Michel Therrien Appreciation Thread

[Bourne Endeavor]

If the criteria was to pick the best coach in the world that spoke French, MT wouldn't have been my number 1, number 2 or number 3 choice. Off the top of my head, there were coaches like Hartley, Larry Robinson and others that were way more interesting to me. But for one reason or another MB settled on MT. He picked MT because he wanted MT, not because he was the only coach that spoke French.

If the top unilingual coach in the world is available (like Babcock), I'm convinced it could work out in Montreal. But MB decided not to got in that direction. I believe he picked MT because he felt he could work well with him not because of the language issue.

If I am not mistaken, Therrien was the best available who spoke French. Hartley turned us down in favor of Calgary, Robinson has repeatedly said he does not want to coach and while I think Boucher is a better coach, the stigma of the 1-3-1 has soured the entire league on him. What I find irksome about Therrien is his initial season gave hope to a high octane offensive system, but we have since deviated from that. While it is difficult to argue with the results, I do feel we aren't playing up to our potential, at least prior to shifting Galchenyuk to center.

 

[Habs Icing]

You are misinterpreting my argument. I chose those coaches as a random hypothetical based on nothing but their individual merit — pulling the first handful of well respected names from the top of my head. Change one of the names to Alain Vigneault and what I said still stands.

Where did I insinuate Anglophone coaches were superior? No one is making that argument, but rather one of perceived favoritism. I am advocating a coach should be chosen only based on how good they are, not what language is spoken.

I don't think I was misinterpreting your argument.

You named three Anglophone coaches. I countered with Francophone coaches. I ask you could you honestly tell me that Anglophone group of coaches was better than the Francophone one?

I believe your answer would be no. In the Francophone you actually have two coaches that won Stanley Cups whereas in the Anglophone you only have one.

But that's not the point. The point is when you get to the top category of coaches it's no longer a question of the GM picking the better qualified candidate. It becomes a question of which coach sees the game the way the GM does.

So if in Montreal they want to add the criteria that the coach needs to s peak French, I really don't see a problem. Now if French speaking Canada was churning out incompetent boobs yeah sure stop the policy. But French Canada isn't. In actual fact the Francophone group of coaches I mentioned had better results than the Anglophone coaches you mentioned.

 

[DAChampion]

I don't know why it's so damn hard for some people to understand or empathize with the reason why Habs feel like they have to hire a French coach.

They might be young. I would feel the same way as them if I were 15.

 

[Nynja*]

I don't know why it's so damn hard for some people to understand or empathize with the reason why Habs feel like they have to hire a French coach.

We understand and emphasize (with the xenophobes who have to "protect their culture), however that has zero correlation with bettering the team and increasing the chance of winning a cup, and such a reason defects the top goal from "winning the stanley cup" to "protecting the french legacy and culture". As I said previously, the legacy of the habs is the 24 stanley cup wins, NOT the french culture. When people were talking about Beliveau's legacy, it was his leadership, how he always had time for all of his fans, both english and french, and all the cup's he's won. I'm pretty sure "he's french" isnt part of his legacy, and is not what I remember about Beliveau.

If the top free agent coach does not speak french, the habs will pass him over for someone not as good simply because they speak french. I'm sure some of you will take this as me saying "the best coaches are all english", which is not what I'm saying at all, which is not what any of us are saying.

They might be young. I would feel the same way as them if I were 15.

I'm 31, and have lived in Montreal for 29 years (moved to Calgary over a year ago).

 

[Yep]

Seriously, enough with the xenophobic crap. It's insulting.

 

[bsl]

You go to war with the army you have.

In the case of the habs, "the army" includes a huge quebecois following and deep historic links with quebec culture. And those fans have been very vocal in the past about the importance of having a french-speaking coach.

If we had to change coach and nobody's good speaking french was available and/or an exceptional english-speaking candidate was available (someone like Babcock), then maybe management would make an exception (knowing they would have to deal with the blowback and hoping everyone would understand the situation).

Beyond that, to keep asking why the habs hire french-speaking coaches make as much sense as asking why habs players have to pay more income taxes than elsewhere: because they pretty much have to. It comes with the place. Stop complaining and deal with it, or GTFO.

