Mediocre finns in Nhl...

[Selannne]

Why are the finnish players so bad in Nhl? I mean nowadays it's good if one player produce 50 points in a full season. And goal scoring is brutal bad! All we have is good goaltending. Some youngsters coming up,but they doesn't produce much either. For example the swedes produce young players for example,Forsberg, Karlsson,Karlsson,Hedman,Brodin,Lindholm.....they have about 5-10 players who can produce about 50-100 points... And they have almost 80 players in the Nhl...They got stars like, Zetterberg,Karlsson,Hedman,Nyqvist,Sedins,Bäckström, .....i mean they got 2-3 good Olympic team rosters playing in Nhl. Finland got a half mediocre.... And hockey ins't even the biggest sport in Sweden as it is in Finland. And Sweden is a pretty small country as well,compared to Canada,Usa,Russia (the top teams) what tha f?!ck are the finns doing? I mean it can't take 20-30 years to produce atleast a pair of real superstars for a crazy hockey country like Finland... What is your toughts about this??

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[Seattle Slewfoot]

Perkele!! Saku and Teemu retired... two greats. But still... Filppula? Both Jokinens? Mikko? And Teravainen and Maatta are very promising.

Goalie-wise, the all-time NHL save % leader is Tuukka. Pekka is the second- or third-best goalie in the league. Remember, Finland has only about 60% of Sweden's population.

 

[JJTT]

Have you been living under a rock for past ten years, Selannne?

 

[Selannne]

~53.000 registered players in Finland....and ~68.000 in Sweden... ~80 Swedes in Nhl and ~20 finns in Nhl. Something is reaaaally wrong in The finnish junior system,and training. Selanne and Kurri was our latest real stars. Mikko,JJ,filppula has a pair of good seasons each,but they are not stars...

 

[JJTT]

~53.000 registered players in Finland....and ~68.000 in Sweden... ~80 Swedes in Nhl and ~20 finns in Nhl. Something is reaaaally wrong in The finnish junior system,and training. Selanne and Kurri was our latest real stars. Mikko,JJ,filppula has a pair of good seasons each,but they are not stars...

Not anymore, we fixed it.

 

[Selannne]

Have you been living under a rock for past ten years, Selannne?

No. I have been following these mediocre players for ten years now. But the question is why is it the same story with every finnish player,first they are overhyped,when they comes to nhl they doesn't produce so good,so they end up as third line players...the list is sooo long of these players. The Swedes they comes to nhl,get the chance,and takes the chance,and producing pretty well. And they get better and better for every season...why is it so different? is it just the finnish bad mentality or?

 

[FiLe]

Not anymore, we fixed it.

This is indeed the answer.

The current situation can be blamed on the bad system. However, that system has been fixed - and it's already producing better players than the broken one. However, it will take a few more years to truly see the effects.

The timing of this thread could not have been more inappropiate. Ten years ago, this would have been a valid concern. Ten years from now, it will be a non-issue. The kids born in the early 90s are already showing promise - and they are nothing but the front guard.

 

[Selannne]

This is indeed the answer.

The current situation can be blamed on the bad system. However, that system has been fixed - and it's already producing better players than the broken one. However, it will take a few more years to truly see the effects.

The timing of this thread could not have been more inappropiate. Ten years ago, this would have been a valid concern. Ten years from now, it will be a non-issue. The kids born in the early 90s are already showing promise - and they are nothing but the front guard.

Well i hope you're right! But there is no guarantee for that! Not any of the talented youngsters have shown any "future star status" yet,like for example Filip Forsberg,and last night E Lindholm had a 5 point game...Barkov is pretty the same player as last season...Granlund too...

 

[Seattle Slewfoot]

If you saw the Rangers-Blackhawks game (?), you would've heard the color commentator saying that Teravainen had played the best game of any player on the ice.

As numerous as the Swedes are, the fact is that many (most?) are seen as "soft" here, a la the Sedins. Not the Finns.

Also, compare Norway... 2 active NHL players, both only half-Norwegian.

Finland only lost in the Olympics because Tuukka came down with the flu, and no Pekka to back him up.

 

[FiLe]

Well i hope you're right! But there is no guarantee for that! Not any of the talented youngsters have shown any "future star status" yet,like for example Filip Forsberg,and last night E Lindholm had a 5 point game...Barkov is pretty the same player as last season...Granlund too...

