McCann vs Virtanen

[Reverend Mayhem]

I think we need to remind ourselves that we were complaining about Bo Horvat's minutes as well, last year.

I thought we still were...

 

[TheWanderer]

I thought we still were...

You know what I mean, though, yeah? The minutes aren't the be-all-end-all of how Willie sees a player. Unfortunately we've been playing really tight games lately.

 

[WTG]

I chose keep them both. Let me explain why.

Next year we will have Shinkaruk and Gaunce make the team unless one/both fall off a cliff I do not see how they don't make it. On the back end Pedan will probably make the lineup next season.

If you send McCann or Virtanen down they will probably make the team next year. We can't afford to have all of: McCann, Virtanen, Shinkaruk, Gaunce, Pedan too make the team all at once. That is too much inexperience. That is why I think McCann and Virtanen both make the team. We cannot go into a season with 5 fresh rookies. This is also why we waived Corrado, because management wasn't about to let both Hutton, and Corrado make the team.

Just my opinion. Keep em both so when the next wave of rookies come in you at least have some NHL experience on the previous wave.

 

[corona]

Sedin - Sedin - Burrows
Higgins - Sutter - Vrbata
Dorsett - Horvat - Hansen
Cracknell - McCann - Prust

I agree with this line up 100%. Plus if Kenins is playing well, at some point in the season we could re-unite him with Horvat/Hansen and put Dorsett on the 4th line.

I'd vote to keep McCann only. He thinks the game at NHL speed and is a threat in the o-zone. Unfortunately Virtanen isn't quite there yet.

 

[F A N]

You know what I mean, though, yeah? The minutes aren't the be-all-end-all of how Willie sees a player. Unfortunately we've been playing really tight games lately.

Willie admitted it took a lot of convincing by Benning for Horvat to even make the team. When Vey was playing more minutes than Horvat, Willie did trust Vey more than Horvat.

 

[arsmaster*]

I think we need to remind ourselves that we were complaining about Bo Horvat's minutes as well, last year.

What's your point though?

Horvat was being held back early on and only got his chances when injuries to Richardson and Bonino struck.

Virtanen and McCann have already had that injury take place with Higgins and they're still marginally getting opportunities.

Since Sven likely gets claimed it makes more sense to give the teenagers their swan song in junior.

The 4th line is better with cracknell on it.

I mean it should be a no brainer to send JV back and McCann you can him and haw about but I don't think he'd hold up for a full pull in the show this year.

 

[Tiranis]

I just don't see the hesitation. They're not a big part of the team right now and I don't know a single prospect who was ruined by spending an extra year in junior, especially when they hadn't previously dominated it. If anything, an argument can be made the the 04-05 lockout was a contributing factor to so many 2003 picks turning out.

All we've heard for years from posters here is how the Detroit model is so amazing and how we should be more like them. Then they see the new shiny toy and suddenly have zero patience.

 

[Verviticus]

If you send McCann or Virtanen down they will probably make the team next year. We can't afford to have all of: McCann, Virtanen, Shinkaruk, Gaunce, Pedan too make the team all at once. That is too much inexperience.

its not really. if anything, it's cool as hell

it wont happen because we'll still have willie for our ****stain of a coach, but ****, have the entire bottom six be rookies, im ok with that

I just don't see the hesitation. They're not a big part of the team right now and I don't know a single prospect who was ruined by spending an extra year in junior, especially when they hadn't previously dominated it. If anything, an argument can be made the the 04-05 lockout was a contributing factor to so many 2003 picks turning out.

easier to cost control them in later years too!

 

[Shareefruck]

Hate the narrative that keeps getting spun about Horvat not being ready and basically being gifted the job early on. It's simply not true. He was NHL ready from the start, and he earned that spot as much as anyone else did.

Virtanen is not NHL ready, full-stop. Just because you have the physical attributes doesn't mean you're automatically ready for NHL play.

