Mediocre finns in Nhl...

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Erikfromfin

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May 18, 2013
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[Mod]Like Jarmo Kekäläinen said you can do well at World juniors with no high end talent but you can only win with Elite talent.

As i see it
Goaltenders in past: Equal
Goaltenders today: Finland better
Goaltenders in future: Finland better/Equal

Defenders in past: Sweden better
Defenders today: Sweden better
Defenders in future: Sweden better

Forwards in the past: Sweden better
Forwards today: Sweden better
Forwards in future: Finland better
 
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wings5

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Jan 6, 2008
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[Mod] Like Jarmo Kekäläinen said you can do well at World juniors with no high end talent but you can only win with Elite talent.

As i see it
Goaltenders in past: Equal
Goaltenders today: Finland better
Goaltenders in future: Finland better/Equal

Defenders in past: Sweden better
Defenders today: Sweden better
Defenders in future: Sweden better

Forwards in the past: Sweden better
Forwards today: Sweden better
Forwards in future: Finland better

Winning doesn't entail necessarily future success and upcoming talent. A country can be blessed with a good age group like Denmark did this year, and next year they will likely be garbage. Depth is the key, consistant results. Also winning can be more based on tactics and luck especially in the junior game. One cannot predict the future, show me this crystal ball.
 
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Erikfromfin

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show me this crystal ball.
File and Selannne already jousted about it for a lenght....

Simple fact that Sweden hasnt got big center like Barkov in theyre system since Sundin and center version Sedin getting older aswell. I like Wennberg and Zibanejad is good too but they dont come close to Sasha. Elias Lindholm is not NHL center.
Granlund and Teräväinen are better and more proven than William Nylander but they all in same category.
Few years down the line if not 1 or 2 I would be extremely surprised if Puljujärvi couldnt emulate early success of Forsberg
Landeskog is steady player but Rantanen posses similiar type potential with even bigger frame.
Could go on and on but bottomline is Olympic/World Cup forwards Finland will have are simply better. You can only fit 6 forwards into your top 6. Swedens depth is only good when injuries occur but it doesnt matter If they got 20x more Jacob Delaroses against our one Artturi Lehkonen when those guys are not difference makers.
 

FiLe

Mr. Know-It-Nothing
Oct 9, 2009
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Simple fact that Sweden hasnt got big center like Barkov in theyre system since Sundin and center version Sedin getting older aswell. I like Wennberg and Zibanejad is good too but they dont come close to Sasha. Elias Lindholm is not NHL center.
Nicklas Bäckström is not particularly big, but he's still there regardless.

We need a scorer or two, but I suppose it still is a good point to raise that with Barkov, Teräväinen, Granlund x2, Lehterä and who else we seem well covered down the middle to unforeseeable future. Also a bunch of names in the KHL who can cover in a pinch. True comparison should still be made a few years down the road, though.
 
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wings5

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Jan 6, 2008
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File and Selannne already jousted about it for a lenght....

Simple fact that Sweden hasnt got big center like Barkov in theyre system since Sundin and center version Sedin getting older aswell. I like Wennberg and Zibanejad is good too but they dont come close to Sasha. Elias Lindholm is not NHL center.
Granlund and Teräväinen are better and more proven than William Nylander but they all in same category.
Few years down the line if not 1 or 2 I would be extremely surprised if Puljujärvi couldnt emulate early success of Forsberg
Landeskog is steady player but Rantanen posses similiar type potential with even bigger frame.
Could go on and on but bottomline is Olympic/World Cup forwards Finland will have are simply better. You can only fit 6 forwards into your top 6. Swedens depth is only good when injuries occur but it doesnt matter If they got 20x more Jacob Delaroses against our one Artturi Lehkonen when those guys are not difference makers.

They don't have a Sundinesque player but they still have quality forwards I don't know how you can say with certainty Finlands forwards are better. Sweden still has quality forwards Nyquist, Backstrom, Hornqvist, Steen along with younger promising players like Landeskog, Forsberg, Rakell, Lindholm, Zibanejad, Nylander etc. Even if they may lack the generational players they produced in the 70 borns. The biggest difference is on D they have a steady stream of defenceman being produced each year. After Karlsson, OEL, Hedman, Hjalmarsson, Stralman, they have H.Lindholm, Klingberg, Larsson, Klefbom, Brodin coming up.
 

FiLe

Mr. Know-It-Nothing
Oct 9, 2009
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This is just so fun thread.
Mm-hmm. Thanks for opening it.

