Prospect Info: Matthew Tkachuk or PL Dubois

[y2kcanucks]

https://twitter.com/GarretHohl/status/729004010410102784

Interesting. Adjusted for age and primary points, Dubois is ahead in terms of scoring.

That is interesting. He's ahead, but not by much though. If there's a choice between either or then I think there's a bit of a debate, but give I think either Dubois or Tkachuk will go at 4 we should be happy with the guy we get.

Keller and DeBrincat look good too, though they are a bit smaller (significantly smaller in DeBrincat's case). If we could pick up a high mid 1st, Keller would be a nice pickup.

 

[CanaFan]

Perhaps you are right. Though, I feel that my theory does have some value.

I look at the NHL as an art form, and it requires patronage to exist. The NHL, the fans, the parents, everything is a culmination from the grass root to the final product.

I don't have much opinion on any of that however I'd ask how much that really impacts the ranking of any *particular* player (i.e. Dubois) ahead of every other player who is in the CHL-NHL machine.

You can argue there is a tendency to "inflate" the value of every junior player in the eyes of NHL scouts and who knows, maybe there is something to that.

But doesn't result in Dubois in particular being singularly boosted above all other draft eligibles, rather all draft eligibles together are boosted.

So either way it doesn't really matter.

 

[dwarf]

I don't have much opinion on any of that however I'd ask how much that really impacts the ranking of any *particular* player (i.e. Dubois) ahead of every other player who is in the CHL-NHL machine.

You can argue there is a tendency to "inflate" the value of every junior player in the eyes of NHL scouts and who knows, maybe there is something to that.

But doesn't result in Dubois in particular being singularly boosted above all other draft eligibles, rather all draft eligibles together are boosted.

So either way it doesn't really matter.

I think certain things can give an advantage. One can argue that nepotism is a factor in producing players. You could look at Tkachuk or Dineen and Dubois this year who all have parents involved in hockey, and it could give them a leg up on some random farm boy like a Horvat for example.

Can also argue that having good bloodlines is just a positive thing. I just think its a good idea to look at every possibility when evaluating prospects.

 

[Zombotron]

Dineen...who all have parents involved in hockey, and it could give them a leg up on some random farm boy like a Horvat for example.

It's a common misconception that Cam Dineen is related to the Dineen hockey family, but he isn't - though, coincidentally, his dad's name is Kevin Dineen.

Carry on.

 

[CanaFan]

I think certain things can give an advantage. One can argue that nepotism is a factor in producing players. You could look at Tkachuk or Dineen and Dubois this year who all have parents involved in hockey, and it could give them a leg up on some random farm boy like a Horvat for example.

Can also argue that having good bloodlines is just a positive thing. I just think its a good idea to look at every possibility when evaluating prospects.

Nothing wrong with looking at all possibilities unless you obscure an otherwise clear and easy decision by giving too much weight to these "marginal" factors.

In the case of NHL parents this applies to several prospects rated at the top of this draft, including three that you have ranked ahead of Dubois - Tkachuk, Chychrun, and Nylander. In fact all 3 have parents who are much more "prominent" in hockey circles than Dubois' father who played in minors and Europe but never actually played in the NHL.

So if this is a *legitimate* concern of yours - it certainly isn't for me - then it should weigh more heavily on prominent NHL fathers like Nylander, Tkachuk, Chychrun, and Brown - than Dubois. Since you continue to rank at least 3 of those "advantaged" players ahead of Dubois I would have to assume it isn't actually a big part of your rationale in the end but perhaps more a line of argument you are pursuing in this increasing tangential discussion. Rather than discussing how a player skates, shoots, and thinks the game we are now reduced to nebulous arguments such as how much their parent influences their entry draft rankings. Not a terribly sturdy line of thinking IMO.

 

[dwarf]

It's a common misconception that Cam Dineen is related to the Dineen hockey family, but he isn't - though, coincidentally, his dad's name is Kevin.

Carry on.

That is an evil coincidence. Thank you for pointing it out.

