OT: Memorial Cup - May 16-25 at Budweiser Gardens in London, ON

[arttk]

That's like Kesler.... in his worst year since being a fricken youngster. Nor did I say that "sucks".

To turn that around on you, do you think Kesler was one of the best second line centres in the league, THIS YEAR? Not to mention, he had the highest TOI and PPTOI on the team.

Kesler's production vs ice time is pretty bleh this past season but as said before, it's excellent if Horvat can put up 45-50ish points while getting 2nd line ice time (around 16-17 minutes, not 20+ minutes) and be played primarily against the opposition top line.

 

[Patchey*]

London didn't really have a chance to begin with. Injuries to their Defensive core really screwed them over

 

[torlev*]

yes he's easily one of the best 2nd line centers in the league this year or any healthy year. he does everything at a high level.

I wouldn't have put his season in the top 10 of second line Centres this year. I think you can easily find 10 that had better years.

 

[torlev*]

Kesler's production vs ice time is pretty bleh this past season but as said before, it's excellent if Horvat can put up 45-50ish points while getting 2nd line ice time (around 16-17 minutes, not 20+ minutes) and be played primarily against the opposition top line.

So your answer is no, his 43 point season while being strong defensively wouldn't be among the best second line centres this year?

 

[arttk]

So your answer is no, his 43 point season while being strong defensively wouldn't be among the best second line centres this year?

Considering that he didn't get 2nd line minutes. Like you said, he played the most minutes on the team, since when does a "2nd line center" get played the most minutes?

 

[Lundface*]

Colorado is fortunate to have drafted 3 and 1 overall to get two of those players, plus Mackinnon played a good chunk of the year on wing so I don't believe they played 3 centres with over 45 points.

As for LA, their 2C (Carter) had 50 points instead of 45, is that really the difference between them being a "better team in the league or not"? Or do you think it has a lot more to do with having strong production at the 1C (Kopitar) and 3C (Richards) as well?

To look myopically at a generic point total - 45 points - and decide that it is unacceptable for a top 6 centre but Jeff Carter w 50 points is what makes LA an outstanding team is a mistake. Horvat potentially brings more to the table than Carter in terms of face offs, defensive coverage, and board work that he could easily become a more valuable player at 45 points than Carter at 50.

It's a terrible idea to peg a player on points alone and ignore the rest of what goes on in a 60 minute game.

The worst part is he's using the players position on a website rather than their actual position.

For example:
Kopitar 20:35
Carter 18:57
Richards 16:58
Stoll 15:51

Are LA's games 80 minutes long? Or is it that Kopitar is first line center, Carter is on the wing, Richards is 2nd line center and Stoll is 3rd? He's being dishonest using their listed positions

As it stands LA's 2nd line center produced 41 points last season

Same thing happened in Colorado
Duchene 18:29
O'Rielly 19:49
Mackinnon 17:20
Stastny 18:23

Mitchell 16:16
Talbot 16:19

Those are their listed centers. Do you think Talbot is their 6th line center? Or is it because the top 4 guys played in the top 6 and the bottom two played 3rd line?
For the record Mitchell had 32 points, Stoll had 27 points.... that's 3rd line center production.

 

[EON]

London didn't really have a chance to begin with. Injuries to their Defensive core really screwed them over

they were completely healthy for the Memorial Cup.

 

[Vankiller Whale]

People seem to be ignoring the fact that Horvat is ELITE defensively. He is not your average centre even if he doesn't put up huge amount of points. If your going to grade him on his "undesirable" amount of scoring, surely you have the brains to see that he is great defensively. Therefore a 45 point centre that is Elite at defense and at face-offs is fine by me as a second line centre. One that I think a cup contender should have.

Unfortunately you can't just assume his transition will be seamless and he's going to be elite defensively when he makes the NHL any more than you can assume that someone like Mantha is going to be an elite goal scorer who pots 40 on a regular basis.

 

[Baby Pettersson]

It's really a joke how people are so quick to judge his offensive game, but fail to realize his superior defensive game. You can't grade him on one thing and then be blind to his other attributes. If you are you shouldn't be discussing about the potential of prospects in the first place.

 

[Baby Pettersson]

Unfortunately you can't just assume his transition will be seamless and he's going to be elite defensively when he makes the NHL any more than you can assume that someone like Mantha is going to be an elite goal scorer who pots 40 on a regular basis.