While I find it unlikely that the Swedes would ever have a true reason to envy us in anything hockey-related (well, maybe a little with goalie production), Erikfromfin's vision is not completely unrelatable. Regardless, would be a weird day if it comes to pass.
 

QnebO

Wheel, snipe, celly
Feb 11, 2010
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This is wrong information, or old information accurately. Finnish junior system really was "tanking" for long time. But it has changed and started to produce now. It produces quality medicore NHL'ers but also guys like Vatanen, Pulkkinen, Barkov, Armia. These guys will not be medicore. They are either bust out of NHL or high impact star players at their prime. Vatanen already is star level offensvie defenseman.

It feels great to be right in this one. I wouldn't have believed that I am forced to say your writing is bs 10 years ago.. but it is.

Do you realize we can't produce guys like Selanne or Kurri every year? There are only 18 players in history of game, counting easier scoring eras, that have scored 600. Sweden and Russia have zero players that have scored 600 goals. That's right, Russia and Sweden haven't 600 goals or more scorers! Country of 5 million people will not produce this level of legends on yearly basis. Just because selanne is retiring there is no reason to panic. Look at our juniors going there and braking in NHL rosters at their first year in NA! Respect to the kinds of Granlund, Teräväinen, Lindbohm, Jokipakka also. More is coming! Wait for Puljujärvi, Kapanen (yes) and others! There will be new names every single year, some of them all will be stars as I said, and I usually am right about players here at HFboards as you have already seen!

I'd say Sweden has better players atm, but that's because they refreshed their juniorsystem earlier than finns, mostly becuase of that. We are coming the same route and are now understanding the importance of individual skills. I think a good "joker" card into the soup is Santeri Saari, who has alot of experience for he's age at top level. I see him possibly becoming at least new Kukkonen / Väänänen but better. Kukkonen & Väänänen, specially like 2-4 years ago, were really underrated players.
 
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Selannne

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Mar 9, 2015
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This is wrong information, or old information accurately. Finnish junior system really was "tanking" for long time. But it has changed and started to produce now. It produces quality medicore NHL'ers but also guys like Vatanen, Pulkkinen, Barkov, Armia. These guys will not be medicore. They are either bust out of NHL or high impact star players at their prime. Vatanen already is star level offensvie defenseman.

It feels great to be right in this one. I wouldn't have believed that I am forced to say your writing is bs 10 years ago.. but it is.

Do you realize we can't produce guys like Selanne or Kurri every year? There are only 18 players in history of game, counting easier scoring eras, that have scored 600. Sweden and Russia have zero players that have scored 600 goals. That's right, Russia and Sweden haven't 600 goals or more scorers! Country of 5 million people will not produce this level of legends on yearly basis. Just because selanne is retiring there is no reason to panic. Look at our juniors going there and braking in NHL rosters at their first year in NA! Respect to the kinds of Granlund, Teräväinen, Lindbohm, Jokipakka also. More is coming! Wait for Puljujärvi, Kapanen (yes) and others! There will be new names every single year, some of them all will be stars as I said, and I usually am right about players here at HFboards as you have already seen!

I'd say Sweden has better players atm, but that's because they refreshed their juniorsystem earlier than finns, mostly becuase of that. We are coming the same route and are now understanding the importance of individual skills. I think a good "joker" card into the soup is Santeri Saari, who has alot of experience for he's age at top level. I see him possibly becoming at least new Kukkonen / Väänänen but better. Kukkonen & Väänänen, specially like 2-4 years ago, were really underrated players.

of course Finland can´t produce Selanne´s every year. What I mean is that we doesn´t have a single finn over 50 points yet this season. That`s pretty bad result. Sweden has 7 players over right now,in the end of the season there are atleast 10 players. Russia got 5 players over 50 right now. Hockey world thought,Barkov was a 60 point player this season,Granlund too,but they aren´t near that level yet. well,Sweden and Russia have zero 600 goal players yes,but they got Malkin,Ovie,Datsyuk,Tarasenko, Zeta,Sedins,Karlsson, they are all superstars,and you know that!
 

QnebO

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Feb 11, 2010
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of course Finland can´t produce Selanne´s every year. What I mean is that we doesn´t have a single finn over 50 points yet this season. That`s pretty bad result. Sweden has 7 players over right now,in the end of the season there are atleast 10 players. Russia got 5 players over 50 right now. Hockey world thought,Barkov was a 60 point player this season,Granlund too,but they aren´t near that level yet. well,Sweden and Russia have zero 600 goal players yes,but they got Malkin,Ovie,Datsyuk,Tarasenko, Zeta,Sedins,Karlsson, they are all superstars,and you know that!