Again, you go to war with the army you have. Losers complain about the army they don't have and how unfair it is. Winners play with their strength. Looking at the people MB hired (not just as a coach, but elsewhere in the organisation), I think this is something he understands very well.

The fans don't play, or coach, or manage. There are some good arguments for a french Habs coach. This is not one of them.

 

[OnTheRun]

If the top free agent coach does not speak french, the habs will pass him over for someone not as good simply because they speak french. I'm sure some of you will take this as me saying "the best coaches are all english", which is not what I'm saying at all, which is not what any of us are saying.

This is highly subjective, some people on this very thread put Therrien at the same level as Babcock and it's not because Therrien speak french btw.

The only thing you can bet on is the Habs are not going to hire a coach not speaking french if they can't make a solid "this is the best guy for the job" case.

 

[ECWHSWI]

You cited evidence, then told me to essentially go find it. If it exists, post the link and I will readily acknowledge it, but I am not going to prove your theories for you.

I changed nothing. My argument always pertained to the language requirement set by this organization, how it could negatively impact the time, and that doing so is, in fact, disrespectful to fans as a whole. You either misinterpreted or are willfully obtuse.

You have yet to prove other teams have comparable restrictions nor do I suspect you will. So there is nothing left to discuss.

I did, and like I said, you're a few pages late, now if you're too lazy to take 10 seconds to click, damn right we got nothing else to discuss.

 

[ECWHSWI]

We understand and emphasize (with the xenophobes who have to "protect their culture), however that has zero correlation with bettering the team and increasing the chance of winning a cup, and such a reason defects the top goal from "winning the stanley cup" to "protecting the french legacy and culture". As I said previously, the legacy of the habs is the 24 stanley cup wins, NOT the french culture. When people were talking about Beliveau's legacy, it was his leadership, how he always had time for all of his fans, both english and french, and all the cup's he's won. I'm pretty sure "he's french" isnt part of his legacy, and is not what I remember about Beliveau.

If the top free agent coach does not speak french, the habs will pass him over for someone not as good simply because they speak french. I'm sure some of you will take this as me saying "the best coaches are all english", which is not what I'm saying at all, which is not what any of us are saying.



I'm 31, and have lived in Montreal for 29 years (moved to Calgary over a year ago).

do you remember last time it happened in Habsland ?

I can awnser for ya, you dont, you keep repeating the same stuff over and over but cant provide any evidence, any example, any facts, of the "doom" happening...

 

[Nynja*]

Seriously, enough with the xenophobic crap. It's insulting.

Are you implying its an incorrect statement, or you're saying its insulting because its true and you dont like when people call it out?

do you remember last time it happened in Habsland ?

I can awnser for ya, you dont, you keep repeating the same stuff over and over but cant provide any evidence, any example, any facts, of the "doom" happening...

"Hi, my name is Randy Cunneyworth, and for 3-4 months, I was interim head coach of the Montreal Canadiens, I dont speak french. Jacques Martin was fired by the habs mid season and I was named interim head coach. What almost immediately followed were protests infront of the bell centre from francophones demanding a french coach. Once again, the conditions were entirely an interim basis, and at no point was I hired as head coach. Perhaps the fans were upset that under my tenure the habs actually showed regression from Martin's firing (going from 12-13-7 to 18-23-9) and wanted to scapegoat my inability to speak french as the reason for the teams regression. The fact of the matter is, as I previously said, I was never named head coach of the Canadiens. I was the previous assistant coach who got bumped up to head coach as the team had no long term successor to Jacques Martin at the time. Prior to that, I had no experience as a head coach at the NHL level. I had a couple AHL stints, with 4 of my 9 seasons posting a record of over .600. Perhaps if I had turned the season around for the Habs that year, I may still be the coach and the fans would have overlooked my inability to speak french at that time."

some people on this very thread put Therrien at the same level as Babcock

By chance, were those people the same ones who say Therrien's doing a good job coaching because "look at the record"?

