Dreger: Matt Duchene Mega-thread:Habs, NSH, NYI, OTT inquired - Part IV

[Avs44]

LOL...Yes, semantics, "seriously". It's really not that complicated. Sakic put out a broad category for his asking price. Calling it needs or wants, or asking price, or whatever is just semantics. Simply put, it was his asking price at this point in time, and only he can determine if the value offered was sufficient. Thus..SEMANTICS. That doesn't mean every offer meets that, nor does it mean that other teams are going to pay it, but for now, it's what his price is. It may change in the off season, or next year, or some other time. Just because a team marks off a check in one of the boxes, doesn't mean they met what he was asking for.

For instance, a young, high potential defenseman. From my own team, does that mean Jaccob Slavin? Noah Hanifin? Brett Pesce? Justin Faulk? or Haydn Fluery? Because ALL of those guys are/could be considered young, high potential defensemen, but they are not all equal and I would argue, would not all fit Sakic's asking price. If I was in Sakic's shoes, I certainly wouldn't bank on Maatta being that guy. His skating is a concern, as is his health, and frankly, his play has been pretty poor recently as well.

Another example...a 1st round pick. Again, a broad category. Is a Top 10 1st rounder the same value as Pittsburgh's 1st rounder? Of course not. So depending where that pick resides, it may not have fit Sakic's asking price. Sakic put out a broad set of requirements for his asking price. Each offer has to be looked at in totality to see if the value matches what his requirements were. Just because a team offered a young defenseman, a late 1st rounder, and a prospect, it doesn't mean it fit the bill. If the offer you are referring to was Maatta, a late 1st in 2017 and another prospect, then that offer doesn't meet his asking price IMO. Not enough value coming back.

As others have already posted, respectable people in the media have come out and said his needs weren't met so not sure why you are even arguing it.

Now, if you want to argue that his asking price is way too high and he'll never get that, well, that's a different story. You may very well be right on that front and only time will tell, but if I'm Sakic, I'm holding on to Duchene for the best possible offer, which likely isn't occurring at a trade deadline (for a guy with 2+ years left).

Thank you. This is a brilliant post.

 

[ichabod13]

with regard to the accusations that other teams (NYI and PIT for example) did meet the Avs' demands and the trade was not accepted...well since when does a GM has to accept such an offer. The seller GM is still in control as a trade is not finalized until it is. There are many reasons why a GM could still refuse a trade that meets his demands.

1. Very good value but bad due to ED. The value could meet everything and be very very good and even great but if it leaves the Avs with a big risk of losing one of these pieces to ED then it makes the return a lot less desirable. Same can be said if they lose another important players for their existing roster due to that particular trade. Yes they can turn around and address this issue later prior to the ED but why accept a trade that forces you to make another trade. What if you cannot unload that player and lose him in the ED? The end result is again the same: a reduced and less desirable return.

any selling GM better take the above into consideration before any negotiations even start. garth can either try to put together a bundle that he thinks sakic will accept and submit it, or he can try to manage sakics protected list while putting together his offer. hells bells he can try to manage sakics salary cap too while hes at it. sakic has to do more than just say "these two guys are available at a hefty price" and then refuse every offer made for them.
joe sakic is the GM of colorado, not garth snow or anyone else. so the expansion draft protected list for colorado is all on him, not garth or anybody else.

 

[TheWolf*]

Wow, the Avs are horrendous. Down 5-0 tonight against a ****** Jets team, on pace for a record low for points....only 38 ****ing points so far? Unreal.

Not only should Sakic be fired, he should be fired out of a Cannon right out of the state, and banned from ever returning.

What a joke that organization has become. Guess the high end young talent was never very high end.

 

[Gigantor The Goalie]

Wow, the Avs are horrendous. Down 5-0 tonight against a ****** Jets team, on pace for a record low for points....only 38 ****ing points so far? Unreal.

Not only should Sakic be fired, he should be fired out of a Cannon right out of the state, and banned from ever returning.

What a joke that organization has become. Guess the high end young talent was never very high end.

Has absolutely nothing to do with the team having ~6 good players and the rest of the roster being garbage right?

 

[TheWolf*]

Has absolutely nothing to do with the team having ~6 good players and the rest of the roster being garbage right?

The top end young players that everyone talks about are just not very good. Outside of Mackinnon the rest have been disappointments. Duchene? First line centre with 36 points this year? Horrendous. Landeskog? Young high end captain with 26 points this year? Putrid.

Get it through your thick skull Joey.....these "high end" young players are not as good as you think. NO one is giving up a 1st round pick and elite young prospect and a roster player. The rumoured ask from MTL was cringeworthy.

