Mike Colligan: The Quiet Decline of Brooks Orpik

[ColePens]

He lost me at the part about Orpik not being able to skate backwards as well. That sounds nonsensical and almost like something you'd hear on a sports call-in show. There's certainly a case to be made for Orpik's decline in overall effectiveness but there's literally nothing wrong with his skating and I can't imagine a scenario where only a player's backwards skating deteriorates. It wouldn't happen. So I didn't bother reading any further.

I think it's poorly worded, but his gap control is really far back now because he's afraid to get beat with speed. Orpik, even a few years ago, was REALLY fast. I remember debating with a friend that he even might have been one of the top fastest guys on the team at one point. When he would wheel out of our zone to gain the red and dump, the guy was extremely quick.

In comparison to that, I think it was just worded poorly. He barely skates backwards in strides anymore. He really stays flat footed a lot.

 

[Honour Over Glory]

Honestly, the best thing we can hope for is that Orpik's agent prices his guy out of Shero's plans, like 5m/yr type of money or more.

Then when Philadelphia signs him, Crosby can make him look like a fool on a regular basis.

 

[Honour Over Glory]

I think it's poorly worded, but his gap control is really far back now because he's afraid to get beat with speed. Orpik, even a few years ago, was REALLY fast. I remember debating with a friend that he even might have been one of the top fastest guys on the team at one point. When he would wheel out of our zone to gain the red and dump, the guy was extremely quick.

In comparison to that, I think it was just worded poorly. He barely skates backwards in strides anymore. He really stays flat footed a lot.

He was one of the most underrated skaters on the team, he could rush up the ice and then dump it in and be back to the Pens blueline very easily, now not so much. Or at all. He coasts.

I don't know if this is his "I can't play the game I want every game, you wear down and break down before the playoff starts" type of comments that he's playing this way, to conserve energy and be healthier.

 

[jmelm]

article is nonsense. There is no decline in Orpiks game. Hes a little banged up and sore sometimes.

If he hasn't declined, then he's been bad all along.

Bolded. And there's no IF. Brooks has been bad all along. I mean, in certain aspects of the game, he is excellent, but in other aspects of the game, he is poor. And now, with other young & better players knocking on the door, and with our other needs and what we could get for him in a trade, we actually have other options through which getting rid of brooks would make us a better team.

And tonight was a PERFECT example of what is most wrong with Brooks: on the Stafford goal, he is in front of the net, he sees Scuderi chasing the other forward (Ennis), and Orpik just stands in front of the net and completely loses his coverage and doesn't even get a stick (or body) anywhere near Stafford, on what should have easily prevented a goal. It is seeing these same faults time after time after time that has made me just waiting to move this guy...or seeing him gone after this year.

Then when Philadelphia signs him, Crosby can make him look like a fool on a regular basis.

haha, this is so true. I could easily see Philly signing him. They're desperate for D, are stuck on the idea of toughness (often at the expense of other more important aspects of the game), and signing overpriced, overrated and under-performing vets is just something they do too well. I could easily see this happening.

 

[NMK11]

Bolded. And there's no IF. Brooks has been bad all along.

Come on, I know hating Orpik is the thing to do now, but to say he's always been bad is just being a revisionist. He's not a top 4 defenseman anymore, and I like most of us think he's no longer one of our best 6. But stop with the hyperbole, he absolutely used to be a great second pairing, below average first pairing guy. If that's your definition of bad I don't know what to say.

Personally, I wish he would retire after the season. I know it's not going to happen, but seeing a longtime favorite decline into obscurity is painful, and it's even worse when he does it on your team and makes you hate him as a player.

 

[Muscles4Malkin]

And we have two guys who are scratched or in the AHL when we are fully healthy who are better than him. That's key to the hate.

It has to do with the money and contract. More money, more icetime. If Orpik would get the same as Bortuzzo, it would be Orpik who sits.

 

[xxxxxxxxxxxxxx]

Come on, I know hating Orpik is the thing to do now, but to say he's always been bad is just being a revisionist. He's not a top 4 defenseman anymore, and I like most of us think he's no longer one of our best 6. But stop with the hyperbole, he absolutely used to be a great second pairing, below average first pairing guy. If that's your definition of bad I don't know what to say.

Personally, I wish he would retire after the season. I know it's not going to happen, but seeing a longtime favorite decline into obscurity is painful, and it's even worse when he does it on your team and makes you hate him as a player.