Dubois though does have his father coaching in the Q, and Tkachuk is obviously the son of Keith etc.

http://www.localxpress.ca/news/2016...e-luc-dubois-enjoys-quiet-support-from-father

 

[Orca Smash]

I want to bring this post up again because it seems important. On the radio days ago, Benning all but confirmed that he sees PLD and Tkachuk in a class of their own, and that there is no #1 Dman (in his perception) in this draft. That the safe assumption is that one of these two would be selected.

Now, we get this claim from Sekeres. It's PLD or a trade down...? It 'half' contradicts what Benning said. Why would they trade down to take a lesser prospect (a Dman), if the a prospect they deemed to be in a higher class is still available?

I've listened to hour 1, 3 and 4 on TSN1040. No mention of this (unless I missed it). I would like to hear what Sekeres had to say on it.

I will try to find it, I was at work, but it was on friday. I cant even recall what hour it was or what was going on. As mentioned you are right it did contradict what i gathered from bennings interview just a few days ago. I notice as usual hour 2 does not work on that website.

 

[dwarf]

Nothing wrong with looking at all possibilities unless you obscure an otherwise clear and easy decision by giving too much weight to these "marginal" factors.

In the case of NHL parents this applies to several prospects rated at the top of this draft, including three that you have ranked ahead of Dubois - Tkachuk, Chychrun, and Nylander. In fact all 3 have parents who are much more "prominent" in hockey circles than Dubois' father who played in minors and Europe but never actually played in the NHL.

So if this is a *legitimate* concern of yours - it certainly isn't for me - then it should weigh more heavily on prominent NHL fathers like Nylander, Tkachuk, Chychrun, and Brown - than Dubois. Since you continue to rank at least 3 of those "advantaged" players ahead of Dubois I would have to assume it isn't actually a big part of your rationale in the end but perhaps more a line of argument you are pursuing in this increasing tangential discussion. Rather than discussing how a player skates, shoots, and thinks the game we are now reduced to nebulous arguments such as how much their parent influences their entry draft rankings. Not a terribly sturdy line of thinking IMO.

Well I think it is obvious that having involved parents helps their kids. As you have stated, many of the top ranked players are the kids of NHLers.

And I believe it does add value to their draft ranking.

 

[CanaFan]

Well I think it is obvious that having involved parents helps their kids. As you have stated, many of the top ranked players are the kids of NHLers.

And I believe it does add value to their draft ranking.

Oh I don't doubt that it helps them ... become better players. Which is, you know, the type we should be looking to draft.

Does it help that much in their draft ranking? I don't know, maybe with casual fans who can only remember "familiar name" prospects. But scouts and GM's who's jobs and livelihoods are on the line? I don't think it matters much. I mean I hear Ty Ronning's name mentioned a lot on these boards and by my less draft-focussed friends who ask me if we should take him with the 33rd pick. Yet CSS has him ranked at 82 in their mid-term rankings for North Americans. No real advantage there I'd say.

Besides, as I've already pointed out, 3 of the players you have ranked as "less risky" than Dubois also have NHL parents (and more famous than Dubois' pappy). So again if this is a legit concern of yours, why does it not bump Tkachuk, Nylander, and Chychrun further down your list as it has Dubois? Should they all not be ranked lower than say, Juolevi who doesn't have a famous and influential father? Or Sergachev? Or McLeod, Keller, Jost, etc?

Why does it only seem to be a knock against Dubois?

 

[Bleach Clean]

I will try to find it, I was at work, but it was on friday. I cant even recall what hour it was or what was going on. As mentioned you are right it did contradict what i gathered from bennings interview just a few days ago.

Yes, please do look into it. I listened for his comment in the first hour, at the same time the ISS analyst was on, and I didn't hear it. Must have missed it.

The only place it could be is within the beginning of "Hour 2", just after the break from their interview with the ISS analyst. That Podcast doesn't seem to be working at the moment.

 

[Orca Smash]

Yes, please do look into it. I listened for his comment in the first hour, at the same time the ISS analyst was on, and I didn't hear it. Must have missed it.

