Men vs Women soccer

[QuietContrarian]

Does it matter that they lost against boys? Are they the peers they have to compete with? The mens money comes from immense marketing,corruption and tradition. Do you think they get money for being the best? They don't. Men's money exploded because rich people think they can get a return of investment exploiding the tradition of clubs. That's all there is to it. And it's the thing, by the way, that killed a good part of footy. Real should still be bitchslapped for paying what they did to Figo. The CL should still be bitchslapped for killing a once great competition, the investors in the EPL should be slapped as well. Etc, etc. That's all marketing on the back of tradition. Norwegian skijumping does it right. Equal pay for men and women regardless of the money generated.

That would require men to get paid alot less, as it’s just not doable without doing so.
(For what it’s worth, I think athletes in general get paid too much, so would not be against the men getting less, just not sure if equal pay is fair game in this case)

The females do not generate enough income.

No sexism there.

I would post videos of Economists and lawyers explaining why, ut at the feer of being labeled this and that, aswell as the ban hammer, you will have to pm me if you want it.

There is a reason the USWNT lost this case handidly in court.

It’s all fine and Dandy you don’t think womens soccer is an inferior game, but I do, and there is no logic in saying I am wrong, as this is down to the beholder I would say.

I find womens tennis immensly entertaining, same with handball.
Womens soccer and WNBA, not so much - And that sure as hell has nothing to do with marketing.

And, imo, sure more marketing would help womens soccer, but no matter what, I don’t ever think it would reach the popularity of the mens game - No matter how much push.

 

[Havre]

I can see the point that in some sports it becomes more visible that women in general are somewhere around 10% slower, weaker etc. then men. If you watch ski jumping or cross country skiing there is really no way to tell that you are watching a man or a woman. In ski jumping a woman would just get slightly more speed and jump just as far as a man. 99.9999% of the world's population would not be able to tell if the person jumping is a man or woman just by objectively looking at the person jump. Same with cross country skiing. A skilled watcher could see that technically a woman due to being slightly less strong etc. will ski in a slightly different way, but in any case that is not why people are watching the sport - it is the entertainment of seeing who wins.

Handball for whatever reason seems to have become very popular among women in many countries. When I grew up I was the only one in my class playing handball among the boys, but more than 50% of the girls played. There wasn't even a football team for girls - so the only girl in the area who played football played with us boys until she was 13-14 or so (she ended up on the national team - and played more than 150 games for the Norwegian national team). Quite obvious then if almost everyone went for handball that the level for handball would be a lot better than football. With more and more girls playing football the level will improve - and it has drastically improved over the 20 years.

As for popularity this will depend mostly on who the girls would want to watch. If girls growing up are dragging their dads to watch women football - then who knows what will happen. I highly doubt it will get that close to the men's game, but it might get closer than most now think. And then we will see if people like Jet still do not like to watch women play football (that is not criticism - personally I find women handball rather boring and that has nothing to do with sexism etc. - just that the game is different).

 

[Panteras]

Woman’s soccer has grown a lot and it will continue to grow. Which is great to see. So too will revenue and salaries. It will happen organically. But demanding equal pay now is just bizarre… it’s like a bowler demanding same pay as Messi or Ronaldo simply because he is the best bowler in the world. It’s laughable and it doesn’t make sense.

 

[QuietContrarian]

I can see the point that in some sports it becomes more visible that women in general are somewhere around 10% slower, weaker etc. then men. If you watch ski jumping or cross country skiing there is really no way to tell that you are watching a man or a woman. In ski jumping a woman would just get slightly more speed and jump just as far as a man. 99.9999% of the world's population would not be able to tell if the person jumping is a man or woman just by objectively looking at the person jump. Same with cross country skiing. A skilled watcher could see that technically a woman due to being slightly less strong etc. will ski in a slightly different way, but in any case that is not why people are watching the sport - it is the entertainment of seeing who wins.

Handball for whatever reason seems to have become very popular among women in many countries. When I grew up I was the only one in my class playing handball among the boys, but more than 50% of the girls played. There wasn't even a football team for girls - so the only girl in the area who played football played with us boys until she was 13-14 or so (she ended up on the national team - and played more than 150 games for the Norwegian national team). Quite obvious then if almost everyone went for handball that the level for handball would be a lot better than football. With more and more girls playing football the level will improve - and it has drastically improved over the 20 years.

