Player Discussion: Mathew Barzal

[Throttle]

last year we heard from full throttle to wait until the 9 million dollar a year contract kicks in for #13 and how he will be grossly overpaid. Then, when the kid actually plays to his contract well, the narrative moves to well he can't step up and lead his team to the playoffs and it's a direct result why the NYI are out of the race. Fast forward to now and the team is on the cusp of earning a spot due to the help from #13 stepping up and full throttle still is not sold? Appreciate your passion brother. LGI

Nope, the narrative was you shouldn’t be paying $9M+ for a 60 point player that circled the ice looking for his exact play and disrupting the flow of the game. If that was going to continue, then move on. The ask was for the player to change his game to accommodate the team.

The BFC narrative was that once unleashed he would be a PPG player, flourish, and rise to occasion as a top player.

Last year he went 17 games w/o a goal and the Isles made the playoffs based on a strong run while the player missed the last 20 games. Was he so critical? Nope, if anything, the team changed its system and also the game was simpler for the current players without Mr. Chaos on ice. Notice, what happened once he returned…

This year, he has changed his game, still flawed and disappears for long stretches or gives up in games by playing 20/60. He literally went -10 during a critical 12 game stretch. Notice he doesn’t skate around like an idiot like he did for 2+ seasons? Oh, it’s because he plays with Horvat, but when he’s doesn’t, he doesn’t skate around like the good old ice capades anymore. Maybe the player actually woke up and changed his game? That’s all that’s was ever asked.

All of this is just now getting value from the player at his contract amount. That is separate and distinct from a player leading or carrying the team. The latter is not something he is doing. He’s supporting by playing the way he is supposed to. He’s not elevating his game to the point he’s carrying anything more.

 

[Rehabguy]

What that roster has done previously isn't relevant to whether or not Kucherov is carrying that team today. That team was struggling and Kucherov is head and shoulders above the rest of his team and has continued his strong play during the most crucial time of the year. I understand that there is more high end talent on the Lightning, but that high end talent was struggling in the standings for most of the year still. Without Kucherov I do not think that team is in the same or a similar position today, they'd be fighting for a spot just like the other 5 teams below them.

Your claim that Barzal's presence is more impactful than Kucherov's is just flat out ridiculous. The only argument is that you think Tampa Bay could withstand a loss of Kucherov because of the talent they do have compared to the Islanders losing Barzal. That's not a good argument for Barzal carrying the team, it just shows that he's an important piece. I don't think the Islanders could withstand a loss of Horvat right now either, or Varlamov for that matter (not to mention we saw a very similar Islanders team make the playoffs last year without Barzal with a similar season point total).

I'm certainly not minimizing his contributions, I'm trying to fairly describing what it is. Someone mentioned he's carrying the Islanders and that's not really the situation. He's playing an important role and contributing towards this push for the playoffs.



I don't think swapping Kucherov and Barzal gives the Islanders a Stanley Cup winning roster this year but they'd be more of a threat for sure.

You are minimizing his contributions if not criticizing his game all year long. The focus here should not be on superstar status of which no one is arguing here that Barzal is better than Kucherov but Barzal does not have to be a McDavid or Kucherov to be the more impactful for his team especially this year. In this final drive for a playoff spot there is no doubt that both Barzal and Varly are having the most impact on this team where an argument could have been made earlier in the year that it was Dobson and Sorokin both of whom have disappeared at this most critical juncture in time. Barzal’s 80 point contribution makes him a more consistent and impactful presence throughout the entire season on the Isles directly contributing to at least 90% of Horvats goals and as you said he’s doing that on a team far less blessed with talent than Kucherov has at his disposal.

