Mcdavids or Crosby, first 3 seasons

[Plural]

It's hard to say. I think Gretzky was still better in 87/88, he lead the league in ppg but missed time. Lemieux was clearly better offensively by 88/89 but lacked playoff experience. In retrospect Lemieux had likely overtaken Gretzky at that point, but i wouldn't blame anyone for picking Gretzky since he was coming off a decade of pure dominance.

That's fair enough really. At this point there's sort of similar arguments going on with McDavid vs. Crosby. Although I'd argue that the gap between Sid and McDavid is bigger than it was between Gretzky and Lemieux back in 87-89.

As far as the better first three years is, it's almost a coin toss. If one values RS heavily then it's fair to go with McDavid. If playoffs are essential part of the evaluation kind of have to go with Sid (who had marvelous playoffs but ultimately lost in the SCF).

So in short, it's almost completely a matter of preference. RS numbers do favor McDavid but Crosby's playoffs push him over McDavid. Pick your poison I guess?

 

[Luigi Lemieux]

No he was not

Good argument. By the beginning of the 88/89 season he clearly was. He started that season with 104 points in 40 games and ended with 199.

 

[Help]

Era-adjusted points per game, if anyone is interested

	Crosby	McDavid
Season 1	1.22	1.20
Season 2	1.54	1.34
Season 3	1.47	1.44

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

 

[VainGretzky]

That's not a great argument, because one of them had to compete with Ovechkin, and the other didn't.

From an offensive standpoint, Ovechkin is probably a top 20 forward all-time, and as a goal scorer he's easily top 3. Although I think Crosby has been better through the majority of their careers, the separation between him and Ovechkin at a young age was minimal and could have been argued either way much of the time.

But but McDavid had to compete against Crosby lol come on

 

[SmellOfVictory]

But but McDavid had to compete against Crosby lol come on

Sure, and Crosby is 30, which is historically when the production of most forwards begins to drop (really it's more like late 20s). From an offensive standpoint, the production of forwards in the NHL, especially elite ones, tends to peak in their early 20s (I believe it's around 22-23) and plateaus until they hit their late 20s - around 27-28. Then, with some exceptions, it generally declines. Sometimes the decline is gradual, sometimes it's rapid, but that's the general rule of thumb.

Edit: Just to be clear, I'm not saying one player is unquestionably better than the other at the same age. I'm just saying that the "McDavid has two Art Rosses already" isn't a complete argument for claiming that his first three seasons were better than Crosby's were.

 

[GreeningOil]

I don’t believe that at all, please point out to me the last time the best player in the world not only missed the playoffs, but missed by a very significant margin. Either something absolutely unheard of is happening, or mcdavid isn’t the best in the world. I’m putting my money on the latter

So.... one player makes a team? Switch Crosby with McDavid and Edmonton is still bottom 5

 

[Beukeboom]

A lot of people are too young to remember, but Lemieux was heavily criticized for just being a lazy point producer until 1991. Even though he was clearly a better offensive player than Gretzky by 1988, people did not acknowledge the torch had been passed until spring 1991 when Lemieux had an all time great playoff performance and conn smythe.

OT, but no he really wasn't. 87-88 Gretz had a higher ppg. 88-89 Lemieux definately. 89-90 it was pretty even, 90-91 Gretzky had a much higher ppg. 91-92 was the season from which Lemieux took the lead. Although to be fair 1993-94 their ppg was again identical. I'm still willing to give it to Mario from 1991-92.

On topic; If McDavid gets 2 Arts within his first 3 seasons then the answer must be him. Definately.

 

[authentic]

Crosby:

Point finishes - 6, 1, 31
Points per game - 7, 1, 2
Combined - 3rd in points and 1st in points per game (.01 over 2nd, Thornton)

McDavid:

Point finishes - 109, 1, 1
Points per game - 4, 1, 3 (could be 1 by seasons end)
Combined - 3rd in points 1st in points per game (.07 over 2nd, Malkin)

Looks to me like the slight edge goes to McDavid here.