As for popularity this will depend mostly on who the girls would want to watch. If girls growing up are dragging their dads to watch women football - then who knows what will happen. I highly doubt it will get that close to the men's game, but it might get closer than most now think. And then we will see if people like Jet still do not like to watch women play football (that is not criticism - personally I find women handball rather boring and that has nothing to do with sexism etc. - just that the game is different).

Agree with most all.

I doubt womens footy will ever appeal to me, as it has little to do with them being physically not as strong - If the womens game got more technically sound, a little more fast paced, that would help.

I have seen so many horrible misses in womans footy it’s not even funny.

Handball while very different from the mens, is/was still technical masterclass, and quite fast paced.

Take a player like Anja Andersen or Gro Hammerseng, incredible players.

For example tennis is the same, as Serena lost quite handidly to a male college level player.

Womens tennis is imo, still very entertaining to me - And female tennis players make good money because it is entertaining and draws huge crowds.

Womens football and basket just looks hard on the eyes imo.

I used to be into figure skating, watched it alot, and id much rather watch the women than the men, as it was much more graceful.

I have a daughter, and if she starts getting into footy, I can guarantee you that would spark my interest for sure.

 

[John Price]

Women's soccer is vastly more interesting than men's soccer

It also doesn't hurt that the women's teams in USA and Canada are better than their male counterparts

- The US has one of the most successful women's programs in women's soccer history. The US men in comparison are 20th ranked in FIFA and have yet to win a World Cup. The US Women have 4.

- The Canadian women have a history of being good, having medaled Bronze in the last 2 Olympics, and are playing for a shot at gold tonight. In comparison the men's side has not qualified for a world cup since 1986, and their men are (despite Herdman's best efforts) 70th ranked in FIFA.

That isn't to say I won't watch the men but the women are clearly better in tournaments and group play. I will still root on the USMNT though!

 

[QuietContrarian]

Women's soccer is vastly more interesting than men's soccer

It also doesn't hurt that the women's teams in USA and Canada are better than their male counterparts

- The US has one of the most successful women's programs in women's soccer history. The US men in comparison are 20th ranked in FIFA and have yet to win a World Cup. The US Women have 4.

- The Canadian women have a history of being good, having medaled Bronze in the last 2 Olympics, and are playing for a shot at gold tonight. In comparison the men's side has not qualified for a world cup since 1986, and their men are (despite Herdman's best efforts) 70th ranked in FIFA.

That isn't to say I won't watch the men but the women are clearly better in tournaments and group play. I will still root on the USMNT though!

Oh yeah, the female teams in NA, are vastly more succesful than the mens teams.

But better, no! Not 1 on 1.

I respect your opinion, but I disagree very much with the notion that womens soccer is vastly more interesting than mens - Results are often far more lopsided in womens soccer.

Maybe if all you care about are medals and wins, but that is not how I measure entertainment myself.

 

[Havre]

Agree with most all.

I doubt womens footy will ever appeal to me, as it has little to do with them being physically not as strong.

For example tennis is the same, as Serena lost quite handidly to a college level player.

Womens tennis is imo, still very entertaining to me.

Womens football and basket just looks hard on the eyes imo.

I used to be into figure skating, watched it alot, and id much rather watch the women than the men, as it was much more gracefull.

I used to see it the same way. Women football got quite a lot of attention in Norway before most other countries (I guess) - because the Norwegian team was good before most of the world had started playing. They won bronze in the 96 Olympics and the gold in 00 is still considered one of the "best" gold medals Norway have won in the Summer games (obviously Warholm and a couple of other golds are more "known").

The thing back then I thought women football was horrible to watch. At least when women play handball you recognize the game. It is not the same, but still very similar. For football the style of play was just completely different. Even having a player that could punt the ball 50m would be a huge asset back then. I got to admit my view of women football stayed like that for quite some years. The Norwegian national team kind of disappeared and I never watched any games. Then over the last 3-4 years for some random reason several of the best players in the world are suddenly Norwegian and the game was again getting a lot more attention here. I watched some games again and I was shocked by how much better it has become. Teams are now playing football in a completely different way than they used to.

If I ever had a daughter, I could see myself going to a game now and actually find it entertaining. That would have been unthinkable 20 years ago.

It also helps that in terms of personalities I find several of the women a lot more interesting than many of the best male football players in Norway right now. That is a bit random of course, but when Graham Hansen wins the CL I'm really happy for her as she is both a brilliant player and as far as I can tell a brilliant person.