He's been in a precipitous decline since the Cup run. Sad, but true. It's not the "popular thing to do." It's realizing he's just not a good defenseman anymore.

And it goes beyond the ice. He's always seemed like a generally unlikable guy. A bit of a petulant hypocrite who has been very outspoken of others even in his worst stretches.

I appreciate his contribution to the Cup run. Some extremely fun to watch, physically punishing hockey. That being said, his expiration date is way long past.

 

[Ragamuffin Gunner]

Orpik should be paired with Scuderi and they should be the third pair.

Martin/Letang
Maata/Niskanen
Orpik/Scuderi

Orpik should be paired with Adams in the pressbox. Des should be playing over him.

 

[Jag68Sid87]

One team that is sure to have interest in Orpik if he makes it to free agency is Calgary. Burke wants bigger players, tougher players. They're also thin in terms of stay-at-home defensemen. So watch out for that if Orpik somehow makes it to UFA.

I have a feeling he's going to be one of those 11th-hour re-signings, a la Kennedy.

 

[jmelm]

Come on, I know hating Orpik is the thing to do now, but to say he's always been bad is just being a revisionist. He's not a top 4 defenseman anymore, and I like most of us think he's no longer one of our best 6. But stop with the hyperbole, he absolutely used to be a great second pairing, below average first pairing guy. If that's your definition of bad I don't know what to say.

Personally, I wish he would retire after the season. I know it's not going to happen, but seeing a longtime favorite decline into obscurity is painful, and it's even worse when he does it on your team and makes you hate him as a player.

No, it's not a new thing or fashionable for me to say. If you go to the search part of this forum and type in the word "controversial" and select "search titles only", you'll see my suggestion of trading Brooks is the first thread to come up -- from 2009. So no, this is not a new idea for me.

And Orpik doesn't need to retire after this year. He hasn't really declined, he's just not that great, for the reasons I mentioned in my post, and not being able to add ANY offence at all. But on lesser teams, he would be a decent stay at home guy, and bring a lot of leadership & experience. I just hope it's not with this team.

One team that is sure to have interest in Orpik if he makes it to free agency is Calgary. Burke wants bigger players, tougher players. They're also thin in terms of stay-at-home defensemen. So watch out for that if Orpik somehow makes it to UFA.

I have a feeling he's going to be one of those 11th-hour re-signings, a la Kennedy.

Possible, but I doubt Orpik wants to go to a team that is in a rebuilding phase, especially in Canada. Maybe he would look at VAN or EDM (because EDM are closer to turning the corner than CGY), but I think he'll find a landing spot with one of the US teams.

 

[Captain Hook]

Orpik has lived in the east for so long now. I know he lived out west in San Fransisco for a few years but he left when he was like 7 and has spent the rest of his life in NY, Mass and PA. Have to wonder if he'd even be interested in going out west at this point, especially to Calgary and especially to a rebuilding team like Calgary. I think he'd likely be looking for the most money he can get from any good eastern conference team, but maybe he'll surprise me and chase the money all the way out in Calgary or Edmonton.

 

[Liberty Biberty]

maybe he can find his form from December of 07 and be our 4LW again?

 

[IHWR]

I'm with jmelm. I don't see this huge decline in Orpik's game like everyone else. He's pretty much the same player he was 5 years ago. He has the same strengths and weaknesses but the big difference is he's logging bigger and different minutes now so the deficiencies in his game are more noticeable.

Orpik is a really good second pairing defenseman but he's being asked to do too much. His game has never really been suited to shut down top lines, that's why during the Cup run Scuderi and Gill saw all the tough matchups and Brooks looked fine. Now he's just on the ice too much and in tougher spots than his game can handle.

So he's hasn't regressed into this awful defenseman out of nowhere, he's always never been good enough to play the role he's been given for this season. But I think he can still be valuable member of this team outside of the pressbox.

 

[MtlPenFan]

For about 2 seasons, Gonchar was almost Lidstrom-esque. Almost.

Forget his offensive abilities. The fact is he had gotten so smart with his stick AND positioning, anyone he was put with looked really good.

That being said, Orpik was AWESOME in the '09 playoffs, especially in the Final. The guy was an absolute rock.

 

[LetangInTheSO]

For about 2 seasons, Gonchar was almost Lidstrom-esque. Almost.