McCann is very very close, but it's borderline. He's close enough that you could make the argument that he should just stick around and work on getting better. I'm not sure sending him down to junior would help him at this point. He's got that game figured out completely.

I still think that Gaunce (and possibly Shinkaruk) is more NHL ready and deserving than either of them. Hell, I like them more than Baertschi too.

 

[CanaFan]

Hate the narrative that keeps getting spun about Horvat not being ready and basically being gifted the job early on. It's simply not true. He was NHL ready from the start, and he earned that spot as much as anyone else did.

Virtanen is not NHL ready, full-stop. Just because you have the physical attributes doesn't mean you're automatically ready for NHL play.

McCann is very very close, but it's borderline. He's close enough that you could make the argument that he should just stick around and work on getting better. I'm not sure sending him down to junior would help him at this point. He's got that game figured out completely.

I still think that Gaunce (and possibly Shinkaruk) is more NHL ready and deserving than either of them. Hell, I like them more than Baertschi too.

Ya he "earned it" but wasn't terribly effective up until January. His line was consistently outshot and often hemmed in. Yes a good portion of that falls on his wingers (esp Dorsett) but let's not pretend that November Bo looked anything like March Bo. He came a long way, esp after the injury to Richardson.

 

[F A N]

You have to consider the team's depth. Last year, Vey was obviously going to be given a chance. Other than that, Horvat was pencilled in. There was little "perceived" depth down at the farm. This year, Kennins, Vey, Gaunce, and Grenier are guys Benning would have no problems calling up.

I think the important question to ask is what would be the best lineup by the end of the year and what's best for a prospect's development? McCann is ready in a different way than Horvat was last season. Despite not having NHL strength and making rookie mistakes, McCann's speed and skill level allows him to move the puck. With increased strength and experience one can see that he will only get better. I don't see how by the end of the year he wouldn't be better than Cracknell and Vey. Right now, I can't convincingly say he's worse than those two guys so I say we keep him. As for Virtanen, he's physically ready. Unfortunately, he has simply not given enough time to determine whether he will hurt the team being out there. Like one poster suggested, do we want him to "Dorsett?" This is pretty much what Virtanen will look like. Given his inability to put up numbers in the WHL last season, I am not certain Virtanen's offensive game will come around at the NHL level this season. But should that be a problem? Pacioretty (who was older) wasn't all that productive in his first two seasons in the NHL or even the AHL for that matter. But with guys like Gaunce and Grenier down there, and Cracknell up here, I am not sure if Virtanen will be better than those guys this year.

As for Horvat. I remember him being solid. He didn't have the offensive forays McCann has had, but Horvat was solid defensively and was leading the team in faceoff percentage. Obviously, he was strong enough to play in the NHL. He was ready IMO.

 

[StrictlyCommercial]

I just don't see the hesitation. They're not a big part of the team right now and I don't know a single prospect who was ruined by spending an extra year in junior, especially when they hadn't previously dominated it. If anything, an argument can be made the the 04-05 lockout was a contributing factor to so many 2003 picks turning out.

All we've heard for years from posters here is how the Detroit model is so amazing and how we should be more like them. Then they see the new shiny toy and suddenly have zero patience.

Didn't most guys play in the AHL during that lockout?

 

[RandV]

Horvat was first noticeable last year in the faceoff circle.

He was injured in training camp so missed the start of the season, so our centers were Henrik, Bonino, Richardson, Vey, and they were getting killed in the faceoff circle. Bo steps in his first game and wins 67% of his draws, and through the first 10 games averaged close to 60%. While that rating would drop He immediately proved to be an asset to the team as a valued 4th line center that we actually needed. Where we fans started getting hyped and wanting to see more ice time is when somehow he managed to get stronger and faster as the season went on and started proving capable of providing the offense as well.

Right now Virtanen and McCann more or less earned their spots from pre-season, but they're much more replaceable in the lineup than Horvat was. Especially Virtanen.

 

[Tiranis]

Didn't most guys play in the AHL during that lockout?