 

[QuietContrarian]

I used to see it the same way. Women football got quite a lot of attention in Norway before most other countries (I guess) - because the Norwegian team was good before most of the world had started playing. They won bronze in the 96 Olympics and the gold in 00 is still considered one of the "best" gold medals Norway have won in the Summer games (obviously Warholm and a couple of other golds are more "known").

The thing back then I thought women football was horrible to watch. At least when women play handball you recognize the game. It is not the same, but still very similar. For football the style of play was just completely different. Even having a player that could punt the ball 50m would be a huge asset back then. I got to admit my view of women football stayed like that for quite some years. The Norwegian national team kind of disappeared and I never watched any games. Then over the last 3-4 years for some random reason several of the best players in the world are suddenly Norwegian and the game was again getting a lot more attention here. I watched some games again and I was shocked by how much better it has become. Teams are now playing football in a completely different way than they used to.

If I ever had a daughter, I could see myself going to a game now and actually find it entertaining. That would have been unthinkable 20 years ago.

It also helps that in terms of personalities I find several of the women a lot more interesting than many of the best male football players in Norway right now. That is a bit random of course, but when Graham Hansen wins the CL I'm really happy for her as she is both a brilliant player and as far as I can tell a brilliant person.

I watched the last WC, I reaaaally tried to get into it, as I still follow Canadas women, and have a connection there.

The Danish women, are good, but not a top nation. Maybe a semi final every now and again in a Euro.

I really like Nadia Nadim from Denmark for example - She is a pro footballer and still
managed to become a doctor, I mean wow.

 

[John Price]

Oh yeah, the female teams in NA, are vastly more succesful than the mens teams.

But better, no! Not 1 on 1.

I respect your opinion, but I disagree very much with the notion that womens soccer is vastly more interesting than mens - Results are often far more lopsided in womens soccer.

Maybe if all you care about are medals and wins, but that is not how I measure entertainment myself.

i measure world cups and olympic medals

in that category us women and canada women have far outclassed the men

i cannot remember the last time I saw a Canadian men's soccer team at the Olympics

 

[QuietContrarian]

i measure world cups and olympic medals

in that category us women and canada women have far outclassed the men

i cannot remember the last time I saw a Canadian men's soccer team at the Olympics

WC sure but for men the olympics are a meh tourney.

 

[Havre]

I watched the last WC, I reaaaally tried to get into it, as I still follow Canadas women, and have a connection there.

The Danish women, are good, but not a top nation. Maybe a semi final every now and again in a Euro.

I really like Nadia Nadim from Denmark for example - She is a pro footballer and still
managed to become a doctor, I mean wow.

I don't ever think it will be as good. And I'm obviously not thinking that everyone will "come around" to liking it at some point, but I'm going excited to see where the women are 10-15 years from now.

A digression, but in Norway now there is a lot of attention on how to optimise training for women. Traditionally what is "known" about training has been learned by seeing how men react to it. Now more and more athletes, teams etc. are trying to see if some modifications might be useful to get the best out of women.

 

[Eisen]

Yes it is, vastly. Have the men's national team of any country play the women's team. Expect a draw?

Is that how me measure sports?

 

[NyQuil]

As someone who has watched women's soccer since the days of Brandi Chastain, I don't think you can minimize how much better the sport has gotten in a few decades.

The quality of play and the skill level of the players has improved immeasurably.

Mrs_NyQuil played provincial level soccer and even she can't believe how much better the ladies are today.

I find it entertaining to watch - much more so than women's hockey (aside from the US-Canada tilts) or most other women's team sports.

 

[Panteras]

Lol at anyone that believes the best women’s team can take on even like a 3rd division Spanish league team

 

[QuietContrarian]

Lol at anyone that believes the best women’s team can take on even like a 3rd division Spanish league team

I don’t think many believe that tho - tbf, people are talking about womens soccer as a standalone sport and the entertainment level it has by itself.

 

[Panteras]

I don’t think many believe that tho - tbf, people are talking about womens soccer as a standalone sport and the entertainment level it has by itself.

I thought that’s what Eisen was alluding to. But I could be wrong.
Not sure it can be considered a standalone sport like softball compared to baseball though. I don’t agree with that.

 

[QuietContrarian]

I thought that’s what Eisen was alluding to. But I could be wrong.
Not sure it can be considered a standalone sport like softball compared to baseball though. I don’t agree with that.

Me and Eisen often disagree, but I am pretty sure that wasn’t what he was getting at.