Unfortunately you also can't be so quick to judge Horvats offensive game and assume he will be a low scoring centre. All I'm saying is if your going to judge his offensive production, you also have to equally judge his defensive game.

 

[CherryToke]

I'm wondering how Horvat is going to shutdown NHL stars when he can't skate. good luck with that Horvat.

 

[CanaFan]

The worst part is he's using the players position on a website rather than their actual position.

For example:
Kopitar 20:35
Carter 18:57
Richards 16:58
Stoll 15:51

Are LA's games 80 minutes long? Or is it that Kopitar is first line center, Carter is on the wing, Richards is 2nd line center and Stoll is 3rd? He's being dishonest using their listed positions

As it stands LA's 2nd line center produced 41 points last season

Same thing happened in Colorado
Duchene 18:29
O'Rielly 19:49
Mackinnon 17:20
Stastny 18:23

Mitchell 16:16
Talbot 16:19

Those are their listed centers. Do you think Talbot is their 6th line center? Or is it because the top 4 guys played in the top 6 and the bottom two played 3rd line?
For the record Mitchell had 32 points, Stoll had 27 points.... that's 3rd line center production.

Good points all and really, if anything, points to the ultimate factor being total team depth and having strong players in all positions. If Horvat's strong 60-foot game allows someone like Shinkaruk (for example) to take more chances offensively then the same total benefit to the team is created. I just can't get behind this notion that average offensive production (45 pts) combined with an excellent total game isn't an excellent player, esp. for 9th overall. Sure for a top 3 pick I'd be on board saying it isn't enough but that isnt where we got Horvat unlike Colorado and their army of 1C's. As for whether a "good team" can have _just_ a 45 point 2C, well I'd argue that has more to do with the REST of the team than it has to do with just the 5-10 points that the 2C isn't giving you.

 

[CanaFan]

I'm wondering how Horvat is going to shutdown NHL stars when he can't skate. good luck with that Horvat.

It'll be a miracle I guess. Oh what were we and all the scouts who pegged Horvat as a top 15 prospect last year thinking when he obviously can't even skate.

 

[torlev*]

The worst part is he's using the players position on a website rather than their actual position.

For example:
Kopitar 20:35
Carter 18:57
Richards 16:58
Stoll 15:51

Are LA's games 80 minutes long? Or is it that Kopitar is first line center, Carter is on the wing, Richards is 2nd line center and Stoll is 3rd? He's being dishonest using their listed positions

As it stands LA's 2nd line center produced 41 points last season

Same thing happened in Colorado
Duchene 18:29
O'Rielly 19:49
Mackinnon 17:20
Stastny 18:23

Mitchell 16:16
Talbot 16:19

Those are their listed centers. Do you think Talbot is their 6th line center? Or is it because the top 4 guys played in the top 6 and the bottom two played 3rd line?
For the record Mitchell had 32 points, Stoll had 27 points.... that's 3rd line center production.

No, I realize some of those guys didn't play that position all year. In fact if you'd like to read back I mentioned it.

But you're actually the clueless one here if you think you can just add up their ATOI and assume that means it was 80 minutes of Centre every game.

And if you'll read, I said where he would be on the depth chart. Just because RoR or whoever is playing wing right now doesn't mean someone else wouldn't be behind him on the depth chart at Centre if stastny or Duchene went down.

The reality is Centres frequently get shifted to wing for power plays or other situations. Its never gonna add up like that.

 

[torlev*]

Considering that he didn't get 2nd line minutes. Like you said, he played the most minutes on the team, since when does a "2nd line center" get played the most minutes?

Great! We agree! Keslers off year would most definitely not be considered among the best of second line Centres. Even with first line minutes..... Someone else seemed to think it was.

 

[Vankiller Whale]

Unfortunately you also can't be so quick to judge Horvats offensive game and assume he will be a low scoring centre. All I'm saying is if your going to judge his offensive production, you also have to equally judge his defensive game.

When did I do anything you're accusing me of?

 

[CherryToke]

It'll be a miracle I guess. Oh what were we and all the scouts who pegged Horvat as a top 15 prospect last year thinking when he obviously can't even skate.

scouts are wrong all the time if you haven't noticed. same with Mr. Gillis.

did you watch the mem cup? if that's how he plans on playing in the NHL he's a bottom 6 forward.

also, you didn't answer my question.