Not really. Just like now, some were eligible to play there due to their birthday but lots weren't. Here's a sampling of guys who played junior: Weber, Getzlaf, Perry, Carter and Richards.

 

[F A N]

Right now Virtanen and McCann more or less earned their spots from pre-season, but they're much more replaceable in the lineup than Horvat was. Especially Virtanen.

I'm not sure if McCann is replaceable. Cracknell and Vey are the alternatives right now. McCann brings something that the two don't which is speed and skill. I am not saying that McCann is as good defensively as Cracknell but McCann can move the puck out of the zone better than Cracknell. I simply see McCann's faults as rookie mistakes and a lack of strength and he brings something to the table offensively that the team lacks.

I just don't see the hesitation. They're not a big part of the team right now and I don't know a single prospect who was ruined by spending an extra year in junior, especially when they hadn't previously dominated it. If anything, an argument can be made the the 04-05 lockout was a contributing factor to so many 2003 picks turning out.

All we've heard for years from posters here is how the Detroit model is so amazing and how we should be more like them. Then they see the new shiny toy and suddenly have zero patience.

I agree, but Horvat wasn't a big part of the team in the beginning either.

 

[Icebreakers]

Virtanen needs to be sent down, him playing 5 minutes last game was a disgrace. For his sake he needs to develop. Hes going to be compared to Ehlers and Nylander for a long time. He needs to gain some kind of confidence.

 

[RandV]

Not really. Just like now, some were eligible to play there due to their birthday but lots weren't. Here's a sampling of guys who played junior: Weber, Getzlaf, Perry, Carter and Richards.

Hard to say exactly how much of an impact the lockout had on the kids since there isn't really anything else comparable, but there were also a class of NHL rookies from 2003-04 that played in the AHL for 2004-05. Eric Staal maybe the best example, 31 points in 81 games for the Canes prior to the lockout, PPG on their farm team during it, and scored 100 points in the NHL coming out of it.

 

[RandV]

I'm not sure if McCann is replaceable. Cracknell and Vey are the alternatives right now. McCann brings something that the two don't which is speed and skill. I am not saying that McCann is as good defensively as Cracknell but McCann can move the puck out of the zone better than Cracknell. I simply see McCann's faults as rookie mistakes and a lack of strength and he brings something to the table offensively that the team lacks.

I said earlier in the thread that I'd prefer we kept McCann for injury depth. He provides a good offensive option at center with dependable wingers like Burrows & Hansen, but not really an ideal dependable 4th line center like Horvat was early for us last year.

McCann has been able to have an impact in the lineup early because we were doing that weird thing playing Sutter with the Sedins. Move Sutter back to center, and at full strength McCann is the one who gets bumped.

 

[Andy Dufresne]

I chose keep them both. Let me explain why.

Next year we will have Shinkaruk and Gaunce make the team unless one/both fall off a cliff I do not see how they don't make it. On the back end Pedan will probably make the lineup next season.

If you send McCann or Virtanen down they will probably make the team next year. We can't afford to have all of: McCann, Virtanen, Shinkaruk, Gaunce, Pedan too make the team all at once. That is too much inexperience. That is why I think McCann and Virtanen both make the team. We cannot go into a season with 5 fresh rookies. This is also why we waived Corrado, because management wasn't about to let both Hutton, and Corrado make the team.

Just my opinion. Keep em both so when the next wave of rookies come in you at least have some NHL experience on the previous wave.

That's a good argument. However sending one, or both, down greatly increases the odds that some of the Utica guys will get a chance to play (in Van) this year.

Basically I think we're using the limited time that good prospects have to be able to play in the AHL and NHL, without risking waivers, better by sending both down. Next year any of those guys can go back and forth without this pressure of having to play nhl minutes or you're screwing with their development.

The make-up of our lineup isn't helping either of those guys. Yeah it's good we have so many vets that are solid pros and individuals, but forcing McCann into a fit with Prust/Dorsett isn't developing his strengths. Meanwhile Virtanen is playing with a guy who keeps being asked about sophomore slumps, a fan base that acts like he's 30, and he has to carry not just the rook. but also the only player who the coach might just trust less than either of the rooks.