The only place it could be is within the beginning of "Hour 2", just after the break from their interview with the ISS analyst. That Podcast doesn't seem to be working at the moment.

Yeah just re-listened it was not after or before the ISS, the entire back and forth was about 30 seconds though so it will be like finding a needle in a haystack. He made the statement canucks are taking PLD or trading back for D, blake said something about tkachuk and he said something like no its PLD or they trade back for D.

 

[dwarf]

Oh I don't doubt that it helps them ... become better players. Which is, you know, the type we should be looking to draft.

Does it help that much in their draft ranking? I don't know, maybe with casual fans who can only remember "familiar name" prospects. But scouts and GM's who's jobs and livelihoods are on the line? I don't think it matters much. I mean I hear Ty Ronning's name mentioned a lot on these boards and by my less draft-focussed friends who ask me if we should take him with the 33rd pick. Yet CSS has him ranked at 82 in their mid-term rankings for North Americans. No real advantage there I'd say.

Besides, as I've already pointed out, 3 of the players you have ranked as "less risky" than Dubois also have NHL parents (and more famous than Dubois' pappy). So again if this is a legit concern of yours, why does it not bump Tkachuk, Nylander, and Chychrun further down your list as it has Dubois? Should they all not be ranked lower than say, Juolevi who doesn't have a famous and influential father? Or Sergachev? Or McLeod, Keller, Jost, etc?

Why does it only seem to be a knock against Dubois?

You can't say its a knock against one and not the rest. But I believe it does add to their draft value as I have said. Even if it is marginal.

And it may be real and it may not be. You can look at Ferraro and Tambelini and good blood lines don't always equate to success. Can look at Reinhart and argue the other way. People do look at Ronning's son and remember what his dad was in his prime. Same with Keith Tkachuk and Eric Dubois.

 

[CanaFan]

You can't say its a knock against one and not the rest. But I believe it does add to their draft value as I have said. Even if it is marginal.

And it may be real and it may not be. You can look at Ferraro and Tambelini and good blood lines don't always equate to success. Can look at Reinhart and argue the other way. People do look at Ronning's son and remember what his dad was in his prime. Same with Keith Tkachuk and Eric Dubois.

Haha, trust me no one remembers Eric Dubois "in his prime" unless they were involved in the now-defunct IHL.

Again - and you keep dodging my simple question - why does it matter more for Dubois than it does for Chychrun, Tkachuk, and Nylander?

Or is it unrelated to your ranking of Dubois behind those players? And if it is unrelated then why are we talking about it?

I'd like to understand your low ranking of Dubois, which clearly can't be due to lineage since you have other privileged prospects ahead of him.

 

[GPNuck]

I don't believe we will get Dubois.. I think a team will trade the Oilers a D-man for the 4th pick and steal Dubois from us.

 

[dwarf]

Haha, trust me no one remembers Eric Dubois "in his prime" unless they were involved in the now-defunct IHL.

Again - and you keep dodging my simple question - why does it matter more for Dubois than it does for Chychrun, Tkachuk, and Nylander?

Or is it unrelated to your ranking of Dubois behind those players? And if it is unrelated then why are we talking about it?

I'd like to understand your low ranking of Dubois, which clearly can't be due to lineage since you have other privileged prospects ahead of him.

I view Dubois at 8th, and I don't think its a low ranking. He is a good prospect and I have lauded his attributes and pointed out his negatives. If you want me to go over those again for you I can. Same with the players I have ranked ahead.

I look at the value of players rankings as the merit of them not busting and reaching their potential. I feel Dubois has a higher bust value than the players ahead of him. And less so than the players behind him.

Yes the point we are arguing is barely related and is being argued into obscurity. That goes back to Feebs declaring I am fabricating information. I do try to post links to back up my views, and everyone can get passionate about their opinions. I am not going to attack anyone on this board, as I feel everyone has a right to free speech and their opinion, and deserves respect.