There is no hoping. The numbers already prove that the system has been fixed.

A total of 29 Finns have gone in the first round in the NHL draft. Six of them have been goalies. That leaves 23 skaters.

From the first (Teemu Selänne in 1988) to 1999, a total of seven Finnish skaters went in the first round in various drafts: Selänne, Saku Koivu, Aki Berg, Teemu Riihijärvi, Miika Elomo, Olli Jokinen, Jani Rita. Four of them became career NHLers. Two went on to become what could be called NHL stars, at least in their prime. And of course, one superstar.

Over the years 2000-2009 there was eight Finnish skaters who went in the first round: Mikko Koivu, Tuomo Ruutu, Joni Pitkänen, Jesse Niinimäki, Sean Bergenheim, Lauri Tukonen, Petteri Nokelainen, Lauri Korpikoski. Four became career NHLers, none became bona fide stars. Koivu and Pitkänen are borderline cases.

Now, from 2010 to present... we have had eight this far: Mikael Granlund, Joel Armia, Olli Määttä, Teuvo Teräväinen, Aleksander Barkov, Rasmus Ristolainen, Julius Honka, Kasperi Kapanen. Mikko Rantanen will go in the first round this year. And we already know at least one name you can bet money on for 2016, but the chances are there will be more.

Think. It's only been five years since the start of the decade - and we've already produced more first-round picks than on either of the previous two decades. Also, you can already say that all of those names up to Honka will be career NHLers. The jury is still out there for Kapanen and Rantanen, but their chances certainly don't look bad. Also, given how young they are, all of them still have the potential to be bona fide stars. And the machine is not slowing down, oh no... it's picking up more speed.

And note that we still have names like Vatanen, Markus Granlund, Pulkkinen, who did not go on the first round but are still shaping up to become career NHLers.

There is no guarantee that we will see some real star power in the upcoming years. But there is serious strength in those numbers. More than enough for me to say with reasonable confidence that ten years from now, Finnish hockey players will be known for something else than their mediocrity.

 

[Seattle Slewfoot]

And of course there is Matt Niskanen, who is of completely Finnish descent, but raised in Minnesota. Sadly, he speaks not a word of Finnish, though he is fluent in the difficult American language.

 

[wings5]

I see what Selanne is saying in some points even though Finland fixed the development system the results have not been see just yet there is no player 90-95 born who is a star player compared to Swedens Karlsson, OEL, Hedman, Forsberg coming up etc. It does look like the upcoming age groups are much more promising than they were 5-10 years ago however, some are overhyped but in general they are still better prospects. Part of the main difference I saw in Finnish prospects was the constant problem of skating, hopefully that will be improved and they will produce good skaters like USA, Sweden, Russia.

 

[Ihmeilja]

Thats the old thing people have been crying for some ten or fifteen years. As already said in this thread things are going in bettter direction by now.
There was an era when finnish junior production was messed up and was coughing.
Age groups from 76 to 85 were not producing players as well as earlier and promising players of these age groups became busts with a high percentage, then the 86 and 87 age groups were bust age groups, that produced a number of promising players that turned out busts. Then there were the 88 and the 89 age groups that are one of the worst hockey age croups ever from Finland.

There started to be light in the end of the tunnel with the 90 age group. No real NHL star caliber prospects from that age group either, but many good players that seemed to have potential as a marginal NHLers or euroleague stars. By now it has turned out that the 90 age group is an age group of underachievers.
Anyway 90 age group was the start of things getting into better direction.

Later we have seen a couple of junior stars like Rajala and Tanus going to stall with their development and a group of good prospects whos development slowed down after making a jump into pro hockey at an early age: Teemu Hartikainen, Eero Elo, Joonas Rask, Jere Sallinen, Jani Lajunen, Iiro Pakarinen, Joonas Nättinen, Teemu Pulkkinen, Joonas Donskoi, Teemu Rautiainen, Alexander Ruuttu, Joel Armia, Miikka Salomäki, Artturi Lehkonen, Juuso Ikonen, Joose Antonen. Though some of them are on their way to become NHLers and most of them will make a great career in Europe.

