Post-Game Talk: MASSIVE WIN! | Leafs beat Wings 2-1 in SO | *Drops Mic*

[CabanaBoy5]

Im not a Carlyle fan and there are so many bizarre personnel decisions, but to be fair to the team, the Leafs played the night before and Detroit was rested not having played since the weekend. I believe Detroit will be playing their 3rd game in 4 nights Saturday and the Leafs will be rested, let's wait till then to see if this trend becomes a pattern and there is a repeat of last year's disaster.

 

[Leviathan899]

man this game was disheartening. we were so bad its crazy. just the perfect example of good coaching vs. bad coaching. luckily we have enough talent to scrape out some bad wins sometimes but this was pretty disgusting.

they better bounce back in a huge way next game, because this game was just depressing.

i cannot believe we are for some reason stuck with this godawdul coach. he's been here for years and last night it looked like the team has never even played a game together before. i have no idea how shanahan can watch this kind of game, knowing full well detroit's great systems approach, and not immediately fire randy for gross incompetence.

and its beyond hilarious that while he mixes and matches every other line he refuses to touch the top line despite it being pinned in its own end every shift by other teams fourth lines.

this game was an embarassment.

So Zeke, since you're such a brilliant hockey mind, I have to ask you. What would your system in the defensive zone look like? What type of breakout would you employ with this team? How would you have the forwards attack on the fore check? These are all parts of a teams system, and since you seem to think Carlyle's system is so bad, I want to hear from you what you would do with this team.

If you can't answer this for me, can you cut out the "brutal coach" comments you like to make? Yes the Leafs were brutal last night and they were extremely luck that Reimer brought his A game, but this whole blame it on the coach excuse is very tiring.

It's not Carlyle's fault some of his highest paid and top players are also very one dimensional players, lacking in certain parts of their games and strong in others. Babcock is fortunate he has players like Datysuk, Zetterberg, etc. that understand the game is played in three zones and play like it.

Even Polak himself said when he first got to Toronto that the systems they use are pretty much the same as in St. Louis, so what more can Carlyle do other than go out there and do it himself.

Most people on here who are so gung-ho with the firing of Carlyle can't even come up with a strong reason why, and what they would do different. Maybe other than just pointing to possession numbers.

 

[Duffman955]

So Zeke, since you're such a brilliant hockey mind, I have to ask you. What would your system in the defensive zone look like? What type of breakout would you employ with this team? How would you have the forwards attack on the fore check? These are all parts of a teams system, and since you seem to think Carlyle's system is so bad, I want to hear from you what you would do with this team.

If you can't answer this for me, can you cut out the "brutal coach" comments you like to make? Yes the Leafs were brutal last night and they were extremely luck that Reimer brought his A game, but this whole blame it on the coach excuse is very tiring.

It's not Carlyle's fault some of his highest paid and top players are also very one dimensional players, lacking in certain parts of their games and strong in others. Babcock is fortunate he has players like Datysuk, Zetterberg, etc. that understand the game is played in three zones and play like it.

Even Polak himself said when he first got to Toronto that the systems they use are pretty much the same as in St. Louis, so what more can Carlyle do other than go out there and do it himself.

Most people on here who are so gung-ho with the firing of Carlyle can't even come up with a strong reason why, and what they would do different. Maybe other than just pointing to possession numbers.

This is the part a lot of people can't answer.

 

[080]

This is the part a lot of people can't answer.

Most of the players on the team seem to be playing a good game as far as I can tell. It's a select few (Kessel, Gardiner, and sometimes JVR and Bozak) who won't commit to playing the certain style of game that the rest of the team is.

 

[Leviathan899]

This is the part a lot of people can't answer.

I know, but they're the ones that always post "FIRE CARLYLE" yet can't even come up with a reason why, other than pointing at possession stats.

I am not in favor of firing Carlyle because I truly don't believe it lies at his feet really. I agree he has a few head scratching personnel decisions, but if you follow other teams consistently, all coaches do, even the coaches everyone on here deem as much better than Carlyle.

 

[Delicious Dangles*]

This is the part a lot of people can't answer.

Splitting up the Bozak line is definitely one thing.

 

[Leviathan899]

Most of the players on the team seem to be playing a good game as far as I can tell. It's a select few (Kessel, Gardiner, and sometimes JVR and Bozak) who won't commit to playing the certain style of game that the rest of the team is.

Yes, and until this problem is rectified, whichever way they have to do it, no matter the coach we have will it be much different.