You know you and I have had the same arguments going all the way back to October of this year but in regards to Barzal and the "system" of play the Islanders should be playing this thread explains my side of the argument in its entirety. I'm tired of rehashing the same arguments over and over again and I'm sure others are tired of hearing it. You read the following thread from this page to the last and tell me where I was wrong about Barzal and the system they were playing then get back to me. Roy is doing everything I asked for and can anyone argue that Barzal is not the better because of it? Man on man defense in the D zone, defenseman aggressively pinching along the boards and approaching the puck carrier rather than turling and running the other way. Who woulda thought? Oh wait, I did!

Barzal and the system.

 

[PK Cronin]

You are minimizing his contributions if not criticizing his game all year long.

You're making things up, again.

The focus here should not be on superstar status of which no one is arguing here that Barzal is better than Kucherov but Barzal does not have to be a McDavid or Kucherov to be the more impactful for his team especially this year.

The conversation was centered around him carrying the team. That's what I focused on.

In this final drive for a playoff spot there is no doubt that both Barzal and Varly are having the most impact on this team where an argument could have been made earlier in the year that it was Dobson and Sorokin both of whom have disappeared at this most critical juncture in time.

There is no doubt? In the past 15 games (the last month) Barzal has 3 goals and 9 assists for 12 points. Horvat has 7 goals and 3 assists for 10 points and Palmieri has 7 goals and 2 assists. If you think that's having "the most impact" when you're just edging out the guys actually scoring the goals then I don't know what to tell you.

Also, being below a point per game in the final stretch of the season isn't a ringing endorsement for him carrying the team. He's doing his part, along with those other two (and Varlamov). f***

Just to note, in that same timeframe Kucherov has played in two less games and has 32 points.

Barzal’s 80 point contribution makes him a more consistent and impactful presence throughout the entire season on the Isles directly contributing to at least 90% of Horvats goals and as you said he’s doing that on a team far less blessed with talent than Kucherov has at his disposal.

I can remove the last month of Kucherov's season and he'd still have more points than Barzal. Barzal has not been more consistent or impactful this year. This is just fantasy.

Also, Horvat has 33 goals this year and Barzal has assisted on 20 of them. It's not quite the 90% you'd like it to be.

 

[MJF]

There is no doubt? In the past 15 games (the last month) Barzal has 3 goals and 9 assists for 12 points. Horvat has 7 goals and 3 assists for 10 points and Palmieri has 7 goals and 2 assists. If you think that's having "the most impact" when you're just edging out the guys actually scoring the goals then I don't know what to tell you.

The guy who puts the puck in the net is the one who carries a team. Just sayin…..

 

[Rehabguy]

You're making things up, again.



The conversation was centered around him carrying the team. That's what I focused on.



There is no doubt? In the past 15 games (the last month) Barzal has 3 goals and 9 assists for 12 points. Horvat has 7 goals and 3 assists for 10 points and Palmieri has 7 goals and 2 assists. If you think that's having "the most impact" when you're just edging out the guys actually scoring the goals then I don't know what to tell you.

Also, being below a point per game in the final stretch of the season isn't a ringing endorsement for him carrying the team. He's doing his part, along with those other two (and Varlamov). f***

Just to note, in that same timeframe Kucherov has played in two less games and has 32 points.



I can remove the last month of Kucherov's season and he'd still have more points than Barzal. Barzal has not been more consistent or impactful this year. This is just fantasy.

Also, Horvat has 33 goals this year and Barzal has assisted on 20 of them. It's not quite the 90% you'd like it to be.

Lost in all these numbers you're throwing out (though I must say if only 13 of Horvat's 33 goals were scored without Barzal's help I think it's not a far stretch to say that Barzal's feeding him) is the fact that Barzal tends to strike at the most critical points during the game.

The guy who puts the puck in the net is the one who carries a team. Just sayin…..

Lee put the puck in the net against the Rangers. What a carry!

All I know is Roy has totally vindicated me. God bless Roy! (and more importantly Barzal for that matter because you know there was friction there. Barzy says all the right things in the press because hes the consummate professional but it doesn't take a genius to see that he didn't agree with the sit back and play chess the previous 2 regimes preached. Tell Barzal he was right. He was right!)