 

[Selannne]

Thats the old thing people have been crying for some ten or fifteen years. As already said in this thread things are going in bettter direction by now.
There was an era when finnish junior production was messed up and was coughing.
Age groups from 76 to 85 were not producing players as well as earlier and promising players of these age groups became busts with a high percentage, then the 86 and 87 age groups were bust age groups, that produced a number of promising players that turned out busts. Then there were the 88 and the 89 age groups that are one of the worst hockey age croups ever from Finland.

There started to be light in the end of the tunnel with the 90 age group. No real NHL star caliber prospects from that age group either, but many good players that seemed to have potential as a marginal NHLers or euroleague stars. By now it has turned out that the 90 age group is an age group of underachievers.
Anyway 90 age group was the start of things getting into better direction.

Later we have seen a couple of junior stars like Rajala and Tanus going to stall with their development and a group of good prospects whos development slowed down after making a jump into pro hockey at an early age: Teemu Hartikainen, Eero Elo, Joonas Rask, Jere Sallinen, Jani Lajunen, Iiro Pakarinen, Joonas Nättinen, Teemu Pulkkinen, Joonas Donskoi, Teemu Rautiainen, Alexander Ruuttu, Joel Armia, Miikka Salomäki, Artturi Lehkonen, Juuso Ikonen, Joose Antonen. Though some of them are on their way to become NHLers and most of them will make a great career in Europe.

Yeah! As I said this list is pretty loong with busts and players who has stalled in development in an early age. We know that every hockey playing kids dream is to one day play in NHL. And when you are 20-25 years old it isn't too late for the last step. So why do they just stall?? I think this is pretty much an mentality question actually...Why is koskenkorva and party importanter for them than hard/good training even in the summer?? The swedes have a tendence to do whatever it takes to be a regular player in an Nhl team! Not the finns... It feels a little bit like the swedes will allways want to be best in the world,and it's not just in hockey. You see it in the most kind of sports..and many other things too. But not the finns. They're happy if they got a bronze medal then and then or if they have some i icetime in some crappy league in europe...

 

[FiLe]

*Yawn*

This isn't a new discovery really. It has pretty much been talked to death over the past decade or so. Most of that talk has, of course, been rather valid. But now? Now it feels like beating a dead horse, since the ship is finally turning.

Of course, it is not instantly noticeable - at least for now, one will have to go to the numbers to see it, so it will probably get talked a bit more. It's entirely human. However, the ones still talking about are also making themselves seem a little silly in the process.

Even if they can get a slightly too uplifting and I often find myself playing the balancing act, I find threads like these far more refreshing. Perhaps it's simply the fact that a while back, they were pretty much unimaginable.

 

[Selannne]

*Yawn*

This isn't a new discovery really. It has pretty much been talked to death over the past decade or so. Most of that talk has, of course, been rather valid. But now? Now it feels like beating a dead horse, since the ship is finally turning.

Of course, it is not instantly noticeable - at least for now, one will have to go to the numbers to see it, so it will probably get talked a bit more. It's entirely human. However, the ones still talking about are also making themselves seem a little silly in the process.

Even if they can get a slightly too uplifting and I often find myself playing the balancing act, I find threads like these far more refreshing. Perhaps it's simply the fact that a while back, they were pretty much unimaginable.

No,unfortunately it has been a very long discovery. I think it would be quite important or atleast interesting to discuss this until we see better guarantees of improvement than some draft numbers,the draft numbers doesn't say that much actually,the stats in NHL do. We have seen all these Nokelainen,Niinimäki first rounders that didn't pan out. Now we have these 90's born and I can't really say that many of them has pan out either. Can you?

 

[FiLe]

Now we have these 90's born and I can't really say that many of them has pan out either. Can you?

No, I can't. But the reason for that is that they've only been in the NHL for a year or two. But I can say that pretty much each end every one of our 1st round picks from 2010 onwards are on a steady track to become career NHLers. Which means they're miles ahead of Niinimäkis and Tukonens when they were in that age.

And again I find myself emphasizing the strength in numbers. Our production up to this decade has... not been good. Not enough solid prospects, and too far between. In an environment like that, it truly becomes a crapshoot who pans out and who does not. But when the machine crunches out a promising kid, one after another... the odds of producing a genuine star improves drastically.

We're not dealing with absolutes here. I can't promise anyone we'll see a new Selänne in five years' time. But not being able to promise that does not mean we can automatically conclude that they will all be subpar then.

