Blue Jays Discussion: Maybe guys are starting to turn it around.

[Discoverer]

Yawn. I don't care what picture FIP wants to try and paint; Happ has clearly pitched better than Price. Given our offensive inability, we would have lost basically all of Price's starts this season...so I fail to see how Price factors at all to our current 19-23 record.

Price's FIP looks sparkling in the same way that Hutchison's looked last season.

Having started reading a bit more about contact management, I'm not quite as sold on FIP as I was before. But it's still a good indicator of what a pitcher has accomplished without his defense. Price has been solid and unlucky, but part of that bad "luck" has been his own fault.

However... in Happ's starts, his runs against have been 2, 1, 1, 3, 3, 1, 0, 8, and the team has gone 5-3 in his starts. Other than maybe not completely blowing up in that last start, how does Price possibly give the team a better chance to win those games?

 

[Bad News Benning]

The 'injured Stroman being considered a new addition' remains the most infuriating part of anything.

Its like when the inevitable starting pitcher gets hurt and then comes back in August and they call it a 'trade deadline acquisition.' It isn't.

Marcus Stroman was a part of the rotation last year. He was injured, as is the case with many professional athletes. If his return had any consequence on them not going after Price that is nothing short of moronic.



Investing in Price would've a) made this team better this year (dear lord if someone tells me they think Happ will be better than Price all year I give up), and b) actually made it easier to not invest in JB/EE since you would still have a pretty clear 2-3 year window with a very good core even if they both left.

so if the jays are working with a 140-150 million payroll how do you expect them to put a team out there with most of that payroll sunk into four or five players? we don't have many MLB ready prospects to fill in the holes so how exactly do you build a roster deep enough to contend? We need to spend money on a numbers of holes...do we replace Jose/EE for Pennies? What about the bullpen, bench, depth, etc.

 

[Discoverer]

IMO this should have been the end game. Gives you an absolutely ridiculous team this year, a competitive core from 2017-2019 (maybe a bit further down) and also lets you restock the farm system a bit with the comp picks.

I don't want to get too far into this (lest we summon zeke), but who's replacing Estrada in this scenario?

If you're arguing that Rogers should raise payroll, then sure... I don't think anyone would dispute that. But if you want Price, you lose a lot more than just Happ.

 

[theaub]

I don't want to get too far into this (lest we summon zeke), but who's replacing Estrada in this scenario?

If you're arguing that Rogers should raise payroll, then sure... I don't think anyone would dispute that. But if you want Price, you lose a lot more than just Happ.

Wait what other argument is there here? I said the Jays were too cheap to pay for him. The whole 'Stroman replacing Price' was that cheapness summed up in three words.

And now it will come to roost when this team is wholly uncompetitive after this season.

 

[metafour]

Are Pillar/Travis/Sanchez/Osuna etc disappearing (not to mention whatever you're getting out of Estrada/Martin/Tulo etc in the near future)?

Estrada isn't here if we sign Price for $200+ million. Osuna is a reliever, therefore his net impact on a team is significantly capped. Martin and Tulo look so bad, that I'm having a hard time picturing what exactly they're going to be providing in the future. Tulo hasn't even suffered one of his patented half-season injuries yet.

We have some pieces, but realize that you're basically talking about a roster that isn't too far off what we had during JP Ricciardi's peak years. Halladay, Wells, Rios alone were all ~5-6 WAR players in 2006 (I believe).

 

[theaub]

Hey those 2006-2008 teams are three of the best five teams we've had in the past 22 years (and IMO all three make the playoffs in last year's AL East).

 

[Discoverer]

Wait what other argument is there here? I said the Jays were too cheap to pay for him. The whole 'Stroman replacing Price' was that cheapness summed up in three words.

And now it will come to roost when this team is wholly uncompetitive after this season.

I've been talking about Shapiro/Atkins all along and how I think they were smart in allocating their money the way they did.

 

[Mad Brills*]

AA screwed this team long term.

 

[Suntouchable13]

If we had Price right now, we would have had the exact same record as we do now. The starting pitching has not been the problem.

 

[RayzorIsDull]

Bautista batting lead off tonight.

 

[p.l.f.]

gibby is shaking the lineup

Bautista
Donaldson
Encarnacion
Smoak
etc

 

[theaub]

I've been talking about Shapiro/Atkins all along and how I think they were smart in allocating their money the way they did.

All the transactions made in 2015 pretty much ensured that barring a miracle this team will be garbage in 4-5 years anyways. I'd rather be reckless as hell and try to win over the next 3 years and be truly utter garbage after that.