 

[mm11]

Nope, the narrative was you shouldn’t be paying $9M+ for a 60 point player that circled the ice looking for his exact play and disrupting the flow of the game. If that was going to continue, then move on. The ask was for the player to change his game to accommodate the team.

The BFC narrative was that once unleashed he would be a PPG player, flourish, and rise to occasion as a top player.

Last year he went 17 games w/o a goal and the Isles made the playoffs based on a strong run while the player missed the last 20 games. Was he so critical? Nope, if anything, the team changed its system and also the game was simpler for the current players without Mr. Chaos on ice. Notice, what happened once he returned…

This year, he has changed his game, still flawed and disappears for long stretches or gives up in games by playing 20/60. He literally went -10 during a critical 12 game stretch. Notice he doesn’t skate around like an idiot like he did for 2+ seasons? Oh, it’s because he plays with Horvat, but when he’s doesn’t, he doesn’t skate around like the good old ice capades anymore. Maybe the player actually woke up and changed his game? That’s all that’s was ever asked.

All of this is just now getting value from the player at his contract amount. That is separate and distinct from a player leading or carrying the team. The latter is not something he is doing. He’s supporting by playing the way he is supposed to. He’s not elevating his game to the point he’s carrying anything more.

Just about everyone except you and a select few knew #13 was not a 60 point player, considering he blazed onto the scene with 85 points as a 20 year rook center. Then playing in a stifling D structure with limited running mates. Then if you looked closer in games played he is at 497 with a total of 442 points would constitute a pretty darn good Gamble to pay the kid 9 million.

Unleashed he is back to the 80 range while playing a pretty darn big role getting his squad on the cusp of another payoff spot.

BTW, Horvat had 16 points in 30 game last year on the NYI, 20 games without Barzal

No changing your mind, keep showing the passion. LGI

 

[Rehabguy]

Just about everyone except you and a select few knew #13 was not a 60 point player, considering he blazed onto the scene with 85 points as a 20 year rook center. Then playing in a stifling D structure with limited running mates. Then if you looked closer in games played he is at 497 with a total of 442 points would constitute a pretty darn good Gamble to pay the kid 9 million.

Unleashed he is back to the 80 range while playing a pretty darn big role getting his squad on the cusp of another payoff spot.

BTW, Horvat had 16 points in 30 game last year on the NYI, 20 games without Barzal

No changing your mind, keep showing the passion. LGI

Funnily enough in that thread I reposted above it was Throttle who claimed 5 games into the season that the game had changed too much for Barzal to be as successful as he was his rookie year.

 

[MJF]

Lost in all these numbers you're throwing out (though I must say if only 13 of Horvat's 33 goals were scored without Barzal's help I think it's not a far stretch to say that Barzal's feeding him) is the fact that Barzal tends to strike at the most critical points during the game.


Lee put the puck in the net against the Rangers. What a carry!

All I know is Roy has totally vindicated me. God bless Roy! (and more importantly Barzal for that matter because you know there was friction there. Barzy says all the right things in the press because hes the consummate professional but it doesn't take a genius to see that he didn't agree with the sit back and play chess the previous 2 regimes preached. Tell Barzal he was right. He was right!)

My post was referencing Bo Horvat and you know it.

 

[PK Cronin]

Lost in all these numbers you're throwing out (though I must say if only 13 of Horvat's 33 goals were scored without Barzal's help I think it's not a far stretch to say that Barzal's feeding him) is the fact that Barzal tends to strike at the most critical points during the game.

You said 90% of Horvat's goals were because of Barzal, that's factually wrong. Was it Barzal feeding him for the 38 he had last year? What about the 31 the year before that? Or the 31 the year before that?

Strike? What does that mean? You're just making things up again.

