News Article: Matt Pfeffer (analytics guy) let go **Mod Warning Post 402** Read before posting

Adam Michaels

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Jun 12, 2016
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God forbid asking someone actually using a more neutral source in trying to make a point. We must not upset those who like to delve in innuendo.

Don't cry now. There are plenty of places where you can enjoy gossip, if that's what you're after.

And who is neutral to you? If Letang said this to Sportsnet, you'd be okay with it? TSN? THW? EOTP? Either way, it doesn't change what he said.

Your issue is with the French media but that is not the point of the earlier posts you replied to. You take what Letang said and you focus on who he said it to instead.
 

Runner77

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And who is neutral to you? If Letang said this to Sportsnet, you'd be okay with it? TSN? THW? EOTP? Either way, it doesn't change what he said.

Your issue is with the French media but that is not the point of the earlier posts you replied to. You take what Letang said and you focus on who he said it to instead.

Clearly, you're quick to label. You're totally missing the point. It's not about who Letang speaks to (which is not the point), it's the fact that he is not a neutral source. It's widely known that Letang doesn't like Subban. So what do you do, crap on me for calling him out as a source, lump me with some generic Subban fan group.

The issue I raised with the French media is separate. RDS and TVA Sports have held a year-round campaign where their recurring scapegoats were Subban and Eller. Since they tend to bend over backwards whenever a French speaking player gives them sound bytes, this becomes a very easy place for someone like Letang to spew preconceived opinions.

You're reframing and deconstructing my post into something that wasn't meant.

I'm not in any "Subban fan club". If you're going to use a source to discredit Subban or Weber, just make sure the individual giving the comment has no personal agenda. That's all I was trying to say.

But please, keep on manufacturing stuff. :laugh:
 

Miller Time

Registered User
Sep 16, 2004
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No ones missing it. It's just wrong. The quote in question from the article:

“There’s nothing wrong with being average in the NHL,†Pfeffer said. “An average NHLer is worth a heck of a lot and that’s what Shea Weber is.â€

He's not referring to just one analytic and it's obvious. He actually genuinely believes that Weber is just an average NHL player. That opinion is ludicrous and is likely what made the Habs decide to let him go.

Jumping the gun...

The article didn't quote him entirely in context, which is something he clarified outside of it today after it was published. I was talking with the benefit of information outside of the article, which I figured there had to be because it was written in a way that made Pfeffer look like an idiot. Within the article it seems he's talking about Weber as a player at that moment, although he was previously making reference to Weber's impact on even strength goal differential.

This isn't an uncommon thing if you read a quote that makes a person look terrible, which is why its generally a good idea to exercise some charity in interpretation if you don't actually know for sure the context in which it was spoken.

Perspective...



and thus a clear example of why not all opinions/critiques/arguments hold the same weight...
 

JohnLennon

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Mar 26, 2011
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Apparently there was the entire conversation about evaluating a player's even strength impact through multiple measurements, with a strong emphasis of bringing everything down to impact on goals for and goals against. This is isn't traditional plus minus mind you, its a lot more sophisticated than that very broken method. Philosphetically, this is good practice as you want all analysis to ultimately look at value through the lense of impact on goal differential because that is what ultimately produces wins.

So in the context of discussing impact on goal differential, Pfeffer said that Weber is pretty average at that aspect of the game (a very important aspect I might add, although not everything). Average isn't bad, but it looks very bad against Subban, who is one of the very best at measurable impact on goals for/goals against by pretty much any modern analytical method that I am aware off (there are multiple approaches and its generally good if you are doing an in depth analysis to look at it from as many angles as possible, which reading through the lines as someone who has done this sort of thing at an amateur level, sounds like Pfeffer did).

This discussion of Weber through the central metric of goals in, goals out becomes Weber is pretty average at this, which isn't terrible but pales compared to what PK brings. There are a few elite aspects of Weber that aren't addressed by this approach, so any analyst of decent skill (which Pfeffer appears to be by reputation) would look at those when talking about the total package of Weber and wouldn't say flat out that Weber is just average overall. That's a pretty good twig that the quote, while technically accurate, was probably written in a way that would produce such a misinterpretation of his intention.

This is a young guy who lost his job and probably has no media training, so its easy to see how he's misplaying his hand horribly by stepping into a fan/media malestrom.

Thanks for the explanation. I really appreciate it. Definitely seems like a faux-pas on his part to be talking to the media so much, but he's just a kid and probably didn't know better. I wish him well in the future.

But this begs the question, why would he regret his comments if they were simply misrepresented? Does that not mean he meant what he said, but regretted it?

