I do expect Green and Dekeyser to be a dynamite pairing though.

 

[Pavels Dog]

Green was a beauty duo with Ovi on the PP. He is awesome at passing it right into the wheelhouse, and does it at some pretty clever times.

Maybe he can do the same for our finnish Ovie-lite

Hurt a bit last year to see some of the sloppy passes Pulkkinen received on the PP. Kronwall/Dekeyser are not on Green's level when it comes to that stuff.

 

[Frk It]

I just talked to him the other day. I went back and watched a bunch of his shifts, and he’s my kind of player in the sense that I like a defenseman who can move the puck. And as I said when we signed him, the best defense is getting back the puck and moving it out of your zone.

I just talked to him the other day. I went back and watched a bunch of his shifts, and he’s my kind of player in the sense that I like a defenseman who can move the puck. And as I said when we signed him, the best defense is getting back the puck and moving it out of your zone.

http://www.detroitnews.com/story/sp...3/new-red-wings-coach-jeff-blashill/30604193/

 

[HockeyinHD]

Kronwall is one of the best power play defenseman in the league.

13th in total PP IT (16th PP IT/g)

8th in PP points.

t-26th in goals.

He was a stat aggregator on the PP. Got a ton of time back there and racked up a ton of assists (7th) because of it.

If I gave you a list (just running down PP IT totals) of Karlsson, Yandle, OEL, Subban, Suter, Streit, Doughty, Burns, Keith, Byfuglien, Josi, Letang, Weber, Barrie and Schultz... which of those guys would you kick off to put Kronwall on it, as far as PP QB'ing goes?

How about this one. Is Kronwall a better PP QB than... Mike Green?

 

[InjuredChoker]

13th in total PP IT (16th PP IT/g)

8th in PP points.

t-26th in goals.

He was a stat aggregator on the PP. Got a ton of time back there and racked up a ton of assists (7th) because of it.

If I gave you a list (just running down PP IT totals) of Karlsson, Yandle, OEL, Subban, Suter, Streit, Doughty, Burns, Keith, Byfuglien, Josi, Letang, Weber, Barrie and Schultz... which of those guys would you kick off to put Kronwall on it, as far as PP QB'ing goes?

How about this one. Is Kronwall a better PP QB than... Mike Green?

kronwall was 7th in points per minutes and 9th in assists per minutes last season (at least 100 mins on the pp).

bolded are worse PP QBs than kronwall. maybe josi and burns too. subban is also more of a trigger man like weber but i think that's more on how he's used but could have skills to do more.

green is probably better.

 

[Frk It]

13th in total PP IT (16th PP IT/g)

8th in PP points.

t-26th in goals.

He was a stat aggregator on the PP. Got a ton of time back there and racked up a ton of assists (7th) because of it.

If I gave you a list (just running down PP IT totals) of Karlsson, Yandle, OEL, Subban, Suter, Streit, Doughty, Burns, Keith, Byfuglien, Josi, Letang, Weber, Barrie and Schultz... which of those guys would you kick off to put Kronwall on it, as far as PP QB'ing goes?

How about this one. Is Kronwall a better PP QB than... Mike Green?

I'll say Green is a better PP QB all day, but I have thought that for years. I actually predicted Green to have more points than Kronwall this upcoming season in another thread.

Anways... Kronwall was 8th last year in PP points among defenseman, 7th the year before, and 5th the year before that. So those other names might look sexier on paper, but like I said, Kronwall is one of the best PP defenseman in the league. He's been top 10 in power play points 3 years in a row at his position.

 

[HockeyinHD]

Anways... Kronwall was 8th last year in PP points among defenseman, 7th the year before, and 5th the year before that. So those other names might look sexier on paper, but like I said, Kronwall is one of the best PP defenseman in the league. He's been top 10 in power play points 3 years in a row at his position.

And he's been in the top 10 in PP IT in two of those years as well, and those points are nearly all assists.

2012-13: t-28th in PP goals among dmen.
2013-14: t-12th.
2014-15: t-26th.

That's what stat aggregation looks like. A bunch of the easier points from assists on +man units, relatively few direct points from scoring goals. 2013-14 was the only year of the past 3 I can characterize as particularly strong PP work from Kronwall, and even then we're talking a possibly top 6-10 performance, which I suppose could loosely fall under 'one of the best' depending on how forgiving one feels like being with inclusion and range.

And even that year something like 13 or 14 of his 20 PP assists were seconds.

I don't think he's terrible back there or anything, but the list of guys I'd rather than him on the PP point isn't what I would describe as 'brief'.

 

[Frk It]

And he's been in the top 10 in PP IT in two of those years as well, and those points are nearly all assists.

2012-13: t-28th in PP goals among dmen.
2013-14: t-12th.
2014-15: t-26th.