At any rate, I feel there are safer picks at 5 than Dubois and that is my view. And I guess in some ways I feel I am defending my view and feel attacked. But considering 70 percent of posters polled here believe he is, I am going to have to agree to disagree.

 

[CanaFan]

I view Dubois at 8th, and I don't think its a low ranking. He is a good prospect and I have lauded his attributes and pointed out his negatives. If you want me to go over those again for you I can. Same with the players I have ranked ahead.

I look at the value of players rankings as the merit of them not busting and reaching their potential. I feel Dubois has a higher bust value than the players ahead of him. And less so than the players behind him.

Yes the point we are arguing is barely related and is being argued into obscurity. That goes back to Feebs declaring I am fabricating information. I do try to post links to back up my views, and everyone can get passionate about their opinions. I am not going to attack anyone on this board, as I feel everyone has a right to free speech and their opinion, and deserves respect.

At any rate, I feel there are safer picks at 5 than Dubois and that is my view. And I guess in some ways I feel I am defending my view and feel attacked. But considering 70 percent of posters polled here believe he is, I am going to have to agree to disagree.

I can related to having an unpopular opinion and can understand that you may feel "attacked" but that is the nature of discussion boards. You can have opinions but you will be expected to back those opinions up with some basis in fact.

With respect to Dubois I obviously view him differently which is why I'm taking the time to debate this with you. I pursued the "league privilege" angle with you because it started way back with your statement that Dubois is being propped up and touted as a centre by the Q in an attempt to get him drafted higher. As we pursued that assertion your reasoning has moved around quite a bit. Namely:

1. There are people who want to "sell" Dubois as a centre.

2. The team and league make line up decisions to get their players drafted higher.

3. Players like Dubois with "famous" parents get special privilege and advantages that "farm boys" don't get.

4. Finally you concede it actually has little to do with your ranking of Dubois.

So while you say that we've pursued this into obscurity, I've merely been trying to get you to present a strong argument for 1) way back at the top. Seemingly that argument doesn't exist - which is what I suspected all along - so now we can move on to more productive discussions about Dubois and where we each think he should be ranked.

So my apologies if you feel you are being attacked or something, that has never been my intention. But I did want to get to the bottom of that initial assertion of yours because I didn't feel it had any merit and should be left out of any proper discussion about Dubois going forward.

 

[dwarf]

I can related to having an unpopular opinion and can understand that you may feel "attacked" but that is the nature of discussion boards. You can have opinions but you will be expected to back those opinions up with some basis in fact.

With respect to Dubois I obviously view him differently which is why I'm taking the time to debate this with you. I pursued the "league privilege" angle with you because it started way back with your statement that Dubois is being propped up and touted as a centre by the Q in an attempt to get him drafted higher. As we pursued that assertion your reasoning has moved around quite a bit. Namely:

1. There are people who want to "sell" Dubois as a centre.

2. The team and league make line up decisions to get their players drafted higher.

3. Players like Dubois with "famous" parents get special privilege and advantages that "farm boys" don't get.

4. Finally you concede it actually has little to do with your ranking of Dubois.

So while you say that we've pursued this into obscurity, I've merely been trying to get you to present a strong argument for 1) way back at the top. Seemingly that argument doesn't exist - which is what I suspected all along - so now we can move on to more productive discussions about Dubois and where we each think he should be ranked.

So my apologies if you feel you are being attacked or something, that has never been my intention. But I did want to get to the bottom of that initial assertion of yours because I didn't feel it had any merit and should be left out of any proper discussion about Dubois going forward.

You are indeed a skilled debater. However, I do feel my views have merit, and you shouldn't just go in a circle to wordsmith and disregard them.

There are many examples of top forwards who have been ranked as centers in their draft years and they have not became centers in the NHL.

I don't believe Dubois game will translate to center at the NHL level.

And I believe that him being declared a center, is increasing his draft ranking to teams who covet centers. Yes we have covered other factors, but I think everything does have merit.

 

[Shareefruck]

I think that having involved hockey parents is a factor in getting prospects to the point that they've gotten, but if they haven't reaped the rewards of that to a degree that already makes them superior to the player they're being compared to, I doubt it's going to create any further separation down the road.