 

[torlev*]

It's really a joke how people are so quick to judge his offensive game, but fail to realize his superior defensive game. You can't grade him on one thing and then be blind to his other attributes. If you are you shouldn't be discussing about the potential of prospects in the first place.

I've pointed it out a few times, but if you're referring to me, I guess it takes a few more for it to sink in with you. I'm not referring to any particular player. Ive never actually said I agree with any 45 point projection. Somebody else labelled that as his ceiling, not me.

 

[Baby Pettersson]

When did I do anything you're accusing me of?

Well you implied Horvat is an average centre. If he is so elite defensively, rare talent on face-offs, great board work who is a big body and can hit, I can only assume you are talking about his lack of offensive abilities. No? Well then please enlighten me why you think he is so average.

 

[CanaFan]

No, I realize some of those guys didn't play that position all year. In fact if you'd like to read back I mentioned it.

But you're actually the clueless one here if you think you can just add up their ATOI and assume that means it was 80 minutes of Centre every game.

And if you'll read, I said where he would be on the depth chart. Just because RoR or whoever is playing wing right now doesn't mean someone else wouldn't be behind him on the depth chart at Centre if stastny or Duchene went down.

The reality is Centres frequently get shifted to wing for power plays or other situations. Its never gonna add up like that.

But you're the one who used the point totals of Colorados "3 centres" to illustrate why 45 points was not a sufficient total, so if you concede that these "3 centres" are really forwards who sometimes play centre and sometimes play wing higher up in the order, then it invalidates your point as it relates to a 45 point 2C since they are not playing equivalent 2C minutes or with second line wingers.

Anyway, done with this topic as it is bordering too close to the Horvat v Nichushkin thread and will likely be shut down soon. Feel free to continue in that thread if you really want to discuss this further.

 

[arttk]

Great! We agree! Keslers off year would most definitely not be considered among the best of second line Centres. Even with first line minutes..... Someone else seemed to think it was.

Sigh, you seem to be missing the point, or just choosing to ignore it. Kesler was playing first line minutes, of course his production is disappointing considering that. If he was playing 16-17 minutes and putting up 40ish points, it's absolutely fine production. It's just that our perspective has been skewed by his monster 40G season that makes some of us think that less than 70 points is poor for a 2nd line center.

 

[just22]

I'm wondering how Horvat is going to shutdown NHL stars when he can't skate. good luck with that Horvat.

Because he's got smarts? Plenty of average skaters are good defensively. And he's only 19, clearly his skating and physical ability has peaked. Pretty much all of the scouts and the knowledgeable posters that know their stuff project that Horvat would be a great defensive player. Why do you continually question them and make yourself look bad? If you're going to question something, question his offensive game. Oh wait, you already do.

 

[CanaFan]

scouts are wrong all the time if you haven't noticed. same with Mr. Gillis.

did you watch the mem cup? if that's how he plans on playing in the NHL he's a bottom 6 forward.

also, you didn't answer my question.

Sure I did, I said it'll be a miracle. Seems to be the answer you're looking for so why not be happy with it? Others of us don't have that question mind you so it doesn't need answering.

 

[Zarpan]

I'm wondering how Horvat is going to shutdown NHL stars when he can't skate. good luck with that Horvat.

We'll have to see how he develops... The knock on ROR was that his skating ability was a bit questionable. At least Horvat doesn't seem to have the physical limitations that Cody has that affects his skating.

 

[CherryToke]

Because he's got smarts? Plenty of average skaters are good defensively. And he's only 19, clearly his skating and physical ability has peaked. Pretty much all of the scouts and the knowledgeable posters that know their stuff project that Horvat would be a great defensive player. Why do you continually question them and make yourself look bad? If you're going to question something, question his offensive game. Oh wait, you already do.

I question his skating and conditioning mostly. how many poor skaters turn out to be solid two-way centers?

Cody Hodgson was considered a great two-way prospect at one point, with excellent skating!..

http://www.hockeysfuture.com/prospects/cody_hodgson/

"Talent Analysis

Hodgson is a solid all around talent. He does not possess blinding speed, or flashy moves, but he tends to get the job done. He has developed into a fine two-way player. Hodgson is an extremely smart player who uses all of his skills in both ends of the ice. Excellent skater, very strong on the puck, can quarterback the powerplay. Hodson has very good hands and excellent on ice-vision."