 

[Selannne]

No, I can't. But the reason for that is that they've only been in the NHL for a year or two. But I can say that pretty much each end every one of our 1st round picks from 2010 onwards are on a steady track to become career NHLers. Which means they're miles ahead of Niinimäkis and Tukonens when they were in that age.

And again I find myself emphasizing the strength in numbers. Our production up to this decade has... not been good. Not enough solid prospects, and too far between. In an environment like that, it truly becomes a crapshoot who pans out and who does not. But when the machine crunches out a promising kid, one after another... the odds of producing a genuine star improves drastically.

We're not dealing with absolutes here. I can't promise anyone we'll see a new Selänne in five years' time. But not being able to promise that does not mean we can automatically conclude that they will all be subpar then.

Yeah I hope they pan out as good Nhl players,but theirs development in Nhl hasn't been that good as for example many of the first rounders from Sweden. I think if Barkov is a future star in this league,then he should already be the best player in his team,because You don't find many stars in Panthers. But his production is pretty much the same as last season. Not any big step forward at all,which have to come if he wants to be a star like,OEL,Karlsson,Landeskog,Hedman,Bäckström,Forsberg... It's the same thing with Granlund,he hasn't developed much either,if you look at the production. The worst scenario is,that these talented players ends up as two booring defensive forwards in a third line with PK,like the most of the finns in Nhl do.

 

[wings5]

Yeah! As I said this list is pretty loong with busts and players who has stalled in development in an early age. We know that every hockey playing kids dream is to one day play in NHL. And when you are 20-25 years old it isn't too late for the last step. So why do they just stall?? I think this is pretty much an mentality question actually...Why is koskenkorva and party importanter for them than hard/good training even in the summer?? The swedes have a tendence to do whatever it takes to be a regular player in an Nhl team! Not the finns... It feels a little bit like the swedes will allways want to be best in the world,and it's not just in hockey. You see it in the most kind of sports..and many other things too. But not the finns. They're happy if they got a bronze medal then and then or if they have some i icetime in some crappy league in europe...

I don't think it's lack of work ethic, Finns have some of the hardest working players who live and breath hockey and give 100 %. The main problem I was seeing is majority couldn't keep up with the NHL pace when they came over.

 

[FiLe]

Yeah I hope they pan out as good Nhl players,but theirs development in Nhl hasn't been that good as for example many of the first rounders from Sweden.

Out of curiosity, who are these superb Swedes you constantly compare our meager Finnish boys to?

 

[Selannne]

I don't think it's lack of work ethic, Finns have some of the hardest working players who live and breath hockey and give 100 %. The main problem I was seeing is majority couldn't keep up with the NHL pace when they came over.

Okey! But that is a thing they should be able to train up then.

 

[Esko6]

Finland is slowly rising up after some horrendous years. I think we are getting close to the average level of Finnish junior production, but I feel like the last push to get us close to the level of Sweden is missing. One thing a lot of people are saying is that Finnish players start playing various systems way too early and individual skills suffer.

There is actually a bit of a battle going on in Finland between two philosophies, and I still haven't seen a clear definition of what they are talking about.

The offensive camp wants quick movement, aggression and reactive play. Forechecking, fast transitions and individual skill and instincts are important. The new national team coach Kari Jalonen is said to play this style. I feel like this style is much better suited to smaller rinks.

The "our game" camp plays a calculated game where control of the puck is emphasized and players are trained to work in unison, it is also called "cooperation hockey". Players try to build controlled attacks and the defence often spends a while holding the puck in their own zone to avoid bad outlet passes and turnovers. The previous national team coach Jukka Jalonen and junior coach Karri Kivi are examples. Teemu Selänne said he does not understand this type of complex game at all and was very critical of it, saying that it would never work in the NHL.

The Finnish league actually is one of the best leagues in the world when it comes to maturity and complexity of team tactics, however the skill of the players seems to be falling compared to other leagues. I think this focus on systems is hurting our junior production, but it does lead to some surprisingly good results in tournaments.

 

[Selannne]

Out of curiosity, who are these superb Swedes you constantly compare our meager Finnish boys to?