We have generation change going on. The offensive players are all at junior state, maybe with exception of Mikael Granlund, who isn't even close to hes prime either though.

Sami Vatanen is doing over 0,5ppg as Defenseme while being plus 6. Pretty much star player already!
 

FiLe

Mr. Know-It-Nothing
Oct 9, 2009
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What I mean is that we doesn´t have a single finn over 50 points yet this season. That`s pretty bad result.
Yes it is, but you've already been given an answer to this complaint - our players are either too young or too old at the moment. And that's it. You need to cool your heels and wait for a season or two. Complaining and calling 'em mediocre is not going to make 'em mature any faster.

Hockey world thought,Barkov was a 60 point player this season,Granlund too,but they aren´t near that level yet.
Who did, exactly? You have this statement in writing?
 

Selannne

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Mar 9, 2015
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Yes it is, but you've already been given an answer to this complaint - our players are either too young or too old at the moment. And that's it. You need to cool your heels and wait for a season or two. Complaining and calling 'em mediocre is not going to make 'em mature any faster.

Who did, exactly? You have this statement in writing?

well,most of the Panthers fans....many finns too

do you mean the 31 year olds Ruutu,Koivu,Jokinen and 30 year old Filppula are too old already? that isn´t old... Jokinen hasn´t Malkin anymore...Ruutu is bad,Koivu I don´t know,but he has a pretty bad season too..and Filppula has stars around him so that´s a pretty mediocre result for him too...
 
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QnebO

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Feb 11, 2010
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well,most of the Panthers fans....many finns too

do you mean the 31 year olds Ruutu,Koivu,Jokinen and 30 year old Filppula are too old already? that isn´t old... Jokinen hasn´t Malkin anymore...Ruutu is bad,Koivu I don´t know,but he has a pretty bad season too..and Filppula has stars around him so that´s a pretty mediocre result for him too...

Do you realize our offensive guys simply aren't in their prime, outside of Lehterä, who wasn't regarded as Elite talent as a kid. He can do it now when he is in Prime.

Vatman, Barkov, MG are scoring very decently for youngsters. Specially Barkov, He could play tappara A-juniors atm. Pulkkinen is lightning the AHL league, will pretty much surely become offensive threat in NHL in next 3 seasons.

Koivu and Filps are scoring solidly but they're starting to be over their prime. They are going for 60-70 point seasons, but they are two way players. It's not really bad players to have in your NT.

We must wait our kids turn 25 before we can expect them to be NHL elite. Well perhpas outside Maatta, Vatman and Barkov from current NHLers - they can make that earlier, Vatman already did it, now he has to show he stays there.

Hockey world didin't expect Barkov to dominate this season based on last season. He's still an A-junnu. Remeber it before expecting him to lit it up in NHL with now or never mentality.. realism before calling some one bust pls.
 
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FiLe

Mr. Know-It-Nothing
Oct 9, 2009
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do you mean the 31 year olds Ruutu,Koivu,Jokinen and 30 year old Filppula are too old already? that isn´t old... Jokinen hasn´t Malkin anymore...Ruutu is bad,Koivu I don´t know,but he has a pretty bad season too..and Filppula has stars around him so that´s a pretty mediocre result for him too...
Filppula can actually be excused because of said stars. Yes, he's surrounded by them - but does not actually regularly play in a same unit with them. Stamkos, Callahan, Drouin and co are all on a different line. So Flip's support scoring - and yet will very likely hit the 50-point mark before the season winds down. That's actually pretty good, considering.

Koivu and Jokinen have had bigger roles in their respective teams, so they can't be excused by that, but until very lately, their teams have pretty much sucked as a whole. The Wild has only guy - Parise - who has barely cleared that 50-point-mark (does that make him mediocre?) and the best scorer in the Panthers, Bjugstad, only has just cleared 40. Jokinen's their third best regardless, with 6+31.

And no, they aren't age-old, but like QnebO pointed out, they have never really been major impact players in the first place. The ones that have or will be are either winding down already or still coming.

