Post-Game Talk: MDSF #2 - 04/20/14 | Philadelphia Flyers @ New York Rangers - PART II

[chosen]

Richter, your post is well-presented, but I disagree with its premise. Most of the goalies on your list are not especially good except for the bottom three.

The others were passengers more than drivers. Look at the personnel of those winners and compare it to the Rangers. At forward especially, the Rangers are very inferior.

These goalies if truly good would show more consistency over their careers. They win when they have the best personnel, for the most part. Health also plays a large role in some cases.

Since I assume you are a Richter fan, I wonder if that plays into your opinion. Without Leetch, Messer, Kovalev, Graves etc., Richter would have no Cups. Would that make him a worse goalie?

 

[chosen]

The reason why people defend Lundqvist so much is plain as day in this thread. Gives an excuse as to people to bash the rest of the team.

You win the most ironic post.

Nobody here bashes any Ranger more than you bash Lundqvist.

 

[SnowblindNYR]

You win the most ironic post.

Nobody here bashes any Ranger more than you bash Lundqvist.

I bash him when he deserves to be bashed and I praise him plenty when he plays well. I just actually have standard for the supposed best goalie in the league.

 

[BarbaraAlphanse]

I really want Nash to be separated from MSL.

I was adamant that part of what made this team so successful offensively was their balance. Creating a super line means our 3rd line is completely lop sided. Hagelin and Richards are a terrible combination together.

Philly's defense was in part so effective because they were able to shut down our first line. Brassard's line was in a funk, and as opposed to the regular season, we couldn't roll out a 3rd line consistently and hope that they could score the goal we needed.

Put Hagelin on the 1st line. Nash will control the puck more, and become more involved. Moving MSL away from Nash also means that one of our stars has a mismatch with defense at all times. Either MSL gets a worse defensive pairing, or Nash does.

AV, while really creating some solid lines, has also created a bunch of idiotic ones.

Kreider can't get back soon enough.

 

[Wolfy*]

Haha...is it Simmonds who got leveled there?

Anyway, it's a long time since Zuccarello buried the lack of size question.

 

[BarbaraAlphanse]

Re: Hank discussion.

He has some ridiculously good games. But he tends to fall in the trap that the rest of the team falls into when we don't have our backs against the wall. His focus, which is better than 95% of the team in these games, slips from time to time, and he lets in some really soft goals.

If Hank saves that Voracek goal, we could all be singing a different tune today. He wasn't prepared for that goal. Common theme of the team though. When they have breathing room, they coast. Hank tends to come out in full force when the Rangers need him most.

Consistency. You ask that of all players. Hank is great, and puts up great numbers, but he's not the best advocate for consistency on the team.

Then again, it's hard to be consistently close to perfect. Every goalie has some bad goals. Again, they stem from poor focus at a given time. It happens.

 

[Bleed Ranger Blue]

Re: Hank discussion.

He has some ridiculously good games. But he tends to fall in the trap that the rest of the team falls into when we don't have our backs against the wall. His focus, which is better than 95% of the team in these games, slips from time to time, and he lets in some really soft goals.

If Hank saves that Voracek goal, we could all be singing a different tune today. He wasn't prepared for that goal. Common theme of the team though. When they have breathing room, they coast. Hank tends to come out in full force when the Rangers need him most.

Consistency. You ask that of all players. Hank is great, and puts up great numbers, but he's not the best advocate for consistency on the team.

Then again, it's hard to be consistently close to perfect. Every goalie has some bad goals. Again, they stem from poor focus at a given time. It happens.

I'd love to hear who is.

 

[BarbaraAlphanse]

I'd love to hear who is.

That's the point. Callahan used to be. Not this year. I'd argue MSL, in terms of effort and approach.

It's a mentality. Never let up. No one shows it to this team.

7 consecutive game 2 losses? That's a pretty telling statistic about team mentality.

 

[Bleed Ranger Blue]

That's the point. Callahan used to be. Not this year. I'd argue MSL, in terms of effort and approach.

It's a mentality. Never let up. No one shows it to this team.

7 consecutive game 2 losses? That's a pretty telling statistic about team mentality.

I agree with the sentiment, but not when it comes to goaltending. In other words, I don't think "trying harder" leads to a better goaltending performance. Its also funny how this psychiatric mumbo-jumbo seems to always surface after a loss. Curious to see if you thought Lundqvist and the team lacked focus and desire 10 minutes into the game.

 

[Richter Scale]

Richter, your post is well-presented, but I disagree with its premise. Most of the goalies on your list are not especially good except for the bottom three.

