Mcdavids or Crosby, first 3 seasons

[zharkenby]

Whose first three first seasons were more impressive? For me even though I hate him, it’s still Crosby AINEC. You can’t be the best player in the world and miss the playoffs. I don’t think it’s ever happened.

Click to read more...

 

[Nadal On Clay]

1st season: Easily Crosby
2nd season: Crosby
3rd season: McDavid

 

[Regal]

1st season: Easily Crosby
2nd season: Crosby
3rd season: McDavid

If the 1st season is easily Crosby due to McDavid missing games, the 3rd season should also be easily McDavid

Both were roughly as good in each season, with McDavid missing a big chunk of his first season, and Crosby missing a big chunk of his 3rd. Slight edge to McDavid for missing time in his worst season though. Biggest difference is the playoffs where Crosby went to the finals and tied for the playoff lead in points.

 

[Plural]

1st season: Easily Crosby
2nd season: Crosby
3rd season: McDavid

Does the games missed argument only work for Sid? Come on, show some objectivity FFS.

 

[Plural]

Whose first three first seasons were more impressive? For me even though I hate him, it’s still Crosby AINEC. You can’t be the best player in the world and miss the playoffs. I don’t think it’s ever happened.

It's rare but it has happened.

 

[snipes]

Back to back Art Rosses in the two full seasons McDavid, he’ll have as many Art Rosses at 21 as Crosby has had his entire career.

 

[Empoleon8771]

First season: Crosby clearly due to McDavid getting hurt
Third season: McDavid clearly due to Crosby getting hurt

I think you can argue that these come close to cancelling each other out, although I'd listen to an argument that Crosby's 2005-2006 and 2007-2008 was better than McDavid's 2015-2016 and 2017-2018 based on overall production. That leaves their 2nd years, where both won the Art Ross. We've already had this debate a ton, and I believe that Crosby's 2006-2007 beat McDavid's 2016-2017 in a lot of polls that were made last offseason. That gives Crosby the advantage here.

 

[oXo Cube]

Year 1: Crosby, and FWIW I think it likely would be Crosby even without the broken collarbone
Year 2: tie
Year 3: McDavid

Overall: depends on how this season ends. 2 Art Ross trophies in a row would tip it in favour of McDavid, but he hasn't won it yet.

 

[zharkenby]

Back to back Art Rosses in the two full seasons McDavid, he’ll have as many Art Rosses at 21 as Crosby has had his entire career.

Was waiting for this, at some point you have to acknowledge that the “best player” argument isn’t all about points.

 

[Plural]

First season: Crosby clearly due to McDavid getting hurt
Third season: McDavid clearly due to Crosby getting hurt

I think you can argue that these come close to cancelling each other out, although I'd listen to an argument that Crosby's 2005-2006 and 2007-2008 was better than McDavid's 2015-2016 and 2017-2018 based on overall production. That leaves their 2nd years, where both won the Art Ross. We've already had this debate a ton, and I believe that Crosby's 2006-2007 beat McDavid's 2016-2017 in a lot of polls that were made last offseason. That gives Crosby the advantage here.

I don't think their rookie years cancel their thirds years. We're talking about significantly higher level of play in third season compared to first season. If anything, the edge needs to be in favor of McDavid in that comparison. That leaves us with their sophomore season where Crosby, imo, has a small edge. Adding in his third year playoffs and it's a nice tie-breaker for Sid. But one could argue that the gap between their third season is larger than the gap between their sophomore season which balances the argument in favor of McDavid.

Rookie season comparison should be of the lowest importance, considering neither was the best player in the world that season.

 

[Trap Jesus]

The only season worth arguing is their 2nd season. Not really fair to compare either their rookie years or 3rd years due to injury. In the long-run, it's probably something that will help McDavid in the end as when looking back on their careers as a whole, it's more beneficial to miss time in your rookie year when you're still getting acclimated than it is your 3rd year after you just won all the major awards.

 

[snipes]

Was waiting for this, at some point you have to acknowledge that the “best player” argument isn’t all about points.

Well he’s also better defensively, and in terms of their defensive play in their first few years McDavid is definitely ahead in that regard.

 

[zharkenby]

Well he’s also better defensively, and in terms of their defensive play in their first few years McDavid is definitely ahead in that regard.