 

[TheMoreYouKnow]

Women's tennis is only more entertaining because the serve dominates the men's game in a brutal fashion. Men's additional physical strength works against the entertaining side of tennis which are frequent long exchanges. That doesn't really apply in soccer.

I find in general the rule of thumb applies that the more exposure you've had to men's soccer over your life the less likely you are to enjoy women's soccer. Your mind will compare it all the time and women's soccer will simply not hold up. It's not that there aren't any nifty moves or nice goals scored in women's soccer, it's that to the seasoned watcher of the men's game it will all just look so slow and clumsy in comparison. The goalkeeping alone.

 

[John Price]

Women's tennis is only more entertaining because the serve dominates the men's game in a brutal fashion. Men's additional physical strength works against the entertaining side of tennis which are frequent long exchanges. That doesn't really apply in soccer.

I find in general the rule of thumb applies that the more exposure you've had to men's soccer over your life the less likely you are to enjoy women's soccer. Your mind will compare it all the time and women's soccer will simply not hold up. It's not that there aren't any nifty moves or nice goals scored in women's soccer, it's that to the seasoned watcher of the men's game it will all just look so slow and clumsy in comparison. The goalkeeping alone.

The men constantly dive for fouls and calls

The women get up and keep playing

I mean if the US developed a men's team that would actually win world cups I would bandwagon the f*** on that too.

 

[NyQuil]

I find in general the rule of thumb applies that the more exposure you've had to men's soccer over your life the less likely you are to enjoy women's soccer. Your mind will compare it all the time and women's soccer will simply not hold up. It's not that there aren't any nifty moves or nice goals scored in women's soccer, it's that to the seasoned watcher of the men's game it will all just look so slow and clumsy in comparison. The goalkeeping alone.

As someone who has been a rabid soccer fan for 36 years, I don't really see it.

The improvement in the sport is a tangible, visceral and observable phenomenon from one World Cup to the next.

I get that there are women's sports out there that actually get higher or equal billing (e.g. tennis, gymnastics, figure skating) but the fact that women's soccer is getting more competitive is making it more compelling.

With a lot of these women's team sports, you have a handful of good nations and then a whole bunch of chaff that gets routinely destroyed.

It wasn't that long ago that no European countries had noteworthy women's soccer teams. Hell, my wife's team went to England and played teams like Arsenal in the late 1990s on an even-footing.

Now, I can see your argument because it applies equally to lower levels of competition for any sport.

Do you watch CHL hockey when it's slow and gaffe-prone compared with the NHL?

I don't really watch any of the Junior leagues, partly because I only have so much time to watch sports, but also partly because Ottawa has an NHL team now and I don't need to satisfy that need with the 67's as I once did.

But I won't mind as much in international competition (e.g. WJCs) because it's a more digestible number of games and there's usually an interesting storyline or two. It's within the same context that I'll watch international women's soccer.

 

[TheMoreYouKnow]

The men constantly dive for fouls and calls

The women get up and keep playing

I mean if the US developed a men's team that would actually win world cups I would bandwagon the f*** on that too.

Honestly, assuming that the diving claim is true (and I can't really evaluate that), it's almost certainly because of the lack of professionalism in women's soccer or to put a nicer touch on it - the amateur ethos still prevailing in much of that game.

The simple reality is that the men's game due to its long-running popularity is dominated by people playing it for money with various pressure factors attached to it. Gamesmanship is inevitable when the stakes are so high. Consider that in any European country you could pick up a number of newspapers on any given day and read a dozen pages about soccer. You could go to a big news site in your country and read dozens of new articles every day about soccer. Men's soccer that is. Men's soccer isn't just a sport, it's among the world's biggest entertainment industries as well as a dominant sub-culture in most of the world. Even the biggest stars in women's soccer live a pretty normal and low pressure life most of the time in comparison to even an average 1st team player in the Premier League.

 

[John Price]

As someone who has been a rabid soccer fan for 36 years, I don't really see it.

The improvement in the sport is a tangible, visceral and observable phenomenon from one World Cup to the next.

I get that there are women's sports out there that actually get higher or equal billing (e.g. tennis, gymnastics, figure skating) but the fact that women's soccer is getting more competitive is making it more compelling.

With a lot of these women's team sports, you have a handful of good nations and then a whole bunch of chaff that gets routinely destroyed.

It wasn't that long ago that no European countries had noteworthy women's soccer teams. Hell, my wife's team went to England and played teams like Arsenal in the late 1990s on an even-footing.

