Confirmed with Link: Michael Del Zotto signs 2-year contract ($3.875 AAV) (7/16/2015)

[Psuhockey]

Unless there is a better defenseman coming back, trading Coburn will not get the Flyers any closer to a Cup. You can't count on guys like MacDonald, Grossmann, Schultz and LSchenn to be your shut down defenders and top penalty killers. With those guys getting bigger roles with Coburn injured our PK is in the tank, and we are 25th in CF% at ES.

I get that but you are talking about present day flyers or even next year Flyers. This team and next years have no chance at a cup. The reality of the situation is the Flyers defense has to go thru a major make over with the majority of top players having to come from within the system since good to great defensemen in their prime are seldom made available thru trade or free agency. If you accept that the Flyers defense with have to be remade with prospects and that there will be a learning curve before they are true impact players at the NHL level, then the Flyers won't be a true competitor for a cup for a few seasons. Coburn's contract ends after next and he is inline for a huge raise at 31 years old in years and salary cap. I get you need veterans to help guide the prospects but I would rather get a cheap guy like Schultz then sign Coburn for 6-7 mil for 5 or more years into his mid to late 30's.

So if you don't want to sign Coburn to a big contract at 31 in a season and a half, why not get a huge return for him. GMs are desperate right now.
http://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl/30-thoughts-its-not-going-to-be-easy-for-ted-nolan/

. 2. Had a funny conversation with a GM last weekend. Heard he was looking for a defenceman. He responded with, “Everyone is looking for a defenceman.” Montreal is checking to see what’s out there. The decimated Rangers are bringing in Tomas Kaberle, with no contract offer. Philadelphia’s search, before signing Carlo Colaiacovo, was exhaustive. “Name someone,” one agent said. “They considered him.” The same GM quoted above talked to a team with eight, one-way contracts on its blueline, only to be told none were available. “They wanted to keep all of them,” he said.

The Flyers already made a big mistake with Matt Carle. It was pretty obvious they weren't going to resign him for big cash. Instead of getting something significant for him, they held on to him hoping for a magical cup run. Without Pronger that wasn't going to happen. So a valuable asset walked for nothing when the return he could of gotten in trade could be helping this years team. It's forward thinking and having a realistic view of the team.

 

[Curufinwe]

Why can't Coburn be part of a Cup team later this decade? Who's going to be playing on the top pairing next year and the year after that?

It's not a similar situtation to Matt Carle who they weren't able to sign before free agency started because the Grossmann extension meant they didn't have the tagging space.

http://www.hockeybuzz.com/blog.php?post_id=44847

 

[Psuhockey]

Why can't Coburn be part of a Cup team later this decade? Who's going to be playing on the top pairing next year and the year after that?

It's not a similar situtation to Matt Carle who they weren't able to sign before free agency started because the Grossmann extension meant they didn't have the tagging space.

http://www.hockeybuzz.com/blog.php?post_id=44847

Why wasn't Carle's contract done before Grossmann's; he wasn't even on the team until the deadline. Probably because Carle wanted more money than the Flyers were willing to give.

Yes Coburn could play like a top 4 guy well into his mid to late 30's but he would be an exception. The vast majority decline. Its called playing the percentages. He could also become injury prone and take Prongers spot on the permanent LTIR. Yes serious injuries can happen to younger players but they occur much more frequently with older players. Also think of price. Does current Coburn's play warrant at least 6+ Mil against the cap let alone 34-35 year old Coburn. The Flyers also have to resign Voracek( inline for 7+ easy now), Couturier, and B. Schenn the same year with Umberger and Lecavalier contracts as of now still on the books. That's going to be almost 14-16 million just to resign those 3 guys let alone adding another 6 plus. The Flyers have only 10 guys signed with one being Pronger and approx 24 million to spend at the current cap. With the Canadian dollar sinking, you can't assume a giant rise in the cap limit either by than. Anyway you cut it, signing Coburn at 31 to a $6+ mil contract is a risky proposition.

 

[Curufinwe]

I would rather trade MacDonald if teams are really so desperate for defensemen. Coburn is a better player.

 

[Psuhockey]

I would rather trade MacDonald if teams are really so desperate for defensemen. Coburn is a better player.

So would I but I don't think there will be a lot to teams lining up to take that contract at least for a few more years.

 

[BobbyClarkeFan16]

Why can't Coburn be part of a Cup team later this decade? Who's going to be playing on the top pairing next year and the year after that?

Coburn isn't smart enough. That's the problem. Million dollar talent and tool set, but no brain to consistently put it all together. If you're content with a top pairing guy in which the only thing consistent about him is his inconsistency, then I suppose Coburn has a place.

I'm still baffled by how the man continues to get a free pass for his play.