All I know is Roy has totally vindicated me. God bless Roy! (and more importantly Barzal for that matter because you know there was friction there. Barzy says all the right things in the press because hes the consummate professional but it doesn't take a genius to see that he didn't agree with the sit back and play chess the previous 2 regimes preached. Tell Barzal he was right. He was right!)

You were slobbering all over Lambert and now you're slobbering all over Roy and providing nothing of substance again, all while trying to stir the pot and annoy other posters. Cut it out.

 

[Rehabguy]

You said 90% of Horvat's goals were because of Barzal, that's factually wrong. Was it Barzal feeding him for the 38 he had last year? What about the 31 the year before that? Or the 31 the year before that?

Strike? What does that mean? You're just making things up again.



You were slobbering all over Lambert and now you're slobbering all over Roy and providing nothing of substance again, all while trying to stir the pot and annoy other posters. Cut it out.

The 90% was just to get a point across it wasn't meant to be spot on.

My sincerest apologies to anyone who think I was trying to stir the pot and annoy other posters. I know what I write and I would never be abusive to another person for simply being frank and honest. People can interpret what I write however they want but I know my intentions are good. Just because someone does not or never has, nor ever will agree with your take on things does not mean he's there trying to cause trouble. Can we just agree to disagree? Or is this supposed to be a one way conversation? I don't think we will ever see things eye to eye.

In other words, I don't know what you want for me to write. I love this team. I'm a passionate Islander fan. I love to write about everything Islanders. Why don't you write what you want me to say and I will copy and paste it and everyone will be happy.

 

[Nizami Ganjavi]

The 90% was just to get a point across it wasn't meant to be spot on.

My sincerest apologies to anyone who think I was trying to stir the pot and annoy other posters. I know what I write and I would never be abusive to another person for simply being frank and honest. People can interpret what I write however they want but I know my intentions are good. Just because someone does not or never has, nor ever will agree with your take on things does not mean he's there trying to cause trouble. Can we just agree to disagree? Or is this supposed to be a one way conversation? I don't think we will ever see things eye to eye.

In other words, I don't know what you want for me to write. I love this team. I'm a passionate Islander fan. I love to write about everything Islanders. Why don't you write what you want me to say and I will copy and paste it and everyone will be happy.

Actually I'd be in favor of this.

 

[PK Cronin]

The 90% was just to get a point across it wasn't meant to be spot on.

My sincerest apologies to anyone who think I was trying to stir the pot and annoy other posters. I know what I write and I would never be abusive to another person for simply being frank and honest. People can interpret what I write however they want but I know my intentions are good. Just because someone does not or never has, nor ever will agree with your take on things does not mean he's there trying to cause trouble. Can we just agree to disagree? Or is this supposed to be a one way conversation? I don't think we will ever see things eye to eye.

In other words, I don't know what you want for me to write. I love this team. I'm a passionate Islander fan. I love to write about everything Islanders. Why don't you write what you want me to say and I will copy and paste it and everyone will be happy.

I want you to stop spamming the same messages about turtling, confidence, chess, playing to win, losers mentalities, Trotz and Lambert, and players being unleashed. Oh, and how they're playing exactly as you want them to play when the team wins and exactly the opposite when they lose. It's weird that the team is only ever committing to your winning strategy when they are winning but never when they're losing.

 

[Rehabguy]

I want you to stop spamming the same messages about turtling, confidence, chess, playing to win, losers mentalities, Trotz and Lambert, and players being unleashed. Oh, and how they're playing exactly as you want them to play when the team wins and exactly the opposite when they lose. It's weird that the team is only ever committing to your winning strategy when they are winning but never when they're losing.

But how about you doing something about the spamming the same old negative messages about Barzal when the facts don't support them. You realize those messages upset posters too. No one wants to hear an endless barrage of negative messaging in regards to Barzal when at this point those arguments appear ridiculous.