Right now I care more about the development of Horvat than any other player we have. Put Hansen back on his wing, and figure out the rest of the adjustments from there.

 

[arsmaster*]

Not really. Just like now, some were eligible to play there due to their birthday but lots weren't. Here's a sampling of guys who played junior: Weber, Getzlaf, Perry, Carter and Richards.

Bergeron was the only Canadian on the WJ team playing pro hockey to start that season and that group is pretty much the stars of the NHL right now.

 

[F A N]

I said earlier in the thread that I'd prefer we kept McCann for injury depth. He provides a good offensive option at center with dependable wingers like Burrows & Hansen, but not really an ideal dependable 4th line center like Horvat was early for us last year.

McCann has been able to have an impact in the lineup early because we were doing that weird thing playing Sutter with the Sedins. Move Sutter back to center, and at full strength McCann is the one who gets bumped.

He's certainly not ideal beside Dorsett and Prust, but there are advantages. Dorsett and Prust can dig pucks out of the corners and provide the hard forechecking and board play that McCann is incapable of right now and those two guys protects McCann from the physical stuff.

 

[Zaddy91]

I have a feeling Virtanen is here no matter what.

He has the size and he just needs an easy game with the right line mates.

As well as his Coach playing him more than 4 minutes.

 

[a Fool]

I'm split between McCann and Neither. McCann looks decent if a bit weak physically, but we'll need help scoring this year and his shot and playmaking are NHL level. Still seeing a lot of Jr mistakes, but I think he'll get better as the season goes on.

Wouldn't mind if both got sent back though. It can't hurt them. Jake should be back in Calgary as the top offensive forward instead of rotting 5-8 mins on the bench.

 

[TheWanderer]

Willie admitted it took a lot of convincing by Benning for Horvat to even make the team. When Vey was playing more minutes than Horvat, Willie did trust Vey more than Horvat.

Well that's what I mean, though. Whether or not there was push from Benning, Horvat outplayed Vey in pretty well every aspect other than Vey's PP goals.

This year, IMO, it's McCann outplaying Baerts by a mile, and we need more centers than we do wingers at the moment.

Virtanen, on the other hand, I feel has been pretty mediocre in the minutes he has been given.

 

[TheWanderer]

What's your point though?

Horvat was being held back early on and only got his chances when injuries to Richardson and Bonino struck.

Virtanen and McCann have already had that injury take place with Higgins and they're still marginally getting opportunities.

Since Sven likely gets claimed it makes more sense to give the teenagers their swan song in junior.

The 4th line is better with cracknell on it.

I mean it should be a no brainer to send JV back and McCann you can him and haw about but I don't think he'd hold up for a full pull in the show this year.

Like I say above, my point is that the minutes aren't a black and white indication of the rookie making the team.

I agree with you on most accounts:
- Baerts would be claimed. Might as well keep him. Give him a chance. He's essentially this year's Vey.

- For a 4th line, Cracknell fits better than McCann.

- Virtanen should be sent back.

- McCann's mistakes are mistakes that he wont correct in junior, because in junior it works because D-men aren't any good. If we want him to learn not to make those plays, he will learn faster here.


Some more notes, IMO:
- Vrbata should be with the Sedins, or he wont score because of our team's grinder composition.

- McCann plays best with Burrows/Hansen types on his wings, from what we have seen (still wouldn't mind seeing him with Vrbata)

- Keeping McCann makes it tricky with the centers, because Cracknell should be with Prust and Dorsett. We were winning games with that set-up, in large part because of them.

- I don't hate Sutter as a winger, and he provides excellent depth in that regard.



I think this makes sense when Higgins returns:

Sedin - Sedin - Vrbata
Burrows - Horvat - Sutter
Higgins - McCann - Hansen
Prust - Cracknell - Dorsett
Baerts