Blue Jays Discussion: Martin, Donaldson .. What Else Is Up Your Sleeve AA? (hint: it's Saunders)

[The Man in White]

I thought no one here gave a **** about closer, happy to see you give them a credit for what they are worth.

 

[FreeBird]

Maybe. But Saunders is almost a bit too far from Sanders for it to really work.

Besides Mrs. Saunders isn't raising her Kids in Canada, maybe in Toronto

 

[The Nemesis]

Also I give a **** about closers. I feel having a great 8th-9th inning is important. I remember the days of us blowing many games we should have won a few years ago. But I would never give any of them 9 mill a year. It's important but you can find cheap options who can lock it down so it wastes money. You win most games entering the 9th inning with the lead. There is always cheap options available who can be just as good.

What Id like is adding a couple dominant righties as we have Loup and Cecil. But cheap ones... Which can be found.

I agree with this. It's not so much that you don't need the closer, it's that for the price of one closer, you can get 2-4 guys who are just as good or nearly as good, but don't come with the price tag attached to that "closer" label. Give me those guys plus Cecil, Loup, Delabar, Tepera, Jenkins, Hynes, Rasmussen and whoever else might show up for spring training in a short-relief role (which is why I didn't mention Estrada and Redmond) and chances are somewhere in that batch you're going to find a guy who can handle the 9th. And you'll then have the advantage of also having guys who can handle lefties and righties in the 7th and 8th and high leverage roles too and room for a couple guys to be the long-men or spot starters. That's a pool of like 9-11+ guys for the short relief spots and you only need to fill 5 spots with them. Someone in there will be able to handle the 9th. Remember Janssen wasn't supposed to be able to. he was a burned out starter who had a flash of success followed by failures leading to his conversion to a reliever. Then he put in almost 200 relief appearances that weren't for saves before he basically got the closer role by default after the 2010 Rauch/Frankie Franks experiment blew up in Toronto's face, and then the 2011 acquisition of Santos saw him get hurt and Francisco Cordero couldn't hack it (and remember, Cordero was one of those vaunted "closer's mentality" guys that came to the Jays having logged 750 MLB games in relief and notched almost 330 saves. And look how that worked out)

Closers are always a risk to acquire whether it's paying big FA money that might blow up in your face or finding an internal candidate that might not function as well in the 9th. So give me the opportunity to have several kicks at finding the right guy for the price of one "proven" closer over blowing your money on someone pricey with no guarantee their success continues.

 

[Canada4Gold]

Honestly, you'd think this fan base would have learned by now, how many closets have we went out and gotten only for then to pitch terribly?

Just off the top of my head BJ Ryan was good for a year ten terrible, Rauch, Fransisco, Santos. I don't think we've went out and gotten a proven to notch reliever to try him in that role and he's succeeded over his term here. And there's a reason for that, bullpens are extremely volatile, just look at Delabar last year, sure he wasn't a closer but coming off a season where he was an all star if he was a free agent someone probably would have threw money at him and made him a closer, and this past year he was so bad he got sent down

 

[Kurtz]

Honestly, you'd think this fan base would have learned by now, how many closets have we went out and gotten only for then to pitch terribly?

Just off the top of my head BJ Ryan was good for a year ten terrible, Rauch, Fransisco, Santos. I don't think we've went out and gotten a proven to notch reliever to try him in that role and he's succeeded over his term here. And there's a reason for that, bullpens are extremely volatile, just look at Delabar last year, sure he wasn't a closer but coming off a season where he was an all star if he was a free agent someone probably would have threw money at him and made him a closer, and this past year he was so bad he got sent down

BJ was amazing. Then got injured, and it was over for him.

Rauch, Francisco and Santos were all bargain bin attempts at closers because our thinking was that spending money on a proper closer wasn't worth it...

 

[Eyedea]

bargain bin, sure.

 

[Eyedea]

Gregerson has played in some pitcher friendly parks. Bit nervous about giving him 3yrs at 8 million a pop. I think you can get better value elsewhere.

Like the McCarthy signing however.
rather spend 8 million on someone like Lowrie to upgrade 2nd.

He's one of the few relievers that I would target and offer a multi year deal. I think a 3/24 deal is a tad higher than he may get though. MLBTR predicts a 3/20 for Gregerson which I think is more accurate. They list a few comparables in his free agent profile.

 

[The Nemesis]

BJ was amazing. Then got injured, and it was over for him.

Rauch, Francisco and Santos were all bargain bin attempts at closers because our thinking was that spending money on a proper closer wasn't worth it...

Bargain bin?

Santos was coming off a 30-save season with ridiculous strikeout numbers. He was basically exactly the kind of pitcher that people think of when they think "closer" a big, strong, hard-throwing righty with a power fastball and a wipeout secondary pitch (in his case, a big slider)

Francisco was acquired for Mike Napoli, who was a big piece in the return the Jays got for dumping Vernon Wells' albatross contract on the Angels. Most people harangue Jays' management for that trade, calling giving up a very solid player in Napoli for Francisco, who had a 25 save season with the Rangers and was considered a very good reliever who had closed in the past when he was acquired.

Rauch had 40 saves before the Jays gave him over $7m for 2 years

Francisco Cordero was even signed for $4.5m for a year to be the setup and backup to Santos and had hundreds of saves in his career with the Reds to date.