This is obviously stretching it a bit, but thank you for verifying that I'm not taking crazy pills. Gonchar was so, so, so, so, so, so, so, good for us for at least a couple of years. He was head and shoulders above the rest of the league's dmen on the PP (whether holding the line, making perfect passes, threading wristers through bodies or blasting slappers), and he absolutely controlled the ice in the neutral and d-zones. He was a friggin' rock. While we have a way more well-rounded d corps today, we haven't replaced the dominance on the backend that Gonchar gave us for a stretch. Martin is the closest thing we have to Gonch's all round play, and he's half the player Gonchar was at that time. This is coming from a guy who loves Martin.

 

[Gurglesons]

This is obviously stretching it a bit, but thank you for verifying that I'm not taking crazy pills. Gonchar was so, so, so, so, so, so, so, good for us for at least a couple of years. He was head and shoulders above the rest of the league's dmen on the PP (whether holding the line, making perfect passes, threading wristers through bodies or blasting slappers), and he absolutely controlled the ice in the neutral and d-zones. He was a friggin' rock. While we have a way more well-rounded d corps today, we haven't replaced the dominance on the backend that Gonchar gave us for a stretch. Martin is the closest thing we have to Gonch's all round play, and he's half the player Gonchar was at that time. This is coming from a guy who loves Martin.

So, since potential HHOF d-man don't grown on trees, Shero has built up our defensive prospects immensely. To which our board complains and *****es about how Shero never drafts offensive players. So we have filled in our defense to the point where Brooks Orpik and Kris Letang look like luxuries. To which our board responds we need to trade Orpik and Letang and put these kids in top 4 positions.

Every argument people make links up with Shero's thinking. In my mind our top two players (Malkin, and Crosby) can carry the entire offensive load for the most part on this team. In the playoffs also. We saw it in 2009, we began to see it in the Philly series before our entire defense collapsed and if we look at last years playoffs the Boston series is a serious anomaly.

I think with the way our defense is structured right now we need to keep players like Orpik and Letang to help ease our younger players in. When Crosby and Malkin are in their early thirties late twenties. That is the time to begin to trade away pieces like Letang and Martin for offensive help and let our kids (who will then be in their mid-20s.) fill out the defense. This year is not the year to trade Orpik and Letang. Orpik should definitely not be resigned though and honestly Nisky should be our trade chip this deadline. Our defense would be fine without Niskanen, even with an injury.

 

[MtlPenFan]

So, since potential HHOF d-man don't grown on trees, Shero has built up our defensive prospects immensely. To which our board complains and *****es about how Shero never drafts offensive players. So we have filled in our defense to the point where Brooks Orpik and Kris Letang look like luxuries. To which our board responds we need to trade Orpik and Letang and put these kids in top 4 positions.

Every argument people make links up with Shero's thinking. In my mind our top two players (Malkin, and Crosby) can carry the entire offensive load for the most part on this team. In the playoffs also. We saw it in 2009, we began to see it in the Philly series before our entire defense collapsed and if we look at last years playoffs the Boston series is a serious anomaly.

I think with the way our defense is structured right now we need to keep players like Orpik and Letang to help ease our younger players in. When Crosby and Malkin are in their early thirties late twenties. That is the time to begin to trade away pieces like Letang and Martin for offensive help and let our kids (who will then be in their mid-20s.) fill out the defense. This year is not the year to trade Orpik and Letang. Orpik should definitely not be resigned though and honestly Nisky should be our trade chip this deadline. Our defense would be fine without Niskanen, even with an injury.

We complain because it amounts to hoarding when you refuse to trade away washed up vets.

And we complain because it looks like guys like Despres will be traded before guys like Orpik.

 

[Jag68Sid87]

Yeah, I have no issue drafting D-men if the purpose is to replace more expensive, less talented, less useful veteran with said drafted D-man.

Has that happened yet?

 

[Ragamuffin Gunner]

I'm with jmelm. I don't see this huge decline in Orpik's game like everyone else. He's pretty much the same player he was 5 years ago. He has the same strengths and weaknesses but the big difference is he's logging bigger and different minutes now so the deficiencies in his game are more noticeable.

Orpik is a really good second pairing defenseman but he's being asked to do too much. His game has never really been suited to shut down top lines, that's why during the Cup run Scuderi and Gill saw all the tough matchups and Brooks looked fine. Now he's just on the ice too much and in tougher spots than his game can handle.

So he's hasn't regressed into this awful defenseman out of nowhere, he's always never been good enough to play the role he's been given for this season. But I think he can still be valuable member of this team outside of the pressbox.