 

[CauZuki]

The top end young players that everyone talks about are just not very good. Outside of Mackinnon the rest have been disappointments. Duchene? First line centre with 36 points this year? Horrendous. Landeskog? Young high end captain with 26 points this year? Putrid.

Get it through your thick skull Joey.....these "high end" young players are not as good as you think. NO one is giving up a 1st round pick and elite young prospect and a roster player. The rumoured ask from MTL was cringeworthy.

Hockey is a team sport and when things are this bad everyone is affected.

What's more likely, that multiple young stars with previous (and recent) success in the NHL suddenly all forgot to play hockey? Or the team as a hole is in a rut and needs a major change (new management and better depth players).

The ask may have been high or even astronomical but 29 teams would love to acquire any one of Duchene/Landeskog/Mackinnon/Barrie.

They are better off keeping Duchene and Landeskog than trading them for mediocre parts. At least then they could end up with good vets and young prospects if they tank again next year.

 

[Go Wings]

The top end young players that everyone talks about are just not very good. Outside of Mackinnon the rest have been disappointments. Duchene? First line centre with 36 points this year? Horrendous. Landeskog? Young high end captain with 26 points this year? Putrid.

Get it through your thick skull Joey.....these "high end" young players are not as good as you think. NO one is giving up a 1st round pick and elite young prospect and a roster player. The rumoured ask from MTL was cringeworthy.

Isnt that what the Rangers paid for Yandle? The ask maybe high but I do think he can get a high return for Duchene at the draft.

 

[Duchene2MacKinnon]

The top end young players that everyone talks about are just not very good. Outside of Mackinnon the rest have been disappointments. Duchene? First line centre with 36 points this year? Horrendous. Landeskog? Young high end captain with 26 points this year? Putrid.

Get it through your thick skull Joey.....these "high end" young players are not as good as you think. NO one is giving up a 1st round pick and elite young prospect and a roster player. The rumoured ask from MTL was cringeworthy.

You clearly don't watch the avs... Mack is as if not bigger a disappointment then anyone on the avs.

 

[PG Canuck]

The top end young players that everyone talks about are just not very good. Outside of Mackinnon the rest have been disappointments. Duchene? First line centre with 36 points this year? Horrendous. Landeskog? Young high end captain with 26 points this year? Putrid.

Get it through your thick skull Joey.....these "high end" young players are not as good as you think. NO one is giving up a 1st round pick and elite young prospect and a roster player. The rumoured ask from MTL was cringeworthy.

Duchene, 50 points last year - 413 pts in 553 games. Landeskog, 53 points last year - 273 pts in 409 games. It's up to you to decide whether or not these are the players that are the problem.

You're right, it has absolutely nothing to do with the putrid depth or the putrid lack of scoring from the players other than their young guys.

Taylor Hall was on a podcast a week or so ago and said it was really tough for the their young guys to be put in the situation of having a mistake end up in their net every time. That Avalanche defense is absolutely ****ing garbage. Garbage. There is no way around that.

These young players need some support and it's unfair to put this blame on them because of point totals. Could they be better? Sure, but it won't happen with the putrid team built behind them.

 

[Sparky93]

Absolute worst thing the Avs could do is sell Duchene and Landeskog, coming off the worst seasons of their careers, with their value's at their lowest point. Even with the lack of depth and defence, that team should not be as bad as it is.

 

[AllAboutAvs]

any selling GM better take the above into consideration before any negotiations even start. garth can either try to put together a bundle that he thinks sakic will accept and submit it, or he can try to manage sakics protected list while putting together his offer. hells bells he can try to manage sakics salary cap too while hes at it. sakic has to do more than just say "these two guys are available at a hefty price" and then refuse every offer made for them.
joe sakic is the GM of colorado, not garth snow or anyone else. so the expansion draft protected list for colorado is all on him, not garth or anybody else.

What? How on earth do you come up with a response like this from what I said in that paragraph? Where do I say that Snow should be doing Sakic's job.

All I'm saying is that the players offered to Sakic by another GM could be meeting Sakic's demands but still declined due to the impact on the Avs' ED plan. If he accepted the trade then he would either have to deal the player that is now exposed or take his chances by leaving him exposed.

 

[Captain Mountain]

Isnt that what the Rangers paid for Yandle? The ask maybe high but I do think he can get a high return for Duchene at the draft.

I don't understand why that deal is relevant, but in what world does Galchenyuk, Sergachev and 1st = John Moore, Anthony Duclair, a 1st and a 2nd? Plus the Rangers got a high 4th and 50% retention.

 

[Makar Goes Fast]

I don't understand why that deal is relevant, but in what world does Galchenyuk, Sergachev and 1st = John Moore, Anthony Duclair, a 1st and a 2nd? Plus the Rangers got a high 4th and 50% retention.

very good point.