 

[VainGretzky]

Era-adjusted points per game, if anyone is interested

	Crosby	McDavid
Season 1	1.22	1.20
Season 2	1.54	1.34
Season 3	1.47	1.44

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

That does not take into account pp oppurtunities in which Penguins had double the amount Oilers had in McDavids 3 years , that is based soley on league gpg which is flawed if you take mcdavids production on the pp and equate it to What the pens had McDavid woul have 85 more points for those 3 seasons

 

[authentic]

I would love to see someone who voted Crosby challenge my above post, especially considering McDavid will now have 2 scoring titles in his time, as many as Crosby has had in his career.

 

[Luigi Lemieux]

OT, but no he really wasn't. 87-88 Gretz had a higher ppg. 88-89 Lemieux definately. 89-90 it was pretty even, 90-91 Gretzky had a much higher ppg. 91-92 was the season from which Lemieux took the lead. Although to be fair 1993-94 their ppg was again identical. I'm still willing to give it to Mario from 1991-92.

On topic; If McDavid gets 2 Arts within his first 3 seasons then the answer must be him. Definately.

90-91 and 93-94 were injury plagued years for Lemieux. From what i saw Lemieux was clearly better offensively by the start of 88-89. Whenever he was healthy he was better.

 

[Dominance]

Why are there so many acidic comments in this thread?

Me, I love the whole concept that McDavid may be better than Crosby, who I have been a huge fan of throughout his junior and NHL career - he is the sole reason why I have been a massive Penguins fan since 2005. Realistically, I doubt that McDavid finishes his career with more impressive offensive stats (his current career PPG is still lower than Crosby’s, excuses aside) or playoff success than Sid, the two main factors on which players are judged, so I doubt that he will be considered his equal or superior in 30 years. This doesn’t stop me from hoping for McDavid to hit 200 points and win every single trophy for the next two decades. I believe, probably foolishly, that Crosby will finish his career a top-5 player of all time; see my username. It would do nothing but bring me joy to see McDavid go a step further and supplant one or more members of hockey’s seemingly untouchable legends (99, 66, 4, and 9).

 

[authentic]

Why are there so many acidic comments in this thread?

Me, I love the whole concept that McDavid may be better than Crosby, who I have been a huge fan of throughout his junior and NHL career - he is the sole reason why I have been a massive Penguins fan since 2005. Realistically, I doubt that McDavid finishes his career with more impressive offensive stats (his current career PPG is still lower than Crosby’s, excuses aside) or playoff success than Sid, the two main factors on which players are judged, so I doubt that he will be considered his equal or superior in 30 years. This doesn’t stop me from hoping for McDavid to hit 200 points and win every single trophy for the next two decades. I believe, probably foolishly, that Crosby will finish his career a top-5 player of all time; see my username. It would do nothing but bring me joy to see McDavid go a step further and supplant one or more members of hockey’s seemingly untouchable legends (99, 66, 4, and 9).

Excuses? He has entered the league at a much harder time to score. McDavid is 3rd in points in his first 3 seasons combined compared to Crosby's 16th despite playing more games.

 

[bathdog]

Meant overall not just reg season, I think the fact that mcd won’t even make it speaks volumes imo

Terrible argument.

I would love to see someone who voted Crosby challenge my above post, especially considering McDavid will now have 2 scoring titles in his time, as many as Crosby has had in his career.

It's getting increasingly hard, maybe with great emphasis on playoffs, but Crosby wasn't too effective come SCF time. Another similar display like this by McDavid, and there won't be a good argument next year.

 

[Dominance]

Excuses? He has entered the league at a much harder time to score. McDavid is 3rd in points in his first 3 seasons combined compared to Crosby's 16th despite playing more games.

I predict that that won’t matter 30 years from now, even though I admit that it should.

Also, how do you read my post and still get triggered by that miniscule part of it? Some people are just rabid.

