Michael Grabner

[BroadwayJay*]

That's a bit of a backstep though right? Earlier it was said (not by you) that they wear down opposing team's top players.

I never said that the 4th line wears down the opposing teams' #1 line.

I know that. But someone else said "top competition". You two are in this together, I'm afraid.

 

[Doshell Propivo]

I know that. But someone else said "top competition". You two are in this together, I'm afraid.

"In what" exactly? Do I lump you with Urkel? Well... I kinda do I guess but that doesn't matter...

MY point is that no matter who the 4th line plays, their style wears down opponents. The fact that I don't agree with another poster that they play against opposing teams' top line does not weaken my position. In fact, it maybe strengthens it as they are able to have an effect on the entire roster of the opposing team.

 

[BroadwayJay*]

"In what" exactly? Do I lump you with Urkel? Well... I kinda do I guess but that doesn't matter...

MY point is that no matter who the 4th line plays, their style wears down opponents. The fact that I don't agree with another poster that they play against opposing teams' top line does not weaken my position. In fact, it maybe strengthens it as they are able to have an effect on the entire roster of the opposing team.

I don't think there is much of a need to "weaken" other team's fourth lines. But this is a project I'm going to get started on. I'll have results at some point in the future.

Already though, it is quite clear that they're not wearing down top lines fwiw.

 

[bigd]

I don't think there is much of a need to "weaken" other team's fourth lines. But this is a project I'm going to get started on. I'll have results at some point in the future.

Already though, it is quite clear that they're not wearing down top lines fwiw.

We can't wait. Make sure you Email it to Cappy so he knows what he should be doing.

 

[BroadwayJay*]

We can't wait. Make sure you Email it to Cappy so he knows what he should be doing.

okay.

 

[Doshell Propivo]

I don't think there is much of a need to "weaken" other team's fourth lines. But this is a project I'm going to get started on. I'll have results at some point in the future.

Already though, it is quite clear that they're not wearing down top lines fwiw.

Why does it have to be one extreme or another? Top line or 4th line? That's it?

I didn't understand the chart you posted earlier - is that what you're referencing when you say it is "quite clear" they are not wearing down top lines? Does it show TOI vs top lines? Does it indicate how many hits vs each line/player? Thanks.

 

[BroadwayJay*]

Why does it have to be one extreme or another? Top line or 4th line? That's it?

Well, no, it isn't one extreme or another. However, someone else said that they were wearing down "top competition" which just isn't true. I've also seen it said many times that their "role" is to face top lines, which also isn't true (since they don't actually do that).

I'm only responding to the assertions of others. It does not seem to me that these oft-repeated tropes are actually true. They're just old hockey sayings, with little connection to the modern game.

The other point is that if they're not wearing down top lines, the utility of such as role is obviously diminished. What is the purpose of having such a line over a skilled line, such as the Blackhawks appear to have done. I would think the method the Blackhawks are currently employing is probably superior, as I've been calling for it for a very long time.

I intend to study it and come up with some data.

I didn't understand the chart you posted earlier - is that what you're referencing when you say it is "quite clear" they are not wearing down top lines? Does it show TOI vs top lines? Does it indicate how many hits vs each line/player? Thanks.

Yeah, that chart is what is quite clear. It has explanations on it, but admittedly I have the tendency to assume everyone gets what they're looking at. Size of the circle is TOI, which is obviously the important factor for this discussion.

It does not indicate hits. However, we know they can't be throwing hits on the first line if they never face them. It shows, among other things, the TOI against individual opponents and with individual teammates. So you'll note the size of the circles against the opposing top line is very small and nonexistent against Granlund, who centers the first line.

Since they barely touched the ice against that line (and rather it was our first line playing them all night) it seems quite clear that they did not "wear down" the Minnesota first line in that game.

I understand your theory, just be patient and I'll produce data on it. I already promised I'd explain the methodology to you beforehand so you can give it the okay before I start crunching to ensure it captures your thesis completely.

No sense hashing this out when we haven't reviewed the data, so just be patient with me.

 

[A Pointed Stick]

Can anyone here who is going totally OCD on the 4th line for some strange reason tell me what they have seen from Kyle Okposo since his return that makes you think a healthy and pissed off Grabner with something to prove would not be an improvement over him currently?

Like I said earlier, your aim needs to focus on the top 3 lines. That's where Grabs makes his living, and they aren't all playing "lights out."

 

[BroadwayJay*]

Can anyone here who is going totally OCD on the 4th line for some strange reason tell me what they have seen from Kyle Okposo since his return that makes you think a healthy and pissed off Grabner with something to prove would not be an improvement over him currently?