So that's 4 guys with closer experience, at least a season of good performance in the role (and in some cases more) and most of them (basically everyone but Rauch) being big flame-throwing strikeout guys too. And look where it got them.

None of that wasn't "bargain bin". That was doing what everyone clambers for teams without a "proven closer" to do: spend on big, enticing arms who have shown they can pitch in the 9th.

also, the salaries they got from the Jays:

Francisco: $4m
Rauch: $2.5m/$2.75m
Santos: $1m/$2.75m/$3.75m
Cordero: $4.5m

So the team spent $21m over 3 years plus trade assets (mostly Napoli, considering Nestor Molina was a shrewd sell-high move) on guys that fit the mould of "proven closers" and got sweet ****-all from it while little unheralded, soft-throwing junk-baller Janssen took the role and ran with it.

 

[Woodman19]

The Jays are apparently very interested in signing Robertson and Gregerson.

 

[Anthrax442]

Kevin Gregg too

 

[trellaine201]

and greg zaun

 

[King Mapes]

I heard Robertson was offered 3 years 39 mill by someone.

No thanks..

 

[dredeye]

I heard Robertson was offered 3 years 39 mill by someone.

No thanks..

That may be out offer

 

[dredeye]

The Jays are apparently very interested in signing Robertson and Gregerson.

The Robertson rumours that won't go away really surprise me.

 

[Woodman19]

The Robertson rumours that won't go away really surprise me.

In fairness, it keeps coming from the nypost and not from the usual baseball sources.

 

[Puckstuff]

The Jays are apparently very interested in signing Robertson and Gregerson.

I guess we can cross these two of the list then

 

[trellaine201]

Ya I always thought AA didn't believe in paying big money and term for Relief pitchers? He does like hard throwers though. Robertson strikes out a lot.

 

[BertCorbeau]

I remember BJ Ryan being the last big name close the Jays signed .....

 

[trellaine201]

Omg ya. Wow didn't realize he was dominant his first year with the Jays. Didn't he have arm troubles after that? His numbers looked pretty decent.

 

[p.l.f.]

Ah the winter meetings......

 

[hockeywiz542]

According to the New York Post, the Toronto Blue Jays “love†closer David Robertson and have engaged in dialogue with Robertson’s agent Scott Leventhal. Even some Toronto officials are skeptical that the club ultimately will land the Yankees’ closer of 2014, and the club also is very high on accomplished free-agent setup man Luke Gregerson.

http://nypost.com/2014/12/06/yankees-on-alert-as-jays-love-robertson-giants-after-headley/

The Blue Jays “love†closer David Robertson, according to one industry source, and have engaged in dialogue with Robertson’s agent Scott Leventhal.

After finishing one game behind the Yankees in 2014, Toronto has joined Boston as the most active American League East teams to date this offseason. Already, as baseball officials arrive in San Diego on Sunday for the Winter Meetings, the Jays have signed former Yankees catcher Russell Martin to a five-year, $82-million contract and acquired third baseman Josh Donaldson (from Oakland) and outfielder Michael Saunders (from Seattle) in trades.

“Toronto and Boston have made some big moves, no doubt about it,†Yankees general manager Brian Cashman said Friday. “They’ve improved.â€

Both teams are looking to do far more. Jon Heyman of CBS Sports first reported the Blue Jays’ consideration of Robertson, as Toronto’s bullpen faltered last season. However, whether the Jays will meet Robertson’s asking price of about $50 million over four years remains in question. Even some Toronto officials are skeptical that the club ultimately will land the Yankees’ closer of 2014, and the club also is very high on accomplished free-agent setup man Luke Gregerson.

 

[Puckstuff]

It's too bad Colby Rasmus is such a ****** bag. He may not have made sense for our team earlier in the offseason, but with our current team today he would have been a nice piece to have bat in the bottom third of the order. Do not want him back however... Just thinking to my self that the top 6 spots in the line up are set. Jose, Russel, Joey, Eddie, Josh, sander, then you have the remaing 3 spots. Even if we wanted to keep navarro and bat him 7th we would have to play Edwin at 1B. They seem committed to giving him the ability to DH, and I know they will want to give Reyes and Bautista time at DH; maybe as much as 30 games each. It seems to be a forgone conclusion Navarro is 99 % gone... especially if we keep Dickey (Thole) So we will have Smoak, Travis, Pompey in the bottom third. Pretty risky bottom third of the third order. I'm hoping Travis surprises... Smoak, Travis, Pompey/Pillar... wonder what these guys will do. Reyes WILL get injured. He just isn't a healthy guy. Saunders doesn't have the best track record either... Suddenly you lose 2-3 of the big guys and screwed. This is a marathon and this is part of the reason we haven't made the playoffs in 200 years. Just thinking out loud but should we invest more money into another bat or spend the rest on pitching? I'm hoping AA gets creative.

 

[King Mapes]

Rasmus is his own worst enemy. At one point was considered the next star. But we seem to be adding character guys this offseason so he doesn't fit.

 

[dredeye]

Ah the winter meetings......

A lot of dominoes should start to fall now.

 

[Habsfan18]

@Buster_ESPN: Sources: The Blue Jays' ownership is actively seeking a replacement for longtime CEO Paul Beeston. Dan Duquette among candidates discussed.