 

[Peasoup]

We understand and emphasize (with the xenophobes who have to "protect their culture)

You go ahead and mock it all you want but most French coaches in the NHL got their first coaching stints in Montreal (Julien, Therrien, Vigneault, Boucher somewhat) which brought them elsewhere in the league afterwards. I seriously question whether they would have been given the same chance if the Habs organization didn't exist.

There is certainly a culture to protect and thankfully, you're not likely to be the one put in charge.

 

[ECWHSWI]

Are you implying its an incorrect statement, or you're saying its insulting because its true and you dont like when people call it out?



"Hi, my name is Randy Cunneyworth, and for 3-4 months, I was interim head coach of the Montreal Canadiens, I dont speak french. Jacques Martin was fired by the habs mid season and I was named interim head coach. What almost immediately followed were protests infront of the bell centre from francophones demanding a french coach. Once again, the conditions were entirely an interim basis, and at no point was I hired as head coach. Perhaps the fans were upset that under my tenure the habs actually showed regression from Martin's firing (going from 12-13-7 to 18-23-9) and wanted to scapegoat my inability to speak french as the reason for the teams regression. The fact of the matter is, as I previously said, I was never named head coach of the Canadiens. I was the previous assistant coach who got bumped up to head coach as the team had no long term successor to Jacques Martin at the time. Prior to that, I had no experience as a head coach at the NHL level. I had a couple AHL stints, with 4 of my 9 seasons posting a record of over .600. Perhaps if I had turned the season around for the Habs that year, I may still be the coach and the fans would have overlooked my inability to speak french at that time."



By chance, were those people the same ones who say Therrien's doing a good job coaching because "look at the record"?

I'm trying to get an estimate here, how many more words you think you'd need to awnser the question ?

 

[Nynja*]

I'm trying to get an estimate here, how many more words you think you'd need to awnser the question ?

I'll try something you do:
"you're a couple posts late, go find it yourself"

You go ahead and mock it all you want but most French coaches in the NHL got their first coaching stints in Montreal (Julien, Therrien, Vigneault, Boucher somewhat) which brought them elsewhere in the league afterwards. I seriously question whether they would have been given the same chance if the Habs organization didn't exist.

Thats true, I cant deny that. And its also true that Julien, Therrien and Vigneault also found greater success elsewhere after being fired. It could also be reasoned that the habs, in their undying need to protect the french culture, rushed up a coach who wasnt exactly ready to coach at the NHL level, then gave up on them as they were figuring out what coaching at the NHL level is like?

Julien
2002-03 Montreal Canadiens NHL Head‡ 36 12 16 4 4 0.444 Out of Playoffs
2003-04 Montreal Canadiens NHL Head 82 41 30 7 4 0.567 Lost in round 2
2005-06 Montreal Canadiens NHL Head† 41 19 16 6 0 0.537
okay, some regression that third year, yet he was still producing a winning record.

Vigneault
1997-98 Montreal Canadiens NHL Head 82 37 32 13 0 0.530 Lost in round 2
1998-99 Montreal Canadiens NHL Head 82 32 39 11 0 0.457 Out of Playoffs
1999-00 Montreal Canadiens NHL Head 82 35 34 9 4 0.506 Out of Playoffs
2000-01 was fired after 20 GP with 5-13-2
Lets be honest, this was the heart of the dark ages roster and management wise. Also Koivu got injured early that season, which is probably why the team sucked so bad at that point. They were 1-2-0 until his injury (He played 3 shifts in game 4 against NYR, I'm not counting it). Therrien replaced him when he was fired.

Therrien
2000-01 Montreal Canadiens NHL Head‡ 62 23 27 6 6 0.468 Out of Playoffs
2001-02 Montreal Canadiens NHL Head 82 36 31 12 3 0.530 Lost in round 2
2002-03 Montreal Canadiens NHL Head† 46 18 19 4 5 0.489
First season was his first stint as a NHL coach. Second season he found himself without the services of Koivu due to his battle with cancer, and still put up a winning record. Third season, the regression, he had a better roster than the previous season and fumbled it. The writing on the wall is similar to his stint in Pittsburgh and his current stint with Montreal.