What exactly is the point of this thread, if I may ask? To complain about the present? Because that is a pointless exercise, no wailing and pouting is gonna make the immediate situation any better. And you've already been told that the future will be better, by essentially every other poster visiting this thread. Yet you keep droning on how no one is good noooooow...
 

wings5

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Do you realize our offensive guys simply aren't in their prime, outside of Lehterä, who wasn't regarded as Elite talent as a kid. He can do it now when he is in Prime.

Vatman, Barkov, MG are scoring very decently for youngsters. Specially Barkov, He could play tappara A-juniors atm. Pulkkinen is lightning the AHL league, will pretty much surely become offensive threat in NHL in next 3 seasons.

Koivu and Filps are scoring solidly but they're starting to be over their prime. They are going for 60-70 point seasons, but they are two way players. It's not really bad players to have in your NT.

We must wait our kids turn 25 before we can expect them to be NHL elite. Well perhpas outside Maatta, Vatman and Barkov from current NHLers - they can make that earlier, Vatman already did it, now he has to show he stays there.

Hockey world didin't expect Barkov to dominate this season based on last season. He's still an A-junnu. Remeber it before expecting him to lit it up in NHL with now or never mentality.. realism before calling some one bust pls.

I get both your points and Selanne's and I feel in 10 years Finland might be at Swedens level in terms of star players. In juniors they already achieve good results against them but they also usually employ solid team tactics to win. The point I don't agree with is the players you are saying are past their primes. You have Filppula who as been a 60 + point player and is 30, Koivu who has been 60-70 point player who is 32 both of whom have regressed, if you compare them to Zetterberg and Sedins, while they are and have always been superior players their play has not tailed off and their PPG is still pretty consistent with career averages despite being in their mid 30s same with Sundin and Alfredsson in thier playing careers. Why would the Finns hit their peak at a much younger age. Also why is it you have to wait until 25 to be elite when other countries have elite players u23?
 

Seattle Slewfoot

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Mar 8, 2015
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Tuukka Rask is the all-time save percentage leader among NHL goalies. Period.

Forwards, meh. Who is better than the Finns at defensive warfare?
 

QnebO

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Feb 11, 2010
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I get both your points and Selanne's and I feel in 10 years Finland might be at Swedens level in terms of star players. In juniors they already achieve good results against them but they also usually employ solid team tactics to win. The point I don't agree with is the players you are saying are past their primes. You have Filppula who as been a 60 + point player and is 30, Koivu who has been 60-70 point player who is 32 both of whom have regressed, if you compare them to Zetterberg and Sedins, while they are and have always been superior players their play has not tailed off and their PPG is still pretty consistent with career averages despite being in their mid 30s same with Sundin and Alfredsson in thier playing careers. Why would the Finns hit their peak at a much younger age. Also why is it you have to wait until 25 to be elite when other countries have elite players u23?

You don't have to wait but you can't judge earlier really, depending on the situation. Usually finns seriously lack muscle at younger age, they add like 20kg after they jump to NA. Physical training is probably weakness of the system (so far has been).
 

wings5

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You don't have to wait but you can't judge earlier really, depending on the situation. Usually finns seriously lack muscle at younger age, they add like 20kg after they jump to NA. Physical training is probably weakness of the system (so far has been).

That is a ridiculous amount of weight, I haven't seen any Finnish players gain that much, and that is strange because most of the hockey world is well versed with physical training programs, so you feel this is limiting the skating ability?
 

Selannne

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Mar 9, 2015
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I get both your points and Selanne's and I feel in 10 years Finland might be at Swedens level in terms of star players. In juniors they already achieve good results against them but they also usually employ solid team tactics to win. The point I don't agree with is the players you are saying are past their primes. You have Filppula who as been a 60 + point player and is 30, Koivu who has been 60-70 point player who is 32 both of whom have regressed, if you compare them to Zetterberg and Sedins, while they are and have always been superior players their play has not tailed off and their PPG is still pretty consistent with career averages despite being in their mid 30s same with Sundin and Alfredsson in thier playing careers. Why would the Finns hit their peak at a much younger age. Also why is it you have to wait until 25 to be elite when other countries have elite players u23?

Here is ONE who understand me. I Totally agree on this! When team Finland wins something,they wins it by a solid tactic,they play good defence,they play like a TEAM,and of course,good goaltending. They don´t have any individual skills in the offensive zone, like the canadians,russians,swedes...and they play a pretty boring hockey if you asking me. everybody sees it if you open your eyes

okey,okey,the Ristolainen´s OT goal was individual skill...but I mean the Swedes had like 50 good scoring chances that game.
 