Over the course of their entire career? Sure, I agree with you. In the particular playoffs in which their team won a Cup? There I would disagree. Most of those goalies played very well for the duration of those playoffs (as I said, with the exception of Chi and Pitt).

The others were passengers more than drivers.

Absent MAF and Niemi, we'll agree to disagree on this one. IMO most of the rest of those goalies played extremely well for the playoff runs that ultimately got them a cup. [Edit: Though as an aside, even MAF had one of his better (still not great, but better) playoffs that year (and the year before when they lost to Detroit in the Finals).]

Look at the personnel of those winners and compare it to the Rangers. At forward especially, the Rangers are very inferior.

It is a perfectly valid argument to say that the Rangers need to build a better team for them and Lundqvist to win. And I agree with it. Where I diverge is from absolving Hank completely - and I think if the team is going to win, he needs to be more consistent in the playoffs. I certainly agree that the Rangers - as currently constructed - are probably not going to match up personnel-wise with the Pens and Hawks (and probably the Bruins). So they can't get away with having a goaltender who has any sort of consistency problems in the playoffs.

I tried to do a bit of analysis of this issue during last year's playoffs - which I re-posted recently. There is no clear cut conclusion from what I found, and it could be interpreted in a number of different ways depending on your predisposition. But I came away from it feeling as though both goal support/team support and Hank's inconsistency in the playoffs were a part of the problem. Not either one alone.

You can find that here if it interests you: http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showthread.php?p=83435643&highlight=#post83435643

These goalies if truly good would show more consistency over their careers. They win when they have the best personnel, for the most part. Health also plays a large role in some cases.

Sure, I agree. Though I don't think I was arguing this point.

Since I assume you are a Richter fan, I wonder if that plays into your opinion. Without Leetch, Messer, Kovalev, Graves etc., Richter would have no Cups. Would that make him a worse goalie?

I am indeed a big fan of Richter's. And no, I don't think he would have won a cup without those players. But those players also don't win a cup without him coming up big and having a career performance in that particular playoff year. He had some stinkers in those playoffs - there is no doubt. But also spread them out over the playoff series and didn't clump more than a handful in one series. Not to mention that there were plenty of years in which the Rangers had those personnel and didn't win - and a big part of the reason for their losses in those years was Richter's play.


I guess the point I'm mostly trying to make is that while goaltending isn't generally going to singlehandedly win a team a cup; unless you have a team like Chicago/Pittsburgh (and maybe Boston - but they have the goalie too), you won't win a cup without your goaltender elevating their play, and doing so with some degree of consistency.

 

[True Blue]

I am qualified. Just got certified last week.

Did you not say that St. Louis needs to produce immediately because this is a WIN NOW trade?

Your qualifications are faulty. I did say that St. Louis needed to produce immediately, given the price paid. I stand by that. I also still view that if the trade does not net a Cup, that it is a failure. I stand by both comments.

 

[True Blue]

Odd that Henke seems to be taking it on the chin around here, but Nash is mostly clear of criticism.

 

[Richter Scale]

Odd that Henke seems to be taking it on the chin around here, but Nash is mostly clear of criticism.

During the games while yelling at my TV, Nash, Step, MSL, Richie, McDonagh, and Girardi get as much - if not more - of my focus than Hank ever does. I don't typically find it interesting though to discuss it here, as it doesn't often lead to any sort of thoughtful debate.

 

[Hi ImHFNYR]

I bash him when he deserves to be bashed and I praise him plenty when he plays well. I just actually have standard for the supposed best goalie in the league.

If this was correct people wouldn't argue with you.

 

[True Blue]

I don't typically find it interesting though to discuss it here, as it doesn't often lead to any sort of thoughtful debate.

I think that, especially when it comes to Nash, there are things to point out. The inability to score big goals in the playoffs is a failure. The seeming determination to play only on the outside is a hinderance. He has the size and speed to break the trap that the Flyers are setting on their defensive line But he does not and does not seem willing to make efforts there.

Not that Nash's effort was any less of the others, but he was brought here to be a crown jewel and help the team score goals in playoffs.

 

[Synergy27]

For what it's worth, the Voracek goal was crazy lucky. Very fortuitous bounce after McD got a good poke on the puck and then it just happened to slide through/under Henrik's butt end. Good power going to the net but a very lucky goal in the end. Really big one too.

 

[SnowblindNYR]

If this was correct people wouldn't argue with you.

It's 100% correct but you choose to gloss over it.

 

[Hi ImHFNYR]

I think that, especially when it comes to Nash, there are things to point out. The inability to score big goals in the playoffs is a failure. The seeming determination to play only on the outside is a hinderance. He has the size and speed to break the trap that the Flyers are setting on their defensive line But he does not and does not seem willing to make efforts there.