There is just no way that Orpik is "pretty much the same player he was 5 years ago."

 

[Jag68Sid87]

I don't know about five years, but he hasn't been good for quite some time now.

 

[Ragamuffin Gunner]

So, since potential HHOF d-man don't grown on trees, Shero has built up our defensive prospects immensely. To which our board complains and *****es about how Shero never drafts offensive players. So we have filled in our defense to the point where Brooks Orpik and Kris Letang look like luxuries. To which our board responds we need to trade Orpik and Letang and put these kids in top 4 positions.

Every argument people make links up with Shero's thinking. In my mind our top two players (Malkin, and Crosby) can carry the entire offensive load for the most part on this team. In the playoffs also. We saw it in 2009, we began to see it in the Philly series before our entire defense collapsed and if we look at last years playoffs the Boston series is a serious anomaly.

I think with the way our defense is structured right now we need to keep players like Orpik and Letang to help ease our younger players in. When Crosby and Malkin are in their early thirties late twenties. That is the time to begin to trade away pieces like Letang and Martin for offensive help and let our kids (who will then be in their mid-20s.) fill out the defense. This year is not the year to trade Orpik and Letang. Orpik should definitely not be resigned though and honestly Nisky should be our trade chip this deadline. Our defense would be fine without Niskanen, even with an injury.

It's not that he is exclusively drafting Dmen, its that he is exclusively drafting Dmen along with signing more Dmen and not moving any Dmen. We have 11 NHL Dmen and 4 top 6 forwards. That's ****ed up.


And Sid and Geno can not carry all the offense for one team. You conveniently forgot to mention Staal in your "proof" that they can.

 

[Gurglesons]

We complain because it amounts to hoarding when you refuse to trade away washed up vets.

And we complain because it looks like guys like Despres will be traded before guys like Orpik.

So, we complain about hoarding d prospects. If Orpik is so washed up, then why would you expect a trade. Nobody will want him if he is so washed up. Also, board think is pretty kind to Gonchar who sucked the first two years. He also sucked his last year here and made the same type of Letangesque gaffes. Than he moved to Ottawa and played great in a reserved roll allowing for Karlsson to develop into the player he is.

 

[Jag68Sid87]

So, we complain about hoarding d prospects. If Orpik is so washed up, then why would you expect a trade. Nobody will want him if he is so washed up. Also, board think is pretty kind to Gonchar who sucked the first two years. He also sucked his last year here and made the same type of Letangesque gaffes. Than he moved to Ottawa and played great in a reserved roll allowing for Karlsson to develop into the player he is.

What exactly are you suggesting, that we should keep Orpik to be in that reserved role for our youth? Because we have more youth than available spots on D...THAT's the problem.

We already have Scuderi and Martin as the caretakers, but Maatta, Bortuzzo and Despres need to play...and Harrington and Pouliot are coming...not to mention the others like Dumoulin and Samuelsson and there's even more beyond that.

It's a numbers game, pure and simple. I'd rather weed out from the bottom rather than the top.

 

[LetangInTheSO]

So, since potential HHOF d-man don't grown on trees, Shero has built up our defensive prospects immensely. To which our board complains and *****es about how Shero never drafts offensive players. So we have filled in our defense to the point where Brooks Orpik and Kris Letang look like luxuries. To which our board responds we need to trade Orpik and Letang and put these kids in top 4 positions.

Every argument people make links up with Shero's thinking. In my mind our top two players (Malkin, and Crosby) can carry the entire offensive load for the most part on this team. In the playoffs also. We saw it in 2009, we began to see it in the Philly series before our entire defense collapsed and if we look at last years playoffs the Boston series is a serious anomaly.

I think with the way our defense is structured right now we need to keep players like Orpik and Letang to help ease our younger players in. When Crosby and Malkin are in their early thirties late twenties. That is the time to begin to trade away pieces like Letang and Martin for offensive help and let our kids (who will then be in their mid-20s.) fill out the defense. This year is not the year to trade Orpik and Letang. Orpik should definitely not be resigned though and honestly Nisky should be our trade chip this deadline. Our defense would be fine without Niskanen, even with an injury.

Slow down, cowboy. My comment was simply intended to be complimentary of Sergei Gonchar, and not intended to provide commentary about Ray Shero or his drafting philosophy.

 

[DanBylsma]

I think he is playing better than ever.