Well first,are you following NHL? It's quite many superb/good swedes there...of the younger ones...Landeskog,22 years old,already captain for his team and his production is quite good. Karlsson already a Norris trophy winner and his production is better than any finnish forward,year after year. Filip Forsberg,played ~ 13 games in Nhl before this season, 20 years old and already better production than any finnish player can score. OEL,best player and defenceman on his terrible team,23 years old. Hedman,24,pretty excellent player. J Klingberg first year in Nhl,36 points in 52 games now,and he is a D. Hampus Lindholm,21...terrific defenceman in Ducks. Brodin the same in Minnesota. Well,you see the list is so long,but here are some of the 20-24 years old...

 

[FiLe]

Well first,are you following NHL? It's quite many superb/good swedes there...of the younger ones...Landeskog,22 years old,already captain for his team and his production is quite good. Karlsson already a Norris trophy winner and his production is better than any finnish forward,year after year. Filip Forsberg,played ~ 13 games in Nhl before this season, 20 years old and already better production than any finnish player can score. OEL,best player and defenceman on his terrible team,23 years old. Hedman,24,pretty excellent player. J Klingberg first year in Nhl,36 points in 52 games now,and he is a D. Hampus Lindholm,21...terrific defenceman in Ducks. Brodin the same in Minnesota. Well,you see the list is so long,but here are some of the 20-24 years old...

Yes. I know of them. And who do we have?

Sami Vatanen - terrific defenseman with the Ducks.
Mikael Granlund - top line centerman with the Minnesota Wild.
Olli Määttä - top pairing defenseman with the Pittsburgh Penguins.
Jori Lehterä - top-six centerman with the St. Louis Blues.
Aleksander Barkov - 1st line centerman with the Florida Panthers.
Rasmus Ristolainen - solid regular in the Buffalo Sabres lineup.
Teuvo Teräväinen - taking his first strides in the NHL, hasn't shown much, but there are already quite many Hawks fans who are sold on him being their 2nd most important forward in the future - paling only to Jonathan Toews.
Teemu Pulkkinen - guy's been ripping the AHL a new one this year. Slam-dunk case to make the Red Wings roster next year.
Petteri Lindbohm - the guy might be a 3rd pair stay-at-home D with no fancy tricks with the St. Louis Blues, but hey, what was the expectation for him? A 3rd pair stay-at-home D with no fancy tricks... in Vaasan Sport.

Then we have Markus Granlund, Joel Armia, Jyrki Jokipakka, Julius Honka... all who seem to be on the curve of becoming very solid NHLers.

Oh, and all the players here, save for Lehterä, are 20-24 years of age. Well Barkov's only 19, so he doesn't count.

So perhaps I should rephrase... who are these mediocre Finns you are constantly referring to?

 

[Selannne]

Yes. I know of them. And who do we have?

Sami Vatanen - terrific defenseman with the Ducks.
Mikael Granlund - top line centerman with the Minnesota Wild.
Olli Määttä - top pairing defenseman with the Pittsburgh Penguins.
Jori Lehterä - top-six centerman with the St. Louis Blues.
Aleksander Barkov - 1st line centerman with the Florida Panthers.
Rasmus Ristolainen - solid regular in the Buffalo Sabres lineup.
Teuvo Teräväinen - taking his first strides in the NHL, hasn't shown much, but there are already quite many Hawks fans who are sold on him being their 2nd most important forward in the future - paling only to Jonathan Toews.
Teemu Pulkkinen - guy's been ripping the AHL a new one this year. Slam-dunk case to make the Red Wings roster next year.
Petteri Lindbohm - the guy might be a 3rd pair stay-at-home D with no fancy tricks with the St. Louis Blues, but hey, what was the expectation for him? A 3rd pair stay-at-home D with no fancy tricks... in Vaasan Sport.

Then we have Markus Granlund, Joel Armia, Jyrki Jokipakka, Julius Honka... all who seem to be on the curve of becoming very solid NHLers.

Oh, and all the players here, save for Lehterä, are 20-24 years of age. Well Barkov's only 19, so he doesn't count.

So perhaps I should rephrase... who are these mediocre Finns you are constantly referring to?

Yeah! These all playing in Nhl,but they aren't at the same level as these swedes i wrote down. Theirs production isn't as good as the swedes. Their roles is not the same. If you don't see the difference,then you have to take off your blue/white glasses.