I think if we were to fire Carlyle, the Leafs possession numbers and Corsi/Fenwick under the new coach would not look a whole lot different over time, if the same team is kept.

 

[HockeyThoughts]

Come on now.

Sheahan's ELC was 3yr @ $785K = $2.355M. $2.7M total including all bonuses.
He's now in the 1st year of his 2yr @ $950K standard contract.

Kadri's ELC was
1 slide year
3 yrs @ $870K plus $850K bonus each year.
Total including all bonuses $5.25M
He's now in year 2 of his 2 yr @ $2.9M standard contract.

The Leafs paid Kadri almost double what the Wings paid Sheahan on their ELC's.
The Leafs paid Kadri almost triple what the Wings paid Sheahan on his first standard contract.

Hey! Why don't you answer my post? The one right below your first one.

 

[Daisy Jane]

I know a lot of people don't like the Steve Dangle podcast, but he made a good point.

we get to the shootout, and Detroit sends out Pavel Datsyuk, the MagicMan, first, and Leafs fans think. "it's okay, we have Tyler Bozak."

its soo true.

 

[ECanuck]

I know a lot of people don't like the Steve Dangle podcast, but he made a good point.

we get to the shootout, and Detroit sends out Pavel Datsyuk, the MagicMan, first, and Leafs fans think. "it's okay, we have Tyler Bozak."

its soo true.

Leaf fans when Bozak is on the shootout. Money, money!

 

[happyaccident]

Don't know how anyone could say that Carlyle detractors never offer up anything different. Break up the first line, Last season: put together a non-goon 4th line and play them, playing Phanuef too much, he's going to burn out, same with the 1st line, get Phaneuf off the 1pp when he's stinking it up, break up Bozak/Kessel, etc, etc, hear it all the time.
Nobody blames Carlyle for the play of some guys, just the fact that he's in charge of continually trotting them out there together

 

[hockeyes]

Well the most obvious issue with Carlyle's system is the lack of puck support coming out of their own end and while trying to regain possession in their own end.

Forwards rush the opposing blue line looking to receive a stretch pass, this limits the options of the puck carrier and forces low percentage plays which more often then not only result in a turn over or icing. Ideally you want to have options, it's fine if you have one guy going up ahead of the play to try and open up some ice but that can't be your only plan and shouldn't be relied on.

When other teams are in the zone, the system is extremely passive. Nobody tries to support the puck battles, they just focus on maintaining inside position. The #1 goal in your own end should be to regain possession, in the current system the only goal that matters is keeping the other team to the outside and trying to chip it up the boards if you manage to get a stick on the puck.

Short simple passes while moving as a unit from one end of the ice to the other just doesn't happen in Carlyle's plan.

The neutral zone seems fine, they are aggressive in that zone but completely get neutered once it's in their end.

One play in particular really highlighted this yesterday, Dion had an opportunity to get a loose puck as both players fighting for it were tied up, the puck was literally sitting there just to the left of the Toronto player with the Detroit player pinched off. Dion took a stride towards it, then immediately looked over his shoulder, stopped, and started skating backwards. The puck proceeded to sit there another second or two before a Detroit player player came in and easily picked up the puck. Dion could have gotten there first his current momentum and head start but he caught himself breaking the system and retreated, prolonging the zone time.

Either this group of players are the most uncoachable players in the NHL or this is how they are told to play.

 

[TML1]

The top unit is fine. 4 forwards and Phaneuf is perfect.

Franson and Rielly should be the 2nd pairing PP.

Gardiner doesn't deserve PP time right now.

Franson is the much better option on PP. He has a harder more accurate shot. He also has much better vision. How many times have we seen Phaneuf take a low % shot? Sometimes I think he's on the 1st PP just so management can validate the $ and contract they gave him.

 

[johnny_rudeboy]

Well the most obvious issue with Carlyle's system is the lack of puck support coming out of their own end and while trying to regain possession in their own end.

Forwards rush the opposing blue line looking to receive a stretch pass, this limits the options of the puck carrier and forces low percentage plays which more often then not only result in a turn over or icing. Ideally you want to have options, it's fine if you have one guy going up ahead of the play to try and open up some ice but that can't be your only plan and shouldn't be relied on.

When other teams are in the zone, the system is extremely passive. Nobody tries to support the puck battles, they just focus on maintaining inside position. The #1 goal in your own end should be to regain possession, in the current system the only goal that matters is keeping the other team to the outside and trying to chip it up the boards if you manage to get a stick on the puck.