By the time you make it to the level that these guys have, you have the mentorship of other great players. For the most part, having hockey parents only give you the advantage of having a beneficial upbringing in hockey, not necessarily anything beyond that.

 

[CanaFan]

You are indeed a skilled debater. However, I do feel my views have merit, and you shouldn't just go in a circle to wordsmith and disregard them.

There are many examples of top forwards who have been ranked as centers in their draft years and they have not became centers in the NHL.

I don't believe Dubois game will translate to center at the NHL level.

And I believe that him being declared a center, is increasing his draft ranking to teams who covet centers. Yes we have covered other factors, but I think everything does have merit.

Firstly my being a "wordsmith" doesn't change the outcome of our debate. Yes I am fairly meticulous in my arguments and I don't let broad statements go unchallenged often but if you can back up your position I will acknowledge it and concede the point.

But going back to Dubois being touted as a centre, yes it certainly does enhance his value however that is because he may legitimately play the position. There is no league wide effort to "boost his stock" since teams and leagues generally have better things to focus on than get one particular player drafted high in the draft. I mean, the Cape Breton coach and GM care primarily about winning games since failing to do so can result in them being unemployed. So they will play PLD where it results in the most wins for them, not where it gets Dubois drafted highest. As for the league, I think their motivation to see Dubois drafted high is fairly minimal. And of course if they did actually want him drafted high then they probably wouldn't have suspended him for his late season "push" on Green.

So I'm happy to debate Dubois with you - which I assume is your preference since you posted it on a public message board - but I'd ask that you stick to things with actual merit, not vague conspiracy theories that don't hold up to even mild scrutiny. Also please refrain from saying it is your opinion and you are "entitled to it". That is a given and only reads like a cop out. We all have opinions just like you and we know we are all entitled to them. But we are all expected to be able to articulate our reasons for them as well and generally these reasons should have some basis in fact, not wild speculation. You would expect the same of me which is why I try to stick to factual or easily rationed points. Otherwise there is no point discussing anything as we can all just fall back on the "it's my opinion" defense and no one would actually discuss anything.

 

[dwarf]

Firstly my being a "wordsmith" doesn't change the outcome of our debate. Yes I am fairly meticulous in my arguments and I don't let broad statements go unchallenged often but if you can back up your position I will acknowledge it and concede the point.

But going back to Dubois being touted as a centre, yes it certainly does enhance his value however that is because he may legitimately play the position. There is no league wide effort to "boost his stock" since teams and leagues generally have better things to focus on than get one particular player drafted high in the draft. I mean, the Cape Breton coach and GM care primarily about winning games since failing to do so can result in them being unemployed. So they will play PLD where it results in the most wins for them, not where it gets Dubois drafted highest. As for the league, I think their motivation to see Dubois drafted high is fairly minimal. And of course if they did actually want him drafted high then they probably wouldn't have suspended him for his late season "push" on Green.

So I'm happy to debate Dubois with you - which I assume is your preference since you posted it on a public message board - but I'd ask that you stick to things with actual merit, not vague conspiracy theories that don't hold up to even mild scrutiny. Also please refrain from saying it is your opinion and you are "entitled to it". That is a given and only reads like a cop out. We all have opinions just like you and we know we are all entitled to them. But we are all expected to be able to articulate our reasons for them as well and generally these reasons should have some basis in fact, not wild speculation. You would expect the same of me which is why I try to stick to factual or easily rationed points. Otherwise there is no point discussing anything as we can all just fall back on the "it's my opinion" defense and no one would actually discuss anything.

I do agree that using, "my opinion," only weakens one's argument.

However I was having to defend myself earlier, and my point was my opinions are not lies. And it was hurtful, as I respect the poster's opinion.

I can give you a couple links with views on Dubois abilites at center. But you have already seen and read them. If you didn't get a chance to read them I will link again.

It is not something I am pulling out of thin air. And you can come to whatever conclusions you wish, as have I.