Not that Nash's effort was any less of the others, but he was brought here to be a crown jewel and help the team score goals in playoffs.

This isn't an indictment of what you're writing but he's right there just isn't much to discuss there. I always think back to a game where Gomez and Dawes scored. Duguay gets on and his tidbit is "Gomez and Dawes had real good periods". It's like thanks Ron the two guys who scored had good periods, great insight. Until nash scores a bunch there really isn't much that can be said other than "he hasn't produced" because that is all that really needs to be said. Makes it boring to discuss.

Unfortunately people should be thinking that way when it comes to Lundqvist because most of them are out to lunch. One side points to SV% as if that's the be all, end all defense for him while the other points to the lack of a cup as if that's the be all, end all against him.

 

[Jersey Girl]

For what it's worth, the Voracek goal was crazy lucky. Very fortuitous bounce after McD got a good poke on the puck and then it just happened to slide through/under Henrik's butt end. Good power going to the net but a very lucky goal in the end. Really big one too.

I don't know...I find it hard to call any goal where the forward went around Ryan McDonagh a 'lucky' goal. Sure the puck might have bounced the right way for him, but that was also a factor of Voracek's speed and perseverance. Pouliot shanked his shot, but the puck still went in the net and nobody is calling it crazy lucky.

 

[Hi ImHFNYR]

I don't know...I find it hard to call any goal where the forward went around Ryan McDonagh a 'lucky' goal. Sure the puck might have bounced the right way for him, but that was also a factor of Voracek's speed and perseverance. Pouliot shanked his shot, but the puck still went in the net and nobody is calling it crazy lucky.

Definitely not lucky. he took advantage first of McD being flat footed, then Girardi being indecisive and then Hank being unsure about when to poke, when to move laterally and when the puck was to be shot. All three guys imploded around him and JV took advantage. I wouldn't call it luck I just call it three pro's screwing the pooch. Luck would be the puck hitting an odd divot in the ice and barely bouncing out of McD's reach and into the net or a puck taking a weird bounce off the glass, off the back of the goalie and in.

 

[BarbaraAlphanse]

I agree with the sentiment, but not when it comes to goaltending. In other words, I don't think "trying harder" leads to a better goaltending performance. Its also funny how this psychiatric mumbo-jumbo seems to always surface after a loss. Curious to see if you thought Lundqvist and the team lacked focus and desire 10 minutes into the game.

They were a bit sloppy when they came out, yes.

Also, I don't recall saying anything about lack of desire or needing to try harder. Mental preparedness is essential and different from both of those.

Every player should be held accountable for how prepared they are to play a game. Hank letting up softies? It's sure as hell not an indictment on his talent or regular level of play. It's focus.

 

[nyrleetch]

That's the point. Callahan used to be. Not this year. I'd argue MSL, in terms of effort and approach.

It's a mentality. Never let up. No one shows it to this team.

7 consecutive game 2 losses? That's a pretty telling statistic about team mentality.

Callahan? This the same guy who disappeared every postseason? Are we arguing just regular season. Because Lundqvist probably wins for both in terms of most consistent. McDonagh could surpass him soon.

 

[haveandare]

I bash him when he deserves to be bashed and I praise him plenty when he plays well. I just actually have standard for the supposed best goalie in the league.

You beat him over the head with a brick when he deserves a stern talking to, so to speak.

People can do/say what they want within the bounds of the rules, I'm fine with that although it frustrated me from time to time, but let's not pretend that the hyperbole train doesn't leave the station for numerous people whenever Hank lets in more than 2 goals.

 

[NYRSchrute217]

I really want Nash to be separated from MSL.

I was adamant that part of what made this team so successful offensively was their balance. Creating a super line means our 3rd line is completely lop sided. Hagelin and Richards are a terrible combination together.

Philly's defense was in part so effective because they were able to shut down our first line. Brassard's line was in a funk, and as opposed to the regular season, we couldn't roll out a 3rd line consistently and hope that they could score the goal we needed.

Put Hagelin on the 1st line. Nash will control the puck more, and become more involved. Moving MSL away from Nash also means that one of our stars has a mismatch with defense at all times. Either MSL gets a worse defensive pairing, or Nash does.

AV, while really creating some solid lines, has also created a bunch of idiotic ones.

Kreider can't get back soon enough.

Hagelin-Richards-Nash
Miller/Fast-Stepan-MSL

I'd be willing to try that. Stepan and MSL seem to have some chemistry.

 

[LeetchisGod]

The biggest problem on this team is that we don't shoot the puck well enough. How often does even Nash, our best goal scorer, beat goalies with his shot? Kreider probably has the best wrist shot on the team.