You are more right than I am for the sole purpose that the only person that matters here (ownership) disagreed with me.

 

[metafour]

Hey those 2006-2008 teams are three of the best five teams we've had in the past 22 years (and IMO all three make the playoffs in last year's AL East).

So you're basically advocating an older, and considerably more expensive version of those '06-08 teams which ultimately were only "good", and never good enough to actually contend long-term.

That is the point: this core roster is too far past its prime to advocate dumping more long-term contracts on top of it. Signing Price is pointless if you're not resigning Bautista and Encarnacion. However; the simple act of signing those three in conjuncture basically guarantees you the same fate as the Phillies: its going to be a bit of non-guaranteed short term fun, for a long term headache.

 

[Cor]

Bautista leading off?

Gibby getting desperate

 

[Bad News Benning]

Wait what other argument is there here? I said the Jays were too cheap to pay for him.

And now it will come to roost when this team is wholly uncompetitive after this season.

the reason this team will/might struggle is because we traded the majority of our high level prospects the past couple seasons and we have an old core. Signing Price doesn't really change any of that other than leave the jays with a boat anchor down the road. If the team sucks after this season it will have little to do with not signing Price.

 

[Discoverer]

Bautista leading off?

Gibby getting desperate

I don't care if he's desperate or whatever reasoning he might have... it's awesome.

 

[Suntouchable13]

I think there is still plenty of time for a run. It's gotta start soon, obviously. You think it will be all hunky dory for the Red Sox and Orioles all season? I bet they also have a very mediocre 40 game stretch at some point. While we go on a 24-14 run.

 

[Bad News Benning]

Bautista leading off?

Gibby getting desperate

I'm all for it short term until Travis is back.

Jose gets on base 40% of the time and Donny is due to start breaking out soon. I'd prefer to have someone on base when he starts hitting Donny bombs and Edwin goes on a crazy tear.

Let your best hitters have the most AB's when you're struggling to score runs.

 

[Suntouchable13]

How old is our core really? Donaldson is 30, Tulo is 31, EE is 33, Saunders is 29, Travis when he comes back is or 25, Stro is 24, Sanchez is 22, Happ and Estrada are in the early 30s. Shouldn't winning teams be composed of guys like that? Some guys make it seem like we have a bunch of guys 35+ on our roster.

 

[Sokil]

Price hasn't fallen off at all.

he's been rocked in half his games this year, jury is still out, but he's hardly a savior this city needs

 

[Scrub*]

How old is our core really? Donaldson is 30, Tulo is 31, EE is 33, Saunders is 29, Travis when he comes back is or 25, Stro is 24, Sanchez is 22, Happ and Estrada are in the early 30s. Shouldn't winning teams be composed of guys like that? Some guys make it seem like we have a bunch of guys 35+ on our roster.

According to this link , this is the 2nd oldest team the Jays have ever fielded at the plate
http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/TOR/

Does that mean that every hitter falls off a cliff afer 29-30? no not really. Their is something wrong with a few of our hitters that is more than just a decline, imo.

 

[Scrub*]

Baseball truly is a mystery. Some players cannot play on turf(bonafacio). Some players cannot play in dome stadiums(Tulo)?. Some players cannot throw the ball to first base on pickoffs(Lester).Some are afraid of running to 2nd base(moneyball)

 

[Scrub*]

Peredes playing 2nd tonight, hitting after Tulo and before Martin.

Bautista leading off, JD bats second.

 

[GoodKiwi]

Listening to PTS there is a report that tonight's batting order came of a players meeting between JD/JB/EE/Martin a few days ago.

 

[metafour]

How old is our core really? Donaldson is 30, Tulo is 31, EE is 33, Saunders is 29, Travis when he comes back is or 25, Stro is 24, Sanchez is 22, Happ and Estrada are in the early 30s. Shouldn't winning teams be composed of guys like that? Some guys make it seem like we have a bunch of guys 35+ on our roster.

Its old. Happ turns 34 in five months and Estrada turns 33 in two months; so hardly "early thirties". Tulo isn't "old", but given his injury history and the fact that shortstops typically regress earlier than other positions (on top of the fact that he's been a poor hitter for about a year now) its hard to pretend that his abysmal performance isn't a bad sign for the future. Saunders is hardly a part of the "core" as he entered this season as a guy who may not have even been on the team. The "core" includes Martin, EE, and Bautista who are 33, 33, and 35 (Jose turns 36 in five months).