I have enjoyed this debate. But I am doing it from my passion as a Canuck fan. I really don't want the Canucks to get this pick wrong. The season was a unmitigated disaster. I hope that we can salvage something from it.

 

[CanaFan]

I do agree that using, "my opinion," only weakens one's argument.

However I was having to defend myself earlier, and my point was my opinions are not lies. And it was hurtful, as I respect the poster's opinion.

I can give you a couple links with views on Dubois abilites at center. But you have already seen and read them.

It is not something I am pulling out of thin air. And you can come to whatever conclusions you wish, as have I.

I have enjoyed this debate. But I am doing it from my passion as a Canuck fan. I really don't want the Canucks to get this pick wrong. The season was a unmitigated disaster. I hope that we can salvage something from it.

Actually I don't even deny there are those who don't view Dubois as a centre. Just as there are those who do. Your position is not really the problem or crux of people's "aggressive" reaction to your post. On it's own it isn't really any different from Bleach Clean's view that Dubois will play mainly as a winger in the NHL.

What clearly does get to people is things like your initial comment that Dubois playing centre is a "fabrication" by people who want to "sell him". This is a) Not factually true, and b) Even as a theory doesn't hold up, as our discussion for the past 3-4 pages has yielded. There is no one person who has really anything to gain by "fabricating" Dubois' ability to play centre in order to "sell" him.

In contrast to your assertion above, consider the following:

1. Dubois DOES play centre for Cape Breton. He also plays other positions.

2. His coach plays him at the centre position (at times) because it is in the best interest of the Cape Breton Eagles winning, not because of some plan to make Dubois go higher in the draft.

3. Dubois MAY be able to play centre in the NHL someday. This is open to debate and will gladly be discussed on these boards with no "attacks" from anyone. Insisting on 1) and 2) above will.

Does this make sense? Again it isn't about whether you like Dubois or not, it is about the arguments that you used as part of your rationale.

 

[dwarf]

Actually I don't even deny there are those who don't view Dubois as a centre. Just as there are those who do. Your position is not really the problem or crux of people's "aggressive" reaction to your post. On it's own it isn't really any different from Bleach Clean's view that Dubois will play mainly as a winger in the NHL.

What clearly does get to people is things like your initial comment that Dubois playing centre is a "fabrication" by people who want to "sell him". This is a) Not factually true, and b) Even as a theory doesn't hold up, as our discussion for the past 3-4 pages has yielded. There is no one person who has really anything to gain by "fabricating" Dubois' ability to play centre in order to "sell" him.

In contrast to your assertion above, consider the following:

1. Dubois DOES play centre for Cape Breton. He also plays other positions.

2. His coach plays him at the centre position (at times) because it is in the best interest of the Cape Breton Eagles winning, not because of some plan to make Dubois go higher in the draft.

3. Dubois MAY be able to play centre in the NHL someday. This is open to debate and will gladly be discussed on these boards with no "attacks" from anyone. Insisting on 1) and 2) above will.

Does this make sense? Again it isn't about whether you like Dubois or not, it is about the arguments that you used as part of your rationale.

I do see your point. I guess I shouldn't be as candid with my opinions, and be more politically correct.

I have not changed any of my views on the player from any of this debate, but I will in future try to be less aggressive. I am a dwarf, not a troll.

 

[CanaFan]

I do see your point. I guess I shouldn't be as candid with my opinions, and be more politically correct.

I have not changed any of my views on the player from any of this debate, but I will in future try to be less aggressive. I am a dwarf, not a troll.

Cool. Looking forward to debating Dubois and other picks in coming weeks and months. I may not agree with every point but I do like hearing other insights about a player before we invest a very high pick.

 

[SaintSinner]

Hockey News 2016 Draft Preview is out on Zinio. Tkachuk at 4 and Dubois at 5.

 

[dwarf]

Cool. Looking forward to debating Dubois and other picks in coming weeks and months. I may not agree with every point but I do like hearing other insights about a player before we invest a very high pick.

Yes I agree, there is still lots of info to take in before the draft.