Short simple passes while moving as a unit from one end of the ice to the other just doesn't happen in Carlyle's plan.

The neutral zone seems fine, they are aggressive in that zone but completely get neutered once it's in their end.

One play in particular really highlighted this yesterday, Dion had an opportunity to get a loose puck as both players fighting for it were tied up, the puck was literally sitting there just to the left of the Toronto player with the Detroit player pinched off. Dion took a stride towards it, then immediately looked over his shoulder, stopped, and started skating backwards. The puck proceeded to sit there another second or two before a Detroit player player came in and easily picked up the puck. Dion could have gotten there first his current momentum and head start but he caught himself breaking the system and retreated, prolonging the zone time.

Either this group of players are the most uncoachable players in the NHL or this is how they are told to play.

Second time I post this link, last time it was shot down as a hack job but I can not but see what is written in the article goes perfectly hand in hand with how we play.

As long as we are the Kessel show we will see the stretch passes leading to turn overs and us being hemmed in our own zone. At the same time we will see a lot of nice 1 on 1 or 2 on 1 when the pass to connect.

And since Randy seem to think that the hierarchy rather fire him and Spott then trade Kessel if they take action on him not wanting to play their system he will leave Kessel alone and the first line will do what ever the first line wants to do. He can instead focus on getting the other 3 lines playing according to their system.

http://www.thestar.com/sports/leafs..._hot_on_spotts_breakout_strategy_feschuk.html

 

[Cor]

Franson is the much better option on PP. He has a harder more accurate shot. He also has much better vision. How many times have we seen Phaneuf take a low % shot? Sometimes I think he's on the 1st PP just so management can validate the $ and contract they gave him.

If you think the Leafs need to validate his contract.. I'm not sure what to say

 

[Leviathan899]

Well the most obvious issue with Carlyle's system is the lack of puck support coming out of their own end and while trying to regain possession in their own end.

Forwards rush the opposing blue line looking to receive a stretch pass, this limits the options of the puck carrier and forces low percentage plays which more often then not only result in a turn over or icing. Ideally you want to have options, it's fine if you have one guy going up ahead of the play to try and open up some ice but that can't be your only plan and shouldn't be relied on.

When other teams are in the zone, the system is extremely passive. Nobody tries to support the puck battles, they just focus on maintaining inside position. The #1 goal in your own end should be to regain possession, in the current system the only goal that matters is keeping the other team to the outside and trying to chip it up the boards if you manage to get a stick on the puck.

Short simple passes while moving as a unit from one end of the ice to the other just doesn't happen in Carlyle's plan.

The neutral zone seems fine, they are aggressive in that zone but completely get neutered once it's in their end.

One play in particular really highlighted this yesterday, Dion had an opportunity to get a loose puck as both players fighting for it were tied up, the puck was literally sitting there just to the left of the Toronto player with the Detroit player pinched off. Dion took a stride towards it, then immediately looked over his shoulder, stopped, and started skating backwards. The puck proceeded to sit there another second or two before a Detroit player player came in and easily picked up the puck. Dion could have gotten there first his current momentum and head start but he caught himself breaking the system and retreated, prolonging the zone time.

Either this group of players are the most uncoachable players in the NHL or this is how they are told to play.

Ya you seem to have a very good understanding of system play and I appreciate your response, very well thought out.

I just think that the reason why there is very little puck support in coming out of our zone, as well as the wingers hanging out by the far blue line looking for a stretch pass is the personnel we employ. Kessel and JVR are not strong along the wall, and don't seem willing to fight through contact to make a play. Until this is changed then these guys are going to continue to fly the zone looking for the home run pass that likely gets picked off or they just chip it in and don't retrieve it back.

I don't think it is the system Randy is employing because I see guys like Santorelli and Winnik come down low to support the puck, and they have a much easier time transitioning from their own zone.

Now to your talk of the defensive zone, I also agree to an extent. I remember the play with Phaneuf you are talking about, I honestly believe that was more Phaneuf being out of gas and not wanting to get hit when he retrieves the puck, moreso than the system. Phaneuf always seems to allow the attacking forward to get to the puck first and then he tries to keep himself between his net and the puck. I agree we need more movement and puck support in the defensive end, way too many 1 on 1 battles in which we just try and keep them to the outside, but this leads to point shots and scrambles in front of our net. We need our wingers to compete physically along the wall when the puck comes to the half wall, not just letting guys cruise up the wall and either make an uncontested pass to their Dman or cycle it back down low. It helps having Polak healthy because he will play physical on his man and stop the cycle.