That's what stat aggregation looks like. A bunch of the easier points from assists on +man units, relatively few direct points from scoring goals. 2013-14 was the only year of the past 3 I can characterize as particularly strong PP work from Kronwall, and even then we're talking a possibly top 6-10 performance, which I suppose could loosely fall under 'one of the best' depending on how forgiving one feels like being with inclusion and range.

And even that year something like 13 or 14 of his 20 PP assists were seconds.

I don't think he's terrible back there or anything, but the list of guys I'd rather than him on the PP point isn't what I would describe as 'brief'.

A person who is top 10 in points is also top 10 in IT? Shocker.

Why are you splitting hairs over this?

 

[HockeyinHD]

A person who is top 10 in points is also top 10 in IT? Shocker.

Why are you splitting hairs over this?

I think the difference between "Kronwall is one of the best power play defenseman in the league" and what Kronwall actually is possesses rather more girth than a hair which needs to be split.

I've illustrated the statistical reasoning behind that opinion, I've included a hardly complete list of 15 guys who'd be selected pretty easily over Kronwall for that role, and you've already mentioned he's no longer even the best PP dman on his own team.

He's a decent guy on the PP but not particularly puissant there, due in large part to not having a plus shot. He rolls up a ton of PP points (something you specifically sited as evidentiary support of your statement) due to playing a ton of time in that role.

Detroit's PP has wildly fluctuated from 15th or 18th in the NHL to best in the NHL the past three seasons, and Kronwall's play has remained fairly consistent over that timeframe. This lends me to suspect that his performance is secondary (at best) to that unit's success, which calls into question how effective he actually is.

He's a good player. Detroit is fortunate to have drafted and retained him. He's not "one of the best power play defenseman in the league", and it's not being terribly fair to any player to hang such unearned praise on them.

 

[WingsInRed]

And he's been in the top 10 in PP IT in two of those years as well, and those points are nearly all assists.

2012-13: t-28th in PP goals among dmen.
2013-14: t-12th.
2014-15: t-26th.

That's what stat aggregation looks like. A bunch of the easier points from assists on +man units, relatively few direct points from scoring goals. 2013-14 was the only year of the past 3 I can characterize as particularly strong PP work from Kronwall, and even then we're talking a possibly top 6-10 performance, which I suppose could loosely fall under 'one of the best' depending on how forgiving one feels like being with inclusion and range.

And even that year something like 13 or 14 of his 20 PP assists were seconds.

I don't think he's terrible back there or anything, but the list of guys I'd rather than him on the PP point isn't what I would describe as 'brief'.

Too logical, you're not going to get very far trying to convince anyone on this board that Kronwall isn't the best d-man in the league, I've been there. The delusion is real when it comes to him.

 

[Perfect Human]

Get him off of the 1st power play unit.
Green is better
maybe just use him for PKing and shut down D?
the KronWall hasnt been as prevalent in recent years, but albeit he has also been healthier than when he was being liberal with his body

 

[InjuredChoker]

I think the difference between "Kronwall is one of the best power play defenseman in the league" and what Kronwall actually is possesses rather more girth than a hair which needs to be split.

I've illustrated the statistical reasoning behind that opinion, I've included a hardly complete list of 15 guys who'd be selected pretty easily over Kronwall for that role, and you've already mentioned he's no longer even the best PP dman on his own team.

He's a decent guy on the PP but not particularly puissant there, due in large part to not having a plus shot. He rolls up a ton of PP points (something you specifically sited as evidentiary support of your statement) due to playing a ton of time in that role.

Detroit's PP has wildly fluctuated from 15th or 18th in the NHL to best in the NHL the past three seasons, and Kronwall's play has remained fairly consistent over that timeframe. This lends me to suspect that his performance is secondary (at best) to that unit's success, which calls into question how effective he actually is.

He's a good player. Detroit is fortunate to have drafted and retained him. He's not "one of the best power play defenseman in the league", and it's not being terribly fair to any player to hang such unearned praise on them.

do you actually watch those guys play or just go by points on NHL.com (and not even pp points) and assume they are better than kronwall?

some of those guys on your list aren't good PP QBs at all.

as for the second bolded, teams usually have 2 PP units. kronwall doesn't play on both of them. those second units were bad to medicore in 13/14 seasons. kronwall's units scoring, when kronwall has been on the ice, has been consistent and very good post-lidström. i don't think kronwall is responsible on how the other unit does when he's sitting on the bench. 12/13 detroit had middle of pack PP. when kronwall was on the ice, red wings pp scored at the 6th best rate on the league. actually 5th as two guys were on the same team. pretty much the same in 13/14. for those 2 seasons, detroit had the 14th best PP (on scoring rate). kronwall was 6th best and of those 5 guys, 2 played with the pens and 2 with the caps.

only buffalo had worse PP than avs last season. tyson barrie was their PP QB. last year they didn't score well either when barrie was on the ice (that happened with the other unit). kronwall has also scored much better than him on the powerplay. what makes barrie ''pretty easily'' over kronwall. barrie isn't even the best PP guy on his own team nor are some other guys there. but guys that are better than them on their teams aren't even listed.

some other guys on your list don't have plus shot and have medicore shots, worse than kronwall.