And as for the bolded. That describes the team exactly. If they play the way they do in the first period of critical games where they are blowing away the competition they will be fine. When they skate backwards on back on their heals they lose. As I've said the only problem left with this team is all mental. That's the problem Roy is dealing with right now and has to fix fast.

Meh, whatever. PK let's you and I turn the page and move on. We should all be one happy Islander family here. I'll refrain from bringing those things up that you mentioned I think I got my point across anyway. I know you got your moderating duties to do but all I would advise that if you are going to post, please, please, please try to stay somewhat neutral.

 

[Strummergas]

I see it didn't take long for the bullshit to start again.....

 

[CupHolders]

I don't think I argued that they weren't working well together or that Barzal wasn't a play maker. The fact that they're working well together actually proves my point that Barzal isn't carrying the team. Carrying implies that they're doing it alone and/or are doing it when it's needed most and that simply isn't the case. Going back a month (16 games) Barzal has scored three goals.

To say, "he's carrying the team, but don't look at the guy(s) actually scoring the goals" is a very weird take that people have. Dobson has three less primary assists than Barzal. There just isn't a big enough difference between his production and the other guys to make the claim like some other teams are with their players.

There's absolutely nothing wrong with that and I hope they continue to click together.

Also, I forgot that Palmieri has been on his heater lately too and shouldn't be overlooked when it comes to scoring some of these clutch goals down the stretch.

Yes I was aware of that when I posted. We essentially are saying the same thing that Barzal isn’t exclusively carrying this team. He is however the primary play driver, and the player drawing the most cover on this team. Horvat is finishing (many of them plays started by Barzal).

Everything else is just particular posters doubling down on their empty narratives from over the years...

First Barzal is only a product of Weight

Then Barzal isn’t a playoff performer (as long as you focus on one and a half series and ignore overall stats and results)

Then Barzal’s nowhere near as good as Tavares because he made players better and carried teams in playoffs… just as long as you focus on one Florida series and how well Moulson and Paranteau put up PP points on regular season lottery teams.

Then it’s Barzal will never change/adapt his game, he is what he is… blah-ity blah blah and it goes and goes…

Anyway, @mm11 said it more succinctly earlier. There are essentially moving goalposts when it comes to Barzal. Not to mention too much narrative baggage for a reasonable discussion.

With that said, again he’s not carrying the team. But he is fulfilling his role as the primary play driver completely. This team could use another similar player.

 

[Rehabguy]

Yes I was aware of that when I posted. We essentially are saying the same thing that Barzal isn’t exclusively carrying this team. He is however the primary play driver, and the player drawing the most cover on this team. Horvat is finishing (many of them plays started by Barzal).

Everything else is just particular posters doubling down on their empty narratives from over the years...

First Barzal is only a product of Weight

Then Barzal isn’t a playoff performer (as long as you focus on one and a half series and ignore overall stats and results)

Then Barzal’s nowhere near as good as Tavares because he made players better and carried teams in playoffs… just as long as you focus on one Florida series and how well Moulson and Paranteau put up PP points on regular season lottery teams.

Then it’s Barzal will never change/adapt his game, he is what he is… blah-ity blah blah and it goes and goes…

Anyway, @mm11 said it more succinctly earlier. There are essentially moving goalposts when it comes to Barzal. Not to mention too much narrative baggage for a reasonable discussion.

With that said, again he’s not carrying the team. But he is fulfilling his role as the primary play driver completely. This team could use another similar player.

Beautifully said and those arguments are not at all factually correct but they are allowed to persist and annoy or influence other posters. This is spamming. I see others just trying to support their arguments getting blasted for trying to hold a conversation or a debate if that's the case but at least they are not trying to spread nonsense. I see nothing wrong with a poster holding their ground in a debate, but I have problems when posters just spread a whole bunch of fiction. If I write something that is not true, as god is my witness I admit fault and fix the mistake. I think it is the small faction of Barzal deniers here that are causing all the problems.