I have no issue with people saying they want Carlyle fired but at least give a valid reason why.

 

[The Legend]

This is the part a lot of people can't answer.

Umm - that's because "people" aren't NHL coaches and that's not their job...

 

[Tyler Biggs*]

Forget the first 2 periods...Reimer was outstanding, held us in there, we woke up in the third and OT, didn't give them too much, slayed it in the shoot out, need to get those shots down, hopefully Polak and Kamarov will help in that area....nice pass by JVR to Kess...we'll take the 2 points against a very good wings team....nice W Reims.

 

[Tyler Biggs*]

Second game of a back-to-back on the road, not surprising that they got outplayed. No need to over-analyze it. Great game from Reimer.

 

[HamiltonNHL]

Forget the first 2 periods...

I can't

Reimer was outstanding, held us in there,

Yep.

we woke up in the third and OT

We did ?

We got a goal ... yes.

But we:
Got outshot 18-6 in 3rd.

That's not waking up.
That's one great, somewhat lucky, pass => Goal.
And otherwise getting killed.

Great Goaltending + 1 great pass shouldn't result in 2 points.
Mostly pure luck.

 

[Pyromaniac3]

So Zeke, since you're such a brilliant hockey mind, I have to ask you. What would your system in the defensive zone look like? What type of breakout would you employ with this team? How would you have the forwards attack on the fore check? These are all parts of a teams system, and since you seem to think Carlyle's system is so bad, I want to hear from you what you would do with this team. So are movie critics, video game critics, political critics not allowed to criticisize the product if they cannot create the product themselves?

If you can't answer this for me, can you cut out the "brutal coach" comments you like to make? Yes the Leafs were brutal last night and they were extremely luck that Reimer brought his A game, but this whole blame it on the coach excuse is very tiring.

It's not Carlyle's fault some of his highest paid and top players are also very one dimensional players, lacking in certain parts of their games and strong in others. Babcock is fortunate he has players like Datysuk, Zetterberg, etc. that understand the game is played in three zones and play like it. Every player that leaves Carlyle's team has a significant increase in CF% and every player who enters Carlyle's team has a significant dropoff in CF%.

Even Polak himself said when he first got to Toronto that the systems they use are pretty much the same as in St. Louis, so what more can Carlyle do other than go out there and do it himself. Link? Even then our roster is completely different from St.Loius. They are a heavy team where they can dump and chase. We are a skating team. Does that mean Carlyle can't adjust his strategies based on our roster?

Most people on here who are so gung-ho with the firing of Carlyle can't even come up with a strong reason why, and what they would do different. Maybe other than just pointing to possession numbers.Neither can movie, food, video game, or any other critics out there.

What you are just telling us is don't ask for firing the coach if you haven't coached the game before. Even then that person has to watch a lot of video to even begin to give us an opinion about Carlyle's system.

 

[Alerion]

Hilarious video from Dangle, for those who haven't seen it.

 

[Rogie]

man this game was disheartening. we were so bad its crazy. just the perfect example of good coaching vs. bad coaching. luckily we have enough talent to scrape out some bad wins sometimes but this was pretty disgusting.

they better bounce back in a huge way next game, because this game was just depressing.

i cannot believe we are for some reason stuck with this godawdul coach. he's been here for years and last night it looked like the team has never even played a game together before. i have no idea how shanahan can watch this kind of game, knowing full well detroit's great systems approach, and not immediately fire randy for gross incompetence.

and its beyond hilarious that while he mixes and matches every other line he refuses to touch the top line despite it being pinned in its own end every shift by other teams fourth lines.

this game was an embarassment.

I agree with this. We win in spite of RC when we win!

I think having a 'playing' coach, like some teams had in the past, could yield better results. If you just let the players decide who should go out when, I believe they'd make better decisions than RC does.

 

[Leviathan899]

What you are just telling us is don't ask for firing the coach if you haven't coached the game before. Even then that person has to watch a lot of video to even begin to give us an opinion about Carlyle's system.

Yes, it is slightly ridiculous to critique the system if you don't even know what the system is, or what it's lacking. You don't need to have coached the game before to be able to offer up something to improve it.

 

[Antropovsky]

Hilarious video from Dangle, for those who haven't seen it.

Sad part is that his Optimus Reim effects are better than the senators 300 Trojan warrior was... By a long shot.