I don’t believe that at all, please point out to me the last time the best player in the world not only missed the playoffs, but missed by a very significant margin. Either something absolutely unheard of is happening, or mcdavid isn’t the best in the world. I’m putting my money on the latter

 

[Plural]

Purely in terms of scoring and PPG finishes, their first three years are projecting to be as follows (McDavid can still change mildly depending on the rest of the games):

Scoring finishes:
Crosby: 1st, 6th,
McDavid: 1st, 1st

PPG finishes:
Crosby: 1st, 2nd, 6th
McDavid: 1st, 3rd, 3rd

So far, the numbers seem to slightly favor McDavid. Depending on how one values playoffs it could go either way. But regular season exploits do favor McDavid, even if it's somewhat slightly.

 

[snipes]

I don’t believe that at all, please point out to me the last time the best player in the world not only missed the playoffs, but missed by a very significant margin. Either something absolutely unheard of is happening, or mcdavid isn’t the best in the world. I’m putting my money on the latter

Hockey is a team sport, look at Lemieux not making the playoffs his first 4 years when 16 of 21 teams made it.

Or another example in a different sport, look at Barry Sanders and the Detroit Lions in the 90s. One of the greatest RBs of all time and his teams were routinely garbage.

 

[oXo Cube]

I don’t believe that at all, please point out to me the last time the best player in the world not only missed the playoffs, but missed by a very significant margin. Either something absolutely unheard of is happening, or mcdavid isn’t the best in the world. I’m putting my money on the latter

Mario Lemieux not exist in your universe?

 

[VainGretzky]

Crosby even strength 1st 3 season

213 gp 156 pts


McDavid 1st 3 seasons
204 gp 185 pt

PP oppurtunities 1st 3 seasons Penguins 1336 Oilers 678

McDavid AINEC

 

[Luigi Lemieux]

Hockey is a team sport, look at Lemieux not making the playoffs his first 4 years when 16 of 21 teams made it.

Or another example in a different sport, look at Barry Sanders and the Detroit Lions in the 90s. One of the greatest RBs of all time and his teams were routinely garbage.

A lot of people are too young to remember, but Lemieux was heavily criticized for just being a lazy point producer until 1991. Even though he was clearly a better offensive player than Gretzky by 1988, people did not acknowledge the torch had been passed until spring 1991 when Lemieux had an all time great playoff performance and conn smythe.

 

[Plural]

A lot of people are too young to remember, but Lemieux was heavily criticized for just being a lazy point producer until 1991. Even though he was clearly a better offensive player than Gretzky by 1988, people did not acknowledge the torch had been passed until spring 1991 when Lemieux had an all time great playoff performance and conn smythe.

That's true. And even Gretzky had to wait until he was able to beat the Islanders. Doesn't mean those were correct sentiments. Or do you think Gretzky was better player than Lemieux in -87/-88 & -88/-89?

 

[Luigi Lemieux]

For the poll I'd say Mcdavid slightly in the regular season, but Crosby overall since he lead the playoffs in scoring in 2008.

 

[zharkenby]

Mario Lemieux not exist in your universe?

Wayne Gretzky > Mario Lemieux

 

[zharkenby]

For the poll I'd say Mcdavid slightly in the regular season, but Crosby overall since he lead the playoffs in scoring in 2008.

Meant overall not just reg season, I think the fact that mcd won’t even make it speaks volumes imo

 

[Luigi Lemieux]

That's true. And even Gretzky had to wait until he was able to beat the Islanders. Doesn't mean those were correct sentiments. Or do you think Gretzky was better player than Lemieux in -87/-88 & -88/-89?

It's hard to say. I think Gretzky was still better in 87/88, he lead the league in ppg but missed time. Lemieux was clearly better offensively by 88/89 but lacked playoff experience. In retrospect Lemieux had likely overtaken Gretzky at that point, but i wouldn't blame anyone for picking Gretzky since he was coming off a decade of pure dominance.

 

[VainGretzky]

A lot of people are too young to remember, but Lemieux was heavily criticized for just being a lazy point producer until 1991. Even though he was clearly a better offensive player than Gretzky by 1988, people did not acknowledge the torch had been passed until spring 1991 when Lemieux had an all time great playoff performance and conn smythe.

No he was not

 

[SmellOfVictory]

Back to back Art Rosses in the two full seasons McDavid, he’ll have as many Art Rosses at 21 as Crosby has had his entire career.

That's not a great argument, because one of them had to compete with Ovechkin, and the other didn't.

From an offensive standpoint, Ovechkin is probably a top 20 forward all-time, and as a goal scorer he's easily top 3. Although I think Crosby has been better through the majority of their careers, the separation between him and Ovechkin at a young age was minimal and could have been argued either way much of the time.