 

[InjuredChoker]

Too logical, you're not going to get very far trying to convince anyone on this board that Kronwall isn't the best d-man in the league, I've been there. The delusion is real when it comes to him.

i'm probably as low as anyone here on kronwall (overall) but at least the past 3 seasons, he has been excellent on the power play and is certainly proven to be better than guys like suter, doughty etc.

 

[redwingsphan]

Too logical, you're not going to get very far trying to convince anyone on this board that Kronwall isn't the best d-man in the league, I've been there. The delusion is real when it comes to him.

That's some great **** there. Committing a logical fallacy while calling something too logical.

 

[ArGarBarGar]

And he's been in the top 10 in PP IT in two of those years as well, and those points are nearly all assists.

2012-13: t-28th in PP goals among dmen.
2013-14: t-12th.
2014-15: t-26th.

That's what stat aggregation looks like. A bunch of the easier points from assists on +man units, relatively few direct points from scoring goals. 2013-14 was the only year of the past 3 I can characterize as particularly strong PP work from Kronwall, and even then we're talking a possibly top 6-10 performance, which I suppose could loosely fall under 'one of the best' depending on how forgiving one feels like being with inclusion and range.

And even that year something like 13 or 14 of his 20 PP assists were seconds.

I don't think he's terrible back there or anything, but the list of guys I'd rather than him on the PP point isn't what I would describe as 'brief'.

Would you put Dekeyser ahead of him on the powerplay? Because that is the main point of contention, here.

 

[Frk It]

Would you put Dekeyser ahead of him on the powerplay? Because that is the main point of contention, here.

DeKeyser on the PP over Kronwall? That's a god awful idea. Dekeyser shouldn't be on the PP at all.

 

[SoupNazi]

Too logical, you're not going to get very far trying to convince anyone on this board that Kronwall isn't the best d-man in the league, I've been there. The delusion is real when it comes to him.

Find me ONE POST on here where anyone has called Kronwall the best d-man in the league.

It hasn't happened.

 

[Heaton]

Find me ONE POST on here where anyone has called Kronwall the best d-man in the league.

It hasn't happened.

Most people don't even believe Kronwall is a good #1 on this team.

 

[Henkka]

Last 2 seasons Kronwall is 8th best in pp points/60.

His last 3 seasons average is 5.35 pp points/60 since Lidström retired. That's the period Kronner has been the 1st pp quarterback.

As a comparison, Lidström's last 3 season average was 5.50 pp points/60.

So he is in the top 10 of the league, kind of a slight regressed version great Lidas, who was one of the best ever.

 

[HockeyinHD]

Would you put Dekeyser ahead of him on the powerplay? Because that is the main point of contention, here.

Not to me. My objection was to the idea of Kronwall being considered one of the best PP dmen in the league. I thought (and think) that's nuts.

To answer your question, though, I probably wouldn't... but I'm not a great big supporter of Dekeyser's offensive play either. IMO Detroit hasn't had a dman whose offense I would consider better than a hair above mediocre since Lidstrom retired. Kronwall and Dekeyser both rely on aggregation to generate their points.

 

[HockeyinHD]

Last 2 seasons Kronwall is 8th best in pp points/60.

His last 3 seasons average is 5.35 pp points/60 since Lidström retired. That's the period Kronner has been the 1st pp quarterback.

As a comparison, Lidström's last 3 season average was 5.50 pp points/60.

So he is in the top 10 of the league, kind of a slight regressed version great Lidas, who was one of the best ever.

IMO, the positively gigantic difference between the two is that Lidstrom generated a far greater percentage of his PP points as goals, while Kronwall generates his PP points via the first and (more often) second assist.

Lidstrom's last three years he had 16 PP goals. Kronwall had 10.

And we're talking about a Lidstrom that was a shell of himself there at the end. Lidstrom had 11 years of 7+ PP goals. Kronwall's done it once.

Also, looking at points/60 disregards what truly separates the dangerous PP dmen from the rest: scoring goals. What has hurt the Wings for so long is that teams have been able to just sink their PK down low because they don't have to respect the point hosts.

 

[HockeyinHD]

some of those guys on your list aren't good PP QBs at all.

I think it's been pretty clear that the phrase under discussion as far as I was concerned is "Kronwall is one of the best power play defenseman in the league."

You seem to be playing a bit of a shell game by introducing the term "PP QB". I think you get that those aren't quite the same thing, yes? At least, I think there's a fairly clear connotation there in your term that isn't present in what I was discussing before.