 

[Curufinwe]

Coburn doesn't get a free pass. We are seeing what the defense looks like without him and it isn't pretty.

 

[Embiid]

From the same Meltzer article...

The fact of the matter is that Holmgren dropped the ball with Carle. Let the guy walk for nothing because he went after Parise and Suter (pipe dream even according to Meltzer) and thought Carle and Jagr would just sit idle while being kicked to the curb ..then Holmgren because of no plan B goes and sign McDonald later on for basically the same money and term because he realized Carle was a NEED regardless of his critics. In the meantime, we had to endure Foster and Gervais and then Huskins who couldn't fill the void and of course no postseason because of the misstep to let Carle and Jagr walk in the first place with no backup plan.

It was the Parise and Suter attempt that made Holmgren leave both Carle and Jagr hang. That happened after Meltzer wrote this article expressing puzzlement about not signing Carle in particular when they did have tagging space. Obviously, Parise and Suter were better options but again even Meltzer said that the likelihood of them coming here was miniscule from the outset and Holmgren shouldn't have bothered. It was a bad misstep on his part...going after Weber was another matter b/c Weber was actually willing to come here.

As far as Coburn...yeah if you can get something decent for him it might be a good idea to do so now while demand is high...but just like the Carle critics and the reasons Meltzer notes below with Carle ....he is not that easily replaced.

The only thing that is somewhat puzzling to me: Why was no deal struck when the tagging space was still available prior to the club extending both Coburn and Grossmann? I would think the answer to the question is that the Flyers, the Carle camp or both wanted to see what kind of season the defenseman would have and then determine the player's price tag relative to his open market value, which is likely a tad higher than Coburn's.


Both Coburn ($4.5 million cap hit for four years, up from $3.2 million) and Grossmann (now a $3.5 million cap hit for four years, up from $1.625 million) received extensions that were right about on par with what their open market value. It would not surprise me if Carle's new deal would also be of similar length and take him from his current $3.44 million cap hit to about $4.75 million, whereas his open market value to sign elsewhere would likely be at roughly $5 million per season.

I know there are a lot of people who don't think that Carle is worth that kind of money. He is not an All-Star caliber defenseman. He's not physical and doesn't shoot the puck very hard. He's decent defensively but he's not a shutdown coverage defender in his own end of the ice. But there are plenty of things he does well, and are of high value to the club.

What Carle's critics are missing is this: It is NOT easy or inexpensive to replace a defenseman who played an average 23:01 during the regular season and 25:19 during the playoffs. It isn't simple to find a replacement defenseman who consistently goes out and produces 35 to 40 points per season. Likewise, it isn't a trifling matter to simply find another defenseman who is as durable as Carle. He as only missed two games over the last three seasons combined and started every game in each of the last two seasons.

 

[Embiid]

Coburn isn't smart enough. That's the problem. Million dollar talent and tool set, but no brain to consistently put it all together. If you're content with a top pairing guy in which the only thing consistent about him is his inconsistency, then I suppose Coburn has a place.

I'm still baffled by how the man continues to get a free pass for his play.

He consistently plays big minutes and he has been pretty durable in his career apart from that setback with the puck to his big nose and this foot injury. Guy is a workhorse and has the required skating skillset in this league to continue to be an asset. Again not easily replaceable even if it looks like the case now. You can only go so long with his absence and come playoff time you need what he has to offer. It's baffling when people don't see this....

The only argument is to sell him high now if you truly feel this team is in a transition year only .....that has some rationale to it not this low IQ meme....

 

[Fire Tortorella]

He consistently plays big minutes and he has been pretty durable in his career apart from that setback with the puck to his big nose and this foot injury. Guy is a workhorse and has the required skating skillset in this league to continue to be an asset. Again not easily replaceable even if it looks like the case now. You can only go so long with his absence and come playoff time you need what he has to offer. It's baffling when people don't see this....

The only argument is to sell him high now if you truly feel this team is in a transition year only .....that has some rationale to it not this low IQ meme....

This, and the fact that expectations on defensemen tend to be much higher than forwards in general.

 

[FadeToBlack]

If MDZ keeps it up through the deadline, I'd consider trading Coburn for a package of picks/prospects or a LW with an elite-level shot to pay with G and V.

Pipe dream, but could you imagine a package like Coburn, a couple firsts, and one of our D prospects for Taylor Hall? Hall on a line with Roo and Yak would be ridiculous.

 

[Flyerss]

MDZ is not the guy facing the toughest Qoc in this defense if we move Coburn: AMac,Grossmann,Schultz are going to be the guys playing Coburn's role not MDZ or Streit.