2005-06 Pittsburgh Penguins NHL Head‡ 51 14 29 8 0 0.353 Out of Playoffs <- tank for Malkin!
2006-07 Pittsburgh Penguins NHL Head 82 47 24 0 11 0.640 Lost in round 1 <- Crosby/Malkin OMG AWESOMENESS
2007-08 Pittsburgh Penguins NHL Head 82 47 27 0 8 0.622 Lost in Finals <- Crosby injured for ~30 games, still posts great record, gets to finals
2008-09 Pittsburgh Penguins NHL Head† 57 27 25 0 5 0.518 <- DA REGRESSION, that same team however went on to win the Cup under another coach

2012-13 Montreal Canadiens NHL Head 48 29 14 0 5 0.656 Lost in round 1 <- Employs a strong puck possession game plan, Injuries plague the team in PO, early exit
2013-14 Montreal Canadiens NHL Head 82 46 28 0 8 0.610 Lost in round 3 <- changes to a dump and chase system, barely score goals but Jesus Price saves all
2014-15 Montreal Canadiens NHL Head 35 22 11 0 2 0.657 <- same dump and chase system, treading water on goal scoring, despite great lineup, Jesus Price continues to save all

 

[habsfanatics*]

They might be young. I would feel the same way as them if I were 15.

I felt the same way when I was 15, good call.

 

[ECWHSWI]

I'll try something you do:
"you're a couple posts late, go find it yourself"



Thats true, I cant deny that. And its also true that Julien, Therrien and Vigneault also found greater success elsewhere after being fired. It could also be reasoned that the habs, in their undying need to protect the french culture, rushed up a coach who wasnt exactly ready to coach at the NHL level, then gave up on them as they were figuring out what coaching at the NHL level is like?

you have yet to do so, all you do is repeating the same stuff over and over, hoping it will eventually come true. Now might be the tie for the YT with the guy who interview people who clearly dont know english, in english. Timing would be perfect.


so, what you're saying actually is that you want to put it on the french factor so much that any argument will be spinned that way... and you're the one talking about xenophobia ?

beau travail champion.

 

[habsfanatics*]

you have yet to do so, all you do is repeating the same stuff over and over, hoping it will eventually come true. Now might be the tie for the YT with the guy who interview people who clearly dont know english, in english. Timing would be perfect.


so, what you're saying actually is that you want to put it on the french factor so much that any argument will be spinned that way... and you're the one talking about xenophobia ?

beau travail champion.

I dunno why you're even bothering to try here. It makes perfectly good sense for the Habs to cater to a large(est)? portion of their fan base. The habs in Quebec go hand in hand. Quebec the province is unique like no other, you can't simply compare what the Vancouver Canucks, Maple Leafs do with that of the habs, two completely different spectrums.

I don't speak any french, I'm a die hard habs fan who use to feel the sameway, as I grew older I learned to appreciate the uniqueness of the Habs and their relationship with the province of Quebec and now I embrace the connection with the people of Quebec, more provinces need to be like Quebec.

Anyways, I might feel different if this were actually a problem, but it isn't, the habs have never been handicapped with poor coaches imo, poor rosters is another discussion. In this market, a french coach is the right coach, so long as he's competent.

 

[Nynja*]

I'm glad you think its ok to turn away better choices in honor of protecting french culture.

Therrien can be a good coach, but he's stubborn, and he's shown to play favourites. He has the tools, but he has some archaic thought process for certain things. First season back in Montreal he had a great record backed up by stats showing they deserved it playing a open ice possession game, but because they Habs fell apart in the PO (due to EVERYONE getting injured), he decided that open ice possession game is bad and will play dump and chase. EVERYONE see's this is terrible, the stats say its terrible, the advanced stats say its terrible, the people who have compared dump and chase vs carrying in say its terrible, but he insists on it, and now its okay because "it got us to the ECF". He continued his trends this season: the stats say our record is undeserved, the advanced stats say our record is undeserved. He keeps doing what he's doing, because he's Therrien and he knows best. He keeps playing favorites, benching rookies for nothing, and letting his BFFS get away with everything wrong.