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FiLe

Mr. Know-It-Nothing
Oct 9, 2009
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Here is ONE who understand me. I Totally agree on this! When team Finland wins something,they wins it by a solid tactic,they play good defence,they play like a TEAM,and of course,good goaltending. They don´t have any individual skills in the offensive zone, like the canadians,russians,swedes...and they play a pretty boring hockey if you asking me. everybody sees it if you open your eyes
You're not telling anybody anything they don't already know. Which might be why the rest of us are giving you such cold treatment. You behave like some grand prophet, telling us to "open our eyes" - when all you're spouting is very common knowledge, thankyouweddymuch. If you're done, Dr. Watson would like to use the facilities now.

Also, there will always be people willing to watch Team Finland play, "boring" hockey or no. It's their country, right or wrong.

I can however consent that I wouldn't mind seeing Finns with more offensive skill. The fact that our guys have won only two major tournament titles barely 20 years apart should tell us everything about the general effectiveness of that brand of hockey, especially if the aim is to have a big party at the Helsinki Market Square slightly more often.

Of course, next you're saying that the topic is important because we need to discuss what needs to be done after the fact. However, for that I'm going to say... for the umpteenth time... they've already put the fix in place. You'll just have to wait for a little while longer to see its full effects.
 

Selannne

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Mar 9, 2015
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Filppula can actually be excused because of said stars. Yes, he's surrounded by them - but does not actually regularly play in a same unit with them. Stamkos, Callahan, Drouin and co are all on a different line. So Flip's support scoring - and yet will very likely hit the 50-point mark before the season winds down. That's actually pretty good, considering.

Koivu and Jokinen have had bigger roles in their respective teams, so they can't be excused by that, but until very lately, their teams have pretty much sucked as a whole. The Wild has only guy - Parise - who has barely cleared that 50-point-mark (does that make him mediocre?) and the best scorer in the Panthers, Bjugstad, only has just cleared 40. Jokinen's their third best regardless, with 6+31.

And no, they aren't age-old, but like QnebO pointed out, they have never really been major impact players in the first place. The ones that have or will be are either winding down already or still coming.

What exactly is the point of this thread, if I may ask? To complain about the present? Because that is a pointless exercise, no wailing and pouting is gonna make the immediate situation any better. And you've already been told that the future will be better, by essentially every other poster visiting this thread. Yet you keep droning on how no one is good noooooow...

well,the finns are overall pretty good at defence. But their offensive game/goal scoring in Nhl is as said,not good. has it been this bad in the last 20 years? Vatanen is best goal scorer with 12..! goals.

in this lovely thread we can discuss the finns in NHL...why they can`t score,why their point totals drop of in an early age...
 

FiLe

Mr. Know-It-Nothing
Oct 9, 2009
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1,260
in this lovely thread we can discuss the finns in NHL...why they can`t score,why their point totals drop of in an early age...
Yeah. Some of us have been discussing that for the past 20 years or so. And you aren't bringing anything new to that discussion.

Did I already mention that Finns are expected to get better at it soon, by the way?
 

Selannne

Registered User
Mar 9, 2015
137
0
You're not telling anybody anything they don't already know. Which might be why the rest of us are giving you such cold treatment. You behave like some grand prophet, telling us to "open our eyes" - when all you're spouting is very common knowledge, thankyouweddymuch. If you're done, Dr. Watson would like to use the facilities now.

Also, there will always be people willing to watch Team Finland play, "boring" hockey or no. It's their country, right or wrong.

I can however consent that I wouldn't mind seeing Finns with more offensive skill. The fact that our guys have won only two major tournament titles barely 20 years apart should tell us everything about the general effectiveness of that brand of hockey, especially if the aim is to have a big party at the Helsinki Market Square slightly more often.

Of course, next you're saying that the topic is important because we need to discuss what needs to be done after the fact. However, for that I'm going to say... for the umpteenth time... they've already put the fix in place. You'll just have to wait for a little while longer to see its full effects.

well,you don`t need to read this thread or write here...just go to another thread

but before you go you should answer wings5 questions...you that knows everything about everything ;)
 
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QnebO

Wheel, snipe, celly
Feb 11, 2010
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I agree that we all know the scoring problem of Finns. There simply cannot be anyone who hasn't thought about it.

We all also know that last 5 years, much better individual talent has been starting to be produced - due to change of the junior system from kaikki pelaa to the current.
 
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