 

[Jack Straw]

MDZ is not the guy facing the toughest Qoc in this defense if we move Coburn: AMac,Grossmann,Schultz are going to be the guys playing Coburn's role not MDZ or Streit.

Correct and none of those guys are as good in a shut down role as Coburn. You trade Coburn and you're pinning your hopes on Morin next year (or very soon thereafter), which is expecting a huge amount from a 20-ish year old.

 

[LegionOfDoom91]

If MDZ keeps it up through the deadline, I'd consider trading Coburn for a package of picks/prospects or a LW with an elite-level shot to pay with G and V.

Pipe dream, but could you imagine a package like Coburn, a couple firsts, and one of our D prospects for Taylor Hall? Hall on a line with Roo and Yak would be ridiculous.

I would only trade that type of package for a defensemen not a winger. Hall's a very good player but he doesn't play a premium position which that type of package would call for.

 

[blinds]

Coburn doesn't get a free pass. We are seeing what the defense looks like without him and it isn't pretty.

It's been pretty good recently.

 

[Danko]

I would prefer to keep Coburn and unload MacDonald but with that contract...good luck.

MDZ has been great, hes the type of guy that needs a lot of minutes it seems like though so it will be interesting how time gets divided when everyone is healthy.

 

[Jack de la Hoya]

Said it before, but trading Coburn is silly. It will simply push the window back even further. It is one thing for young defensemen to step into a situation in which they are surrounde by capable, reliable vets and succeed. it is another thing to ask them to step in and carry all the difficult minutes. Of all the defenseman that we have on the roster, Coburn is the least expendable, not the most (though I don't think Streit is going anywhere either).

It isn't like we have multiple prospects ready to step in and play top four minutes next year anyway. Gostisbehere might be ready to play as a 3rd pairing / 2nd PP guy. Hagg might be able to play a 3rd pairing role with the right partner. But neither are going to make or break the team. Morin and Sanheim are a few years off.

 

[jabba2]

Macdonalds age makes him tradeable. Even with the high salary. He is paid like a #4 in todays NHL. Defenseman are getting more and more bank. Im curious how much MDZ will want for if he continues playing well. Flyers got a huge bargain with MDZ.

 

[Jtown]

If mdz can be that pmd that can play in the top 4 it will take all the sting out of the JVR trade disaster.

 

[Curufinwe]

It's been pretty good recently.

Not at preventing shot attempts or killing penalties.

The way they have bent without breaking with Grossmann-Streit as the first pairing has been admirable, but it's not something that can last a full season.

 

[Psuhockey]

Said it before, but trading Coburn is silly. It will simply push the window back even further. It is one thing for young defensemen to step into a situation in which they are surrounde by capable, reliable vets and succeed. it is another thing to ask them to step in and carry all the difficult minutes. Of all the defenseman that we have on the roster, Coburn is the least expendable, not the most (though I don't think Streit is going anywhere either).

There are other veterans on the team and in the league in general. I haven't notice much difference with Coburn out of the lineup so i don't understand where the fear that the defense will fall apart without him cones from. It's looks about the same with him or without him.

 

[Curufinwe]

The defense looked totally different without Coburn against NJ than it did against Boston the previous night. They got shredded. Grossmann and Schultz's Corsi numbers continue to fall as the tougher minutes catch up with them.

And the PK is still in the bottom 10 because guys who have no business being out there for anything more than spot duty like MDZ and Schultz are getting significant minutes.

 

[Dirty but Good]

There are other veterans on the team and in the league in general. I haven't notice much difference with Coburn out of the lineup so i don't understand where the fear that the defense will fall apart without him cones from. It's looks about the same with him or without him.

I think MDZ & Shultz have really stepped up to fill in for Coburn while he is out which is why we don't notice that much. There's no doubt the Flyers are better with Coburn in the lineup though, even though he was a bit shaky before he got hurt.

 

[TheSpectrum]

Maybe it's just me, but from the games I've watched this year, Del Zotto has actually sacrificed offense for the sake of being in a better position defensively. He seems like he's finally understanding what it takes to manage the defensive side of the game and he's been playing really smart. There's been an odd gaffe here and there, but he seems to have really shored up defensively and that Gord Murphy has been able to get through to Del Zotto.

I check the +/- chances every game this year (by defensive pairing). His pairing (lately with Schultz) is usually always in the green which is a good sign but they almost always are the pairing to give up the most scoring chances as well. This to me in an indication of a player that loves to generate offense at the expense of defense (yes I know we have to consider other factors as well like line mates and matchups but it is a good indicator regardless)

It would be nice to see how these numbers are tracking this year with the Flyers compared to last few season in NY and Nashville.

 

[RJ8812*]

How does MDZ playing better make Coburn expendable?

It doesn't.

I don't like Coburn, but we can't afford to trade him yet