Like I said earlier, your aim needs to focus on the top 3 lines. That's where Grabs makes his living, and they aren't all playing "lights out."

Kyle Okposo is an elite player in the NHL. Matt Martin is a borderline NHL player.

I don't see why we can't try what I've been suggesting for years of running four skilled lines: the best 18 players on the squad.

Chicago is doing it now. They're pretty good.

 

[bigd]

Kyle Okposo is an elite player in the NHL. Matt Martin is a borderline NHL player.

I don't see why we can't try what I've been suggesting for years of running four skilled lines: the best 18 players on the squad.

Chicago is doing it now. They're pretty good.

Did you send that E-mil to Cappy yet?

 

[BroadwayJay*]

Did you send that E-mil to Cappy yet?

okay

 

[Tavares2TheRescue]

Can anyone here who is going totally OCD on the 4th line for some strange reason tell me what they have seen from Kyle Okposo since his return that makes you think a healthy and pissed off Grabner with something to prove would not be an improvement over him currently?

Like I said earlier, your aim needs to focus on the top 3 lines. That's where Grabs makes his living, and they aren't all playing "lights out."

Except Kyle Okposo isn't going anywhere. He missed six weeks with his injury and he hasn't looked up to speed since coming back. Sitting him would be the last way to fix that.

 

[Doshell Propivo]

Well, no, it isn't one extreme or another. However, someone else said that they were wearing down "top competition" which just isn't true. I've also seen it said many times that their "role" is to face top lines, which also isn't true (since they don't actually do that).

I'm only responding to the assertions of others. It does not seem to me that these oft-repeated tropes are actually true. They're just old hockey sayings, with little connection to the modern game.

The other point is that if they're not wearing down top lines, the utility of such as role is obviously diminished. What is the purpose of having such a line over a skilled line, such as the Blackhawks appear to have done. I would think the method the Blackhawks are currently employing is probably superior, as I've been calling for it for a very long time.

I intend to study it and come up with some data.



Yeah, that chart is what is quite clear. It has explanations on it, but admittedly I have the tendency to assume everyone gets what they're looking at. Size of the circle is TOI, which is obviously the important factor for this discussion.

It does not indicate hits. However, we know they can't be throwing hits on the first line if they never face them. It shows, among other things, the TOI against individual opponents and with individual teammates. So you'll note the size of the circles against the opposing top line is very small and nonexistent against Granlund, who centers the first line.

Since they barely touched the ice against that line (and rather it was our first line playing them all night) it seems quite clear that they did not "wear down" the Minnesota first line in that game.

I understand your theory, just be patient and I'll produce data on it. I already promised I'd explain the methodology to you beforehand so you can give it the okay before I start crunching to ensure it captures your thesis completely.

No sense hashing this out when we haven't reviewed the data, so just be patient with me.

You may be responding to assertions of others but you're responding to me and I have not made those assertions. The utility of that role is not diminished whatsoever just because Matt Martin didn't play a shift against Granlund. Not sure why you always bring up the 4th line vs 1st line argument as it is completely irrelevant.

Interested in seeing what data you produce. Not sure how you'll measure this (or if it is even possible) but I'm all ears.

 

[BroadwayJay*]

You may be responding to assertions of others but you're responding to me and I have not made those assertions. The utility of that role is not diminished whatsoever just because Matt Martin didn't play a shift against Granlund. Not sure why you always bring up the 4th line vs 1st line argument as it is completely irrelevant.

I've said it a few times. I'll say it again. I'm combining your argument with that of someone else because they are so similar. When I respond to you, I'm also responding for that poster's benefit as well.

Since that poster specifically said "top competition", I knew I could disprove it very easily. That's done. Now we're moving on to the next phase.

Interested in seeing what data you produce. Not sure how you'll measure this (or if it is even possible) but I'm all ears.

Like I said, I'll run it by you first before I even test it. Just be patient, this stuff takes time.

 

[A Pointed Stick]

Except Kyle Okposo isn't going anywhere. He missed six weeks with his injury and he hasn't looked up to speed since coming back. Sitting him would be the last way to fix that.

lol if you think Kyle is 100% healthy or if moving him to another line will hurt anyone at this point. Remember the last time he was injured? How long did it take for him to take his game back?

a) One day
b) One month
c) One year
d) all of the above combined, plus more

The top line was Tav -3, Okie -3 Bails -2. How does Grabner not improve that? He isn't a defensive nightmare like that entire 1st line at the moment.

 

[Doshell Propivo]

Like I said, I'll run it by you first before I even test it. Just be patient, this stuff takes time.

I hate it already.

 

[BroadwayJay*]

I hate it already.