Something happens on December 6 in Dallas, in the 3rd period of a game where the habs were about to lose their 3rd in a row, with 2 of those 3 against some of the weaker Western teams, capping off a 1-5-1 7 game stretch...it started by shifting the lines to the way the majority of "smart" fans said they should be since the start of the season. Then he started letting the rookies play (partially due to an injury to Eller), now he's not even letting some of the favorable sons get favorable treatment (Emelin got benched). The result: 5-1-0 (with that one loss coming against Anaheim where the ref's strongly imposed their will). Hopefully the next step is changing the breakout from a 2 line stretch pass to something that plays to the habs speed.

 

[ECWHSWI]

I'm glad you think its ok to turn away better choices in honor of protecting french culture.

Therrien can be a good coach, but he's stubborn, and he's shown to play favourites. He has the tools, but he has some archaic thought process for certain things. First season back in Montreal he had a great record backed up by stats showing they deserved it playing a open ice possession game, but because they Habs fell apart in the PO (due to EVERYONE getting injured), he decided that open ice possession game is bad and will play dump and chase. EVERYONE see's this is terrible, the stats say its terrible, the advanced stats say its terrible, the people who have compared dump and chase vs carrying in say its terrible, but he insists on it, and now its okay because "it got us to the ECF". He continued his trends this season: the stats say our record is undeserved, the advanced stats say our record is undeserved. He keeps doing what he's doing, because he's Therrien and he knows best. He keeps playing favorites, benching rookies for nothing, and letting his BFFS get away with everything wrong.

Something happens on December 6 in Dallas...it started by shifting the lines to the way the majority of "smart" fans said they should be since the start of the season. Then he started letting the rookies play (partially due to an injury to Eller), now he's not even letting some of the favorable sons get favorable treatment (Emelin got benched). The result: 5-1-0 (with that one loss coming against Anaheim where the ref's strongly imposed their will). Hopefully the next step is changing the breakout from a 2 line stretch pass to something that plays to the habs speed.

better choices like who ?

when did this happen ?

 

[ECWHSWI]

I dunno why you're even bothering to try here. It makes perfectly good sense for the Habs to cater to a large(est)? portion of their fan base. The habs in Quebec go hand in hand. Quebec the province is unique like no other, you can't simply compare what the Vancouver Canucks, Maple Leafs do with that of the habs, two completely different spectrums.

I don't speak any french, I'm a die hard habs fan who use to feel the sameway, as I grew older I learned to appreciate the uniqueness of the Habs and their relationship with the province of Quebec and now I embrace the connection with the people of Quebec, more provinces need to be like Quebec.

Anyways, I might feel different if this were actually a problem, but it isn't, the habs have never been handicapped with poor coaches imo, poor rosters is another discussion. In this market, a french coach is the right coach, so long as he's competent.

TML does it with Ontario coaches.

as far as trying goes, you may be right, but hey! I'm a curious man, and these debates (not only the language thing) say a lot about who you're talking to usually... and I need to keep up and practice for the 2 or 3 times a year I'll need to use english

 

[Nynja*]

TML does it with Ontario coaches.

Yes, this is the ideal team to compare the habs to, they are the pinnacle of a successful hockey team, how many times have they made the playoffs in the past 10 years again? Making such a reference is shooting yourself in the foot.

better choices like who ?

when did this happen ?

"The Canadiens will not hire a coach who cant speak french"
it doesnt matter like who, the statement has been made: If a candidate cant speak french, they're no longer considered for the position, regardless if they are the best candidate.



Hypothetical question, some legit knocking on wood for what I'm about to say.
We, the people who think Therrien's systems are garbage, have all said Therrien's record is a byproduct of Price, and you can sugarcoat it by "it doesnt matter, look at the record" all you want. Hopefully this doesnt happen, but what happens if next game Price gets hurt, and what we've said all along is true: Therrien's garbage system is protected by having a stud between the pipes, and now that stud isnt there anymore. All of the flaws in Therrien's system come to fruition without Price to plug the holes, the habs go from one of the top teams in the east to not making the playoffs. MB fires him at the end of the season. Now, as far as I know, Babcock has not been extended by the Wings yet, last I've heard was he denied the rumors of any extension. If the previous hypothetical happened, and Babcock's available, but MB decides to promote Lefebvre (who has continuously proven to be a horrible coach) instead of hiring Babcock because "Babcock cant speak french, and Lefebvre can", would you say "yes, thats the right person for the job, its good for the french community of quebec", or would you be scratching your head wondering what just happened?