Jumping the gun...
Perspective...
and thus a clear example of why not all opinions/critiques/arguments hold the same weight...

Not sure if reading an article and quoting someone on what they said in it is "jumping the gun" but you have a right to your own opinion.

Just kind of seems odd he came out to the media to apologize for his comments about Weber if he didn't actually mean it in the context in which it was written in the article.
 
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vfactor

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Dec 8, 2009
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People really don't want to understand what Matt Pfeffer said instead of taking the face value of his conclusion. He did exactly what it was supposed to do if you want to 'learn' things from data perspective.

1- You have to have enough data. This is where he said at this point of his career (with his experience), Shea Webber data is enough to use to study as it. It means, he played enough years, had different partners, coaches, systems. It's not all possibilities but pretty good set of data to study from.

2- When you have enough data, you try to elaborate one set of pattern which are useful to you. In case of a player in a team sport, especially hockey where the team concept is much stronger than other sports, the logic pattern is the 'influence' on the game. The influence of each of the player presence on ice with 9 different players. What else you can learn really ?

People who laugh because they think he used +/- . Of course not, of course he would not do a presentation to the management group if he wasn't absolutely convinced of what he found. What he found using different approaches from his expertise field of data mining. He came to the conclusion that Webber presence on ice, after all those years of hockey with different set of 'unknown' parameters is neutral. It means that, within data realm, Shea Webber is 'average' in term of influence on the game. It's not positive, not negative.

Even solely use the +/- has a meaning in a long period. If a player is always in the - after ten years in the league. You can laugh all you want but he's probably not a good defensive player. Use one stat is always flawed especially if you don't possess enough data. When you have enough data, you crunch it intelligently then something will come out.

What Matt Pfeffer should have said that would make people swallow it easier is that Shea Webber data suggest that he's an average 1st or 2nd D. This will include the fact that he probably played more minutes vs 'harder' competition.

People who laugh at data study have absolutely no idea how powerful it is. Facebook and Google did a lot of research in this field with the best of researchers and the results are stunning or scary. One example, one of the study (Oxford) showed that if they collected around 70 'likes' that people use on their Facebook, they can trace a better personality picture of the person than his/her own mother. The experts, the I know better because I am the expert (the mom in this case), mentality is a human flaw because human always think they know it all. There're also countless example that 'experts' are absolutely wrong in their views but then they will say "error is human" to explain it all.
 

tinyzombies

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People really don't want to understand what Matt Pfeffer said instead of taking the face value of his conclusion. He did exactly what it was supposed to do if you want to 'learn' things from data perspective.

1- You have to have enough data. This is where he said at this point of his career (with his experience), Shea Webber data is enough to use to study as it. It means, he played enough years, had different partners, coaches, systems. It's not all possibilities but pretty good set of data to study from.

2- When you have enough data, you try to elaborate one set of pattern which are useful to you. In case of a player in a team sport, especially hockey where the team concept is much stronger than other sports, the logic pattern is the 'influence' on the game. The influence of each of the player presence on ice with 9 different players. What else you can learn really ?

People who laugh because they think he used +/- . Of course not, of course he would not do a presentation to the management group if he wasn't absolutely convinced of what he found. What he found using different approaches from his expertise field of data mining. He came to the conclusion that Webber presence on ice, after all those years of hockey with different set of 'unknown' parameters is neutral. It means that, within data realm, Shea Webber is 'average' in term of influence on the game. It's not positive, not negative.

Even solely use the +/- has a meaning in a long period. If a player is always in the - after ten years in the league. You can laugh all you want but he's probably not a good defensive player. Use one stat is always flawed especially if you don't possess enough data. When you have enough data, you crunch it intelligently then something will come out.

What Matt Pfeffer should have said that would make people swallow it easier is that Shea Webber data suggest that he's an average 1st or 2nd D. This will include the fact that he probably played more minutes vs 'harder' competition.

People who laugh at data study have absolutely no idea how powerful it is. Facebook and Google did a lot of research in this field with the best of researchers and the results are stunning or scary. One example, one of the study (Oxford) showed that if they collected around 70 'likes' that people use on their Facebook, they can trace a better personality picture of the person than his/her own mother. The experts, the I know better because I am the expert (the mom in this case), mentality is a human flaw because human always think they know it all. There're also countless example that 'experts' are absolutely wrong in their views but then they will say "error is human" to explain it all.

The eye test bears it out. He's flatfooted in his own end, and not very good at defending his own blueline, never carries the puck, never makes a stretch pass (it's always a small pass to his partner or a forward who comes back to bail him out). Defensively, he has holes in his game.