 

[Tavares2TheRescue]

lol if you think Kyle is 100% healthy or if moving him to another line will hurt anyone at this point. Remember the last time he was injured? How long did it take for him to take his game back?

a) One day
b) One month
c) One year
d) all of the above combined, plus more

The top line was Tav -3, Okie -3 Bails -2. How does Grabner not improve that? He isn't a defensive nightmare like that entire 1st line at the moment.

I didn't say Okposo is 100% healthy at all. I also would definitely be in favor of moving him off Tavares' line. I was in favor of that before he even came back because Lee-Tavares-Bailey was playing so well. But it's not as if you can put Grabner in Okposo's spot and have Okposo go to the bench. There's no way in hell that Okposo is getting benched, that's what I was saying before. If you want Grabner up there in his spot, someone else has to get kicked out of the lineup.

 

[A Pointed Stick]

I didn't say Okposo is 100% healthy at all. I also would definitely be in favor of moving him off Tavares' line. I was in favor of that before he even came back because Lee-Tavares-Bailey was playing so well. But it's not as if you can put Grabner in Okposo's spot and have Okposo go to the bench. There's no way in hell that Okposo is getting benched, that's what I was saying before. If you want Grabner up there in his spot, someone else has to get kicked out of the lineup.

Not benched but shifted down assuming he is healthy. If he is not healthy... Another problem entirely. He had a detached retina right? I would think a strong contact sport the worst type of thing to jump into if it is not 100% healed, but a topic for another thread.

 

[Doshell Propivo]

Not benched but shifted down assuming he is healthy. If he is not healthy... Another problem entirely. He had a detached retina right? I would think a strong contact sport the worst type of thing to jump into if it is not 100% healed, but a topic for another thread.

Thanks doc.

 

[viggen]

I didnt see anything in the english speaking media, so i thought i share it here. At an austrian sports news site it was said that Grabner has now also issues with his right hernia and that he will require surgery in summer.

http://www.laola1.at/de/wintersport...e-op-im-sommer/page/109058-309-199---674.html (in German)

 

[PK Cronin]

I didnt see anything in the english speaking media, so i thought i share it here. At an austrian sports news site it was said that Grabner has now also issues with his right hernia and that he will require surgery in summer.

http://www.laola1.at/de/wintersport...e-op-im-sommer/page/109058-309-199---674.html (in German)

Thanks for that. I'll have to try and read it later.

 

[GrandmaSlices51631]

Last night was a prime example of why Grabner should be in the line up. Based on the threat of being able to blow by D like that & his PK ability.

Also, his inability to finish has been perpetuated on this board but for the most part he hustles, even when he can't close. Much rather see that than the complacency we've seen from other guys. Capuano is a fool for scratching him that long.

Hell, in Olympic play Grabner was excellent. He's skilled enough to deserve the minutes.

 

[Sheva7]

Last night was a prime example of why Grabner should be in the line up. Based on the threat of being able to blow by D like that & his PK ability.

Also, his inability to finish has been perpetuated on this board but for the most part he hustles, even when he can't close. Much rather see that than the complacency we've seen from other guys. Capuano is a fool for scratching him that long.

Hell, in Olympic play Grabner was excellent. He's skilled enough to deserve the minutes.

The guy is a very good player. Always has been. Cappy needs to get his head out of his ass and start making decisions that actually help the team win.

 

[A Pointed Stick]

Kyle Okposo is an elite player in the NHL. Matt Martin is a borderline NHL player.

I don't see why we can't try what I've been suggesting for years of running four skilled lines: the best 18 players on the squad.

Chicago is doing it now. They're pretty good.

Chicago put Bickell on the same line as Kane (pre injury) for much of the season. So using your own words, we should put Martin next to Tavares?

Another fact not mentioned in your swill is that Chicago has no less than 3 franchise players, and several elite players. We come no where near that kind of cast. If we could ice an entire shift of nothing but elite or better players that would change my opinion.

This is the NHL bud, not a ladies no checking league. Your strategy is designed for the 2nd, not the 1st. When we had more of a meow element to all the lines we lost almost every game to physical squads. Did you say you didn't follow the club until a couple of years ago? I could be wrong and sorry if I am, but your lack of respect for the way this club was absolutely manhandled by all physical clubs back in the Gordon years suggests it. Most of our losses this year were to clubs on the physical side of the NHL spectrum, or who played more physically than we did in a more physically-even match up.

But please keep preaching about the evils of players who have a physical element to their game, and how this club should be a bunch of skilled wimps. While you keep doing that, because you married that idea for better or worse, the rest of the league just keeps heaping praise on our 4th line and that "borderline NHL player" Matt Martin.