 

[authentic]

OT, but no he really wasn't. 87-88 Gretz had a higher ppg. 88-89 Lemieux definately. 89-90 it was pretty even, 90-91 Gretzky had a much higher ppg. 91-92 was the season from which Lemieux took the lead. Although to be fair 1993-94 their ppg was again identical. I'm still willing to give it to Mario from 1991-92.

On topic; If McDavid gets 2 Arts within his first 3 seasons then the answer must be him. Definately.

Completely ignoring the back issues Lemieux was dealing with which is why he was missing so many games. Once Gretzky dealt with a bad back after 1991 his offense dropped by a huge margin for the rest of his career.

 

[mouz135]

Well he’s also better defensively, and in terms of their defensive play in their first few years McDavid is definitely ahead in that regard.

For a such a defensive player, he sure was horrifyingly horrendous last night in the defensive zone. He seemed to be cheating more for offense than anything, and he was bleeding goals against. I believe 3 even strength if I'm not mistaken? Your oiler friends have also mentioned such observations in the PGT thread. His offense game is on point, but his defensive side leaves much to be desired. And please don't link me +-, such a useless stat

Edit: Here we go:

McD was on the ice for 4 EVGA and he gets a 6? His game overall was brutal and was cheating up constantly in the game. Would be one of his worst games of the season overall and if your captain is on ice for 3GA in one period you're losing period

Player grades: McDavid strikes early & often before Oilers come apart at the seams

I've also paid attention that sometimes McDavid is more or less bad defensively, despite creating a lot offensively. Maybe at this stage he allows himself a bit more freedom to concentrate on the offensive side. He also knows the fans and the coaches forgive him, which is not the same with other players.

I know it's a risk to say anything negative about McD here, but wanted to get that out as there's no question he's offensively as good as it gets. Can't say much about this previous game, though, but according to what I read you're probably right with him.

 

[authentic]

Terrible argument.



It's getting increasingly hard, maybe with great emphasis on playoffs, but Crosby wasn't too effective come SCF time. Another similar display like this by McDavid, and there won't be a good argument next year.

The team argument is and always has been crap. It can be used as a tiebreaker if there is no clear winner, but it looks to me like McDavid is the clear winner here.

 

[Nadal On Clay]

If the 1st season is easily Crosby due to McDavid missing games, the 3rd season should also be easily McDavid

Both were roughly as good in each season, with McDavid missing a big chunk of his first season, and Crosby missing a big chunk of his 3rd. Slight edge to McDavid for missing time in his worst season though. Biggest difference is the playoffs where Crosby went to the finals and tied for the playoff lead in points.

Crosby got 72 in 53 in 08 with like 26-27 pts in the playoffs, so no, it’s not McDavid easily

 

[daver]

Crosby's playoff resume after three years tips the scales.

 

[Regal]

Crosby got 72 in 53 in 08 with like 26-27 pts in the playoffs, so no, it’s not McDavid easily

If we count playoffs then yea. But 72 in 53 isn't any better than McDavid's pace

 

[Nathaniel Skywalker]

Crosby in his third season was leading the scoring race before getting hurt. Returned and led his team to the finals while leading the playoffs in scoring. All this at 20. Crosby>McDavid. 21 year old Crosby also scored 31 points in the playoffs while 21 year old McDavid will miss the playoffs.

 

[Ovechclutch]

Crosby even strength 1st 3 season

213 gp 156 pts


McDavid 1st 3 seasons
204 gp 185 pt

PP oppurtunities 1st 3 seasons Penguins 1336 Oilers 678

McDavid AINEC

How can you argue against this?

 

[daver]

Crosbt gets the edge after one year mainly due to playing way more games, increases that edge slightly after two years, McDavid has the edge this year mainly due to playing way more games but not enough to close the gap entirely in their regular season resumes and Crosby has an impressive playoff resume after three years.

 

[daver]

Crosby even strength 1st 3 season

213 gp 156 pts


McDavid 1st 3 seasons
204 gp 185 pt

PP oppurtunities 1st 3 seasons Penguins 1336 Oilers 678

McDavid AINEC

Does this include a breakdown of their ES vs. PP points in the playoffs?