We will have to play him in a zone, which puts Chucky and Pleks (I assume, unless they want DD there.......) in man-to-man duty. We'll need lots of back pressure, so might have to play a lock with him out there? Unless Beaulieu is ready to mop everything up the way Josi did. Beaulieu did well with Petry, but not sure he's ready for that. Markov doesn't have the footspeed. That would leave Barberio, which is unfair to him.
 
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Runner77

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The eye test bears it out. He's flatfooted in his own end, and not very good at defending his own blueline, never carries the puck, never makes a stretch pass (it's always a small pass to his partner or a forward who comes back to bail him out). Defensively, he has holes in his game.

We will have to play him in a zone, which puts Chucky and Pleks (I assume, unless they want DD there.......) in man-to-man duty. We'll need lots of back pressure, so might have to play a lock with him out there? Unless Beaulieu is ready to mop everything up the way Josi did. Beaulieu did well with Petry, but not sure he's ready for that. Markov doesn't have the footspeed. That would leave Barberio, which is unfair to him.

Are you suggesting Bergevin should or may be looking to trade for a PMD partner to play with Weber?
 

Runner77

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Genius. He gets back PK with no NMC.

We've run that scenario several times since the trade. Imagine if they did that, a year from now.

Poile can really milk Subban's value with no time constraints to deal with.
 

Whitesnake

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Jan 5, 2003
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Someone that blindly uses (advanced) stats to call Shea Weber an average player is not an asset to a pro team. Hell he wouldn't even be an asset to HF.

Someone that blindly trades Ryan McDonagh shoudln't be an asset too. Someone that trades Claude Lemieux for Sylvain Turgeon shouldn't be too. Someone that traded DSP for the great Stefan Matteau shouldn't be too, someone that gives the kind of contract he gave to DD and Emelin shouldn't be too and yet, there are TONS of professionnals who did, does, and will do all kinds of stupidities (at different levels), that kept their job, and not only that but managed to do great things too......So EVEN if Pfeffer would have told his boss that analytics aside (which makes no sense as analytics was his only and sole purpose) Weber was an average D.....it would have been a stupidity, just like the TONS of stupidities made by TONS of professionnals that to this day STILL have a NHL job. But someone who would blindly use what Pfeffer said and doesn't think he was also only referencing Weber through his one and only job, the analytics, or his own interpretation of it, is out to lunch.

Mind you, I'm not an analytics master to say the least, so if the guy was indeed sucking at his expertise, so be it. Fire the clown, and replace him by much better guys. Can't wait to see that happen.

But I suspect that it's WAY easier to fire a guy who was coming from the exterior and didn't have ties to the management then firing guys who does stupidities but are "friends of the family"....There is just one problem though with the analytics...if Bergevin is looking for analytics savvy guys who would agree with that trade, chances are we remain without analytics specialists....
 

Forsead

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Correct me if I'm wrong, but from my understanding he used Weber and Subban careers collected data concerning goals produced by their respective teams when both players are on the ice at ES. Also, he collected data concerning goals scored by their opposing teams when both players are on the ice at ES. Then, he created a ratio of these two numbers. If that is the extent of his analysis I can understand why he was canned.

I mean it would be similar (and as wrong) as saying John Madden was a mediocre defensive foward, because he had minus seasons in his +/- stats.

Both these statements lacks context. A defenseman with high quality of competition playing in less favorable offensive zone start situations may be more useful by having a neutral ratio (of the stat I've detailed). In fact, his impact is favorable, because a real average defenseman would have a negative ratio if his role was the same.

Again, maybe his stats take into account this and I'm mistaken.
 

Cole Caulifield

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Apr 22, 2004
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Pfeffer
The SJ sharks analytics guy
Berkshire
O'sullivan
Johnson
Scheiffele
Toews

This trade has really pitted the analytics crowd against the eye test/experience crowd.

O'sullivan has called the Subban/Weber trade the hill analytics people are willing to die on.

Pfeffer has basically put his livelihood at risk moving forward doing what he did...

It's gotten pretty wild on the interwebs.
 

Bryson

#EugeneMolson
Jun 25, 2008
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He lost his job for it. Of course, he'd regret it. Dream job for any 21 year old.

Rule #1 of keeping your job. Tell the boss whatever he wants to hear even if he's wrong. Pfeffer is still young. Chalk it up to a life lesson. Those fairy tales your parents always told you about being virtuous and standing for what you believe in doesn't apply in the real world.
 

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