Are you more concerned with language politics, or getting #25?

 

[Pricef*]

 

[ECWHSWI]

Yes, this is the ideal team to compare the habs to, they are the pinnacle of a successful hockey team, how many times have they made the playoffs in the past 10 years again? Making such a reference is shooting yourself in the foot.



"The Canadiens will not hire a coach who cant speak french"
it doesnt matter like who, the statement has been made: If a candidate cant speak french, they're no longer considered for the position, regardless if they are the best candidate.



Hypothetical question, some legit knocking on wood for what I'm about to say.
We, the people who think Therrien's systems are garbage, have all said Therrien's record is a byproduct of Price, and you can sugarcoat it by "it doesnt matter, look at the record" all you want. Hopefully this doesnt happen, but what happens if next game Price gets hurt, and what we've said all along is true: Therrien's garbage system is protected by having a stud between the pipes, and now that stud isnt there anymore. All of the flaws in Therrien's system come to fruition without Price to plug the holes, the habs go from one of the top teams in the east to not making the playoffs. MB fires him at the end of the season. Now, as far as I know, Babcock has not been extended by the Wings yet, last I've heard was he denied the rumors of any extension. If the previous hypothetical happened, and Babcock's available, but MB decides to promote Lefebvre (who has continuously proven to be a horrible coach) instead of hiring Babcock because "Babcock cant speak french, and Lefebvre can", would you say "yes, thats the right person for the job, its good for the french community of quebec", or would you be scratching your head wondering what just happened?

so that's the whole mantra ?

dont know if it ever happened over the 100+ years of Habs existence (never bother checking actually I'd guess ??), dont know the chances of it ever happening, but technically IT CAN HAPPEN!! OMG!!

 

[Nynja*]

k, seriously, im done trying to discuss anything with you, every time its "look it up yourself".

 

[ECWHSWI]

Yes, this is the ideal team to compare the habs to, they are the pinnacle of a successful hockey team, how many times have they made the playoffs in the past 10 years again? Making such a reference is shooting yourself in the foot.



"The Canadiens will not hire a coach who cant speak french"
it doesnt matter like who, the statement has been made: If a candidate cant speak french, they're no longer considered for the position, regardless if they are the best candidate.



Hypothetical question, some legit knocking on wood for what I'm about to say.
We, the people who think Therrien's systems are garbage, have all said Therrien's record is a byproduct of Price, and you can sugarcoat it by "it doesnt matter, look at the record" all you want. Hopefully this doesnt happen, but what happens if next game Price gets hurt, and what we've said all along is true: Therrien's garbage system is protected by having a stud between the pipes, and now that stud isnt there anymore. All of the flaws in Therrien's system come to fruition without Price to plug the holes, the habs go from one of the top teams in the east to not making the playoffs. MB fires him at the end of the season. Now, as far as I know, Babcock has not been extended by the Wings yet, last I've heard was he denied the rumors of any extension. If the previous hypothetical happened, and Babcock's available, but MB decides to promote Lefebvre (who has continuously proven to be a horrible coach) instead of hiring Babcock because "Babcock cant speak french, and Lefebvre can", would you say "yes, thats the right person for the job, its good for the french community of quebec", or would you be scratching your head wondering what just happened?

Are you more concerned with language politics, or getting #25?

although your hypothetical is just another way for you to avoid reality, I'll play along...

I'd be really, but REALLY worried if in MB mind Lefebvre was the best french speaking coach available, Babcock or no Babcock.

seriously that's the only comparison you could come up with ? Lefebvre VS Babcock ?

sure you dont want to lets say, compare Gretzky in his prime to Mathieu Darche ?

 

[ECWHSWI]

k, seriously, im done trying to discuss anything with you, every time its "look it up yourself".

so, you never believed the idea that the Habs were the only team with a non-hockey requirement ?