I don't think Kronwall's bad on the PP, I just don't think he's as good as people who rely on point totals think he is.

For instance, do you think Kronwall or Green will have more PP points this year... and the fact that this is even something that merits consideration tells you what you should know about what Kronwall's PP tier should be. I mean, are people talking about Green as an elite PP dman?

I like the signing and even I don't think Green's elite. I think he's a big improvement to be sure, but man there are a bunch of guys I'd rather see on that PP than Green.

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

Also, looking at points/60 disregards what truly separates the dangerous PP dmen from the rest: scoring goals. What has hurt the Wings for so long is that teams have been able to just sink their PK down low because they don't have to respect the point hosts.

Teams that score the most PP goals in a season are not hurt by playing a low system. What hurt the Wings is after the retirement of Lidstrom they kept trying to play the same system until last year one that did not match their personnel.

It was mind-numbing when Renney was hired that they didn't switch to the low system that he crushed the league with in Edmonton. Last year they did switch to a lower setup out of the corner and focusing on the half-wall. It is where they should be and Kronwall's passing ability is a big help in running this system.

If the goals are going in, the guys on ice are all playing into that.

Kronwall is a top 10 D-man on the PP because he passes so well. When they finally started playing to their strengths and with the emergence of Nyquist on the PP they skipped right back near the top. Running the same system Lidstom and Holmstrom ran to perfection was a mistake to begin with.

D-man scoring goals isn't the most important thing. With Kronwall and Green we are likely to see more of it this year. Teams have taken away Kronwall sagging into the slot, by the way Green likes to work his way in to, not just bomb it from the outside.

They together make the back-end more dangerous and if they are actually on the same unit the way they both like to sink in it will really stress the box. But that might not be the setup we go with, Kronwall's job was to distribute the puck and break the box for downlow pressure with clean passes that allowed dangerous movement. He did that at an incredibly elite level for one of the top units in the league and remains a massive PP player. Now he has help so he isn't our only massive PP player on the back-end.

With the use of Smith and Richards back there as well more than likely our PP should be about movement and isolation. Kindl and Green are really the only bombers and Kindl the classic PP point D-man with the massive stationary shot. I am intrigued by the back-end being derived by movement and the continuation of exploiting the downlow matchups and half-wall. A big reason for this is the fact 2/3 of the league still uses the classic point guy blasts away it makes the Wings much tougher in the run in chalk talk. They move the puck and move themselves, it puts a lot of stress on the other PK unit especially if the last five games they have seen the classic hammer from the point idea. You still need to do it at times and the Wings do, what made them lethal on the PP last year in my opinion is their ability to beat you several ways and constantly change the look. Kronwall is a big part of that and Green should be too, it is exciting.

 

[InjuredChoker]

some dman with lower first assist rate than kronwall in the past 3 seasons on the PP: josi, keith, byfuglien, weber, barrie, suter, OEL, schultz.

guys like doughty and subban are pretty even with kronwall, burns has the same.

 

[InjuredChoker]

I think it's been pretty clear that the phrase under discussion as far as I was concerned is "Kronwall is one of the best power play defenseman in the league."

You seem to be playing a bit of a shell game by introducing the term "PP QB". I think you get that those aren't quite the same thing, yes? At least, I think there's a fairly clear connotation there in your term that isn't present in what I was discussing before.

I don't think Kronwall's bad on the PP, I just don't think he's as good as people who rely on point totals think he is.

For instance, do you think Kronwall or Green will have more PP points this year... and the fact that this is even something that merits consideration tells you what you should know about what Kronwall's PP tier should be. I mean, are people talking about Green as an elite PP dman?

I like the signing and even I don't think Green's elite. I think he's a big improvement to be sure, but man there are a bunch of guys I'd rather see on that PP than Green.

huh? you brought up the term 'PP QB'.

If I gave you a list (just running down PP IT totals) of Karlsson, Yandle, OEL, Subban, Suter, Streit, Doughty, Burns, Keith, Byfuglien, Josi, Letang, Weber, Barrie and Schultz... which of those guys would you kick off to put Kronwall on it, as far as PP QB'ing goes?

depending on definition of 'one of the best', no i don't think he is. and i don't think points are nearly all there is to evaluating PP ability for dman (or almost anything). i also don't think he's as good as his point totals on the PP suggest (top3-5).

i do think it's pretty likely that green is better on the PP than kronwall. who are these bunch of guys who you'd rather have on the PP than green? of your earlier list of guys, i only see case for maybe 4-5 guys. i wouldn't have any lefties due to abundance wings have them. of righties, wouldn't have doughty, barrie, schulz or letang because they don't have either great shot and/or hang on to puck too long, take forever to wind up and can't make quick decisions.