Now, I can see your argument because it applies equally to lower levels of competition for any sport.

Do you watch CHL hockey when it's slow and gaffe-prone compared with the NHL?

I don't really watch any of the Junior leagues, partly because I only have so much time to watch sports, but also partly because Ottawa has an NHL team now and I don't need to satisfy that need with the 67's as I once did.

But I won't mind as much in international competition (e.g. WJCs) because it's a more digestible number of games and there's usually an interesting storyline or two. It's within the same context that I'll watch international women's soccer.

I started off watching the Women's world cup in 2011 and I was hooked from then. And seeing the domestic league here in the US get support from higher profile athletes helps sustain it's viability. I'm all for the women's soccer league here and I dare say I follow it tighter than MLS

The 2019 WWC was the "resurgence" of the teams other than America. During that, you saw England, France, Germany, Netherlands, Australia, Brazil and the US all compete for gold (with the US obviously winning, but closer than many people predicted). After that cup, The english women's game got a boost with some of the NWSL stars (Americans) moving to England, like Alex Morgan playing for Spurs, Rose Lavelle playing for one of the Manchester teams as well as Mewis, etc. They've moved back to the NWSL, but other players from the English league are still there including some of the Olympians.

2021 showed that Sweden is pretty powerful as well as Canada, who finally got over their hump. And the good thing is once these Olympics end these women will continue club careers in Paris (Aslanni IIRC, or did she go to Barca?), and the NWSL women will just return to a stable league in America. So that's good.

 

[NyQuil]

Honestly, assuming that the diving claim is true (and I can't really evaluate that), it's almost certainly because of the lack of professionalism in women's soccer or to put a nicer touch on it - the amateur ethos still prevailing in much of that game.

The simple reality is that the men's game due to its long-running popularity is dominated by people playing it for money with various pressure factors attached to it. Gamesmanship is inevitable when the stakes are so high. Consider that in any European country you could pick up a number of newspapers on any given day and read a dozen pages about soccer. You could go to a big news site in your country and read dozens of new articles every day about soccer. Men's soccer that is. Men's soccer isn't just a sport, it's among the world's biggest entertainment industries as well as a dominant sub-culture in most of the world. Even the biggest stars in women's soccer live a pretty normal and low pressure life most of the time in comparison to even an average 1st team player in the Premier League.

Sorry, but I don’t associate feigning injury with professionalism.

If you would prefer to characterize it as putting victory ahead of honourable conduct then I would agree.

Pretending that something happened that didn’t to trick a referee is not what I would call professional behaviour.

And again, I’m making a distinction between diving (which is sometimes required to emphasize a subtle foul to the ref) and holding your face in abject pain and rolling around like an idiot after knocking ankles with someone.

The fact that this is condoned or even encouraged in some soccer cultures shows the gap between North American sporting culture and other parts of the world.

 

[NyQuil]

2021 showed that Sweden is pretty powerful as well as Canada, who finally got over their hump. And the good thing is once these Olympics end these women will continue club careers in Paris (Aslanni IIRC, or did she go to Barca?), and the NWSL women will just return to a stable league in America. So that's good.

Having favourites lose and new champions is almost always a positive development for a growing sport, particularly in women’s sports where the competition may still be weak.

It reminds me a bit of the 2004 hockey World Cup where Finland winning would have probably been the best thing to happen for that tournament. Alas, they didn’t, and the credibility of the competition has suffered ever since.

 

[NyQuil]

Consider that in any European country you could pick up a number of newspapers on any given day and read a dozen pages about soccer.You could go to a big news site in your country and read dozens of new articles every day about soccer. Men's soccer that is. Men's soccer isn't just a sport, it's among the world's biggest entertainment industries as well as a dominant sub-culture in most of the world. Even the biggest stars in women's soccer live a pretty normal and low pressure life most of the time in comparison to even an average 1st team player in the Premier League.

And yet, in North America, the US women’s team outdraws the men’s team and I’ll wager that more Americans know who Mia Hamm, Megan Rapinoe and Hope Solo are compared with Donovan, Pulisic and Bradley.

The pressure on the women’s team is absolutely greater than the men’s team in the United States - expectations are higher and due to political statements, there’s a whole raft of people rooting for them to fail.

Trump Says ‘Leftist Maniacs' Cost U.S. Women's Soccer Team a Gold Medal

Even in Canada, as big as Alphonso Davies is, I’ll bet more people know of Christine Sinclair.