Prospect Info: Marlies & Prospects Thread Part VI - Playoff Drive Edition

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StuckOutHere

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Feb 10, 2010
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If either are a better option than Holl or Marincin going into the playoffs, then that's way more important than such things.

Expansion draft makes that a real issue. It's one thing if you think they are substantively better, but I don't think anyone is saying these two guys are THAT much better that it is worth throwing your protection list into disarray. The team has preached that they want to be contenders for years to come. Losing a great player, for nothing, for a, let's say, 5% improvement of your third pair is not taking the longview. I understand flags fly forever, but I don't know if this is a smart play.
 
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Dr Quincy

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I wonder if we look at a guy like Adam Fox. Isn't he on his final season before he becomes a free agent? With the depth that Carolina has at RD I wonder if he'd be more inclined to go to free agency and pick a better landing spot for himself.

Isn't Dante Fabbro in a similar situation with the Preds?

Are there any other similarly touted prospects that we might be able to poach?
Neither are free agents this year. Both are JRs.
 

Nithoniniel

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If either are a better option than Holl or Marincin going into the playoffs, then that's way more important than such things.
Smartest thing we could do is probably to get them up right towards the end of the season. Give them 7-8 games to get into the NHL, they don't hit the 9 game requisite, and we have them for the playoffs.
 

Grapes1

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Jul 24, 2014
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Smartest thing we could do is probably to get them up right towards the end of the season. Give them 7-8 games to get into the NHL, they don't hit the 9 game requisite, and we have them for the playoffs.

Playoff games don’t count towards the 9 game requisite ?
 

SeaOfBlue

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Doesn’t Fox become a UFA if he doesn’t sign before the draft? Blake Wheeler, Justin Schultz, ands few others did that.

Wheeler did it 4 years after he was drafted. It's only been 3 for Fox. So even under the old rules, he wouldn't be able to leave early.

Even then, I think it was his choice to leave early and sign elsewhere. I'm not so sure you have that option anymore, with the new CBA. It seems like the rules for NCAA prospects is your team keeps your rights until you graduate, or you sign with them. I have not seen another case like Wheeler since then, or at least since the new CBA. Probably changed it for that exact reason.
 

Dreakmur

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Wheeler did it 4 years after he was drafted. It's only been 3 for Fox. So even under the old rules, he wouldn't be able to leave early.

Even then, I think it was his choice to leave early and sign elsewhere. I'm not so sure you have that option anymore, with the new CBA. It seems like the rules for NCAA prospects is your team keeps your rights until you graduate, or you sign with them. I have not seen another case like Wheeler since then, or at least since the new CBA. Probably changed it for that exact reason.

I seem to remember Calgary only traded him because they were worried that he wouldn't sign and they would just lose him for nothing anyway. Maybe I miss-read that.
 

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I have always maintained that I do not expect TML to have a reasonable chance at the cup until these two are starting on 4 - 6D duty. With our current streak of injuries, I was wondering where people feel these kids are at? Do we see either of them up this year? Would Babs want to play them? How about next year when Gards is likely off the book?

Mods merged me: kids refer to Lilj. and Sandin
 
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TheBeastCoast

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Neither of them are coming up this year....even if they were ready we need them to be exempt from the expansion draft. Liljegren I could see getting some time next year and Sandin will probably spend all of next season playing as the 1D for the Marlies.
 
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namttebih

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It's a shame that Rosen is injured right now. I'd love to see him on that bottom pairing. When is expected back?
 

biotk

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I have always maintained that I do not expect TML to have a reasonable chance at the cup until these two are starting on 4 - 6D duty. With our current streak of injuries, I was wondering where people feel these kids are at? Do we see either of them up this year? Would Babs want to play them? How about next year when Gards is likely off the book?

I haven't watched them play this year (after the pre-season), but had watched Liljegren play in the AHL last year many times. I was impressed with his development but was disappointed with his production. I had said in the summer that while production isn't everything, it is something and if Liljegren's production didn't go up substantially I would have to change my evaluation about him. It hasn't.

On the one hand, the D who were drafted immediately before and after him have played at least some games in the NHL this year (with Valimaki, 16OA playing 22 games and Vaakanainen 18OA playing 2 games) and Jokiharju who was drafted 29th has played 38 games so, based on that alone, he should be getting close.

However he is one of (at least) 8 D from his draft year to play in the AHL this year and Sandin from the following draft year is also playing. If you asked me before the season started where Liljegren would rank among those 9 in points per game, I would have said easily top 3. He is 9th out of 9.

For the 9 playing the AHL their points pace per 82 games: Jokiharju (29OA) would be at 76 points (sure he has only played 13 games, but has managed 50% more points than Liljegren has in 26 games. He has played 38 games in the NHL), Valimaki (16OA) 62 (has only played 12 games, but has more points than Liljegren has despite the latter playing more than twice as many games. He has played 22 games in the NHL), Brannstrom (15OA) 55, Hague (34OA) 36, Sandin (29OA 2018) 35, Vaakanainen (18OA) 32, Foote (14OA) 30, Fleury (87OA) 27, Liljegren (17OA) 25 (worse than last year's 32/82 pace).

As a comparison Dahlin already has 37 points in 64 games in the NHL, and Heiskanen already has 27 in 64. I thought that Heiskanen would be a great all around D, but I expected Liljegren to be the better offensive D. This season Heiskanen has more points in the NHL in fewer games than Liljegren has in the AHL over two seasons (25 points in 70 AHL games).

It may be that Liljegren's game is more suited to the NHL, and, as I have already said, I haven't watched him this year since the pre-season, but I have concerns. It feels to me that at best he will be a third pairing, second pairing injury option, who is strong at controlled exits, but who doesn't have quickness or deceptiveness to put up points.

I have also never thought that Babs would be a fan of Liljegren's game. I know that Dubas has said that before the injury he had hoped that Liljegren would get a try out in the NHL this year. And I think that he deserves a stint to see how his game translastes, but I don't see him as a regular next year. I doubt Sandin will be a regular next year either, but it seems he will be ahead of Liljegren.
 
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baton elevated

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Jun 4, 2009
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I haven't watched them play this year (after the pre-season), but had watched Liljegren play in the AHL last year many times. I was impressed with his development but was disappointed with his production. I had said in the summer that while production isn't everything, it is something and if Liljegren's production didn't go up substantially I would have to change my evaluation about him. It hasn't.

On the one hand, the D who were drafted immediately before and after him have played at least some games in the NHL this year (with Valimaki, 16OA playing 22 games and Vaakanainen 18OA playing 2 games) and Jokiharju who was drafted 29th has played 38 games so, based on that alone, he should be getting close.

However he is one of (at least) 8 D from his draft year to play in the AHL this year and Sandin from the following draft year is also playing. If you asked me before the season started where Liljegren would rank among those 9 in points per game, I would have said easily top 3. He is 9th out of 9.

For the 9 playing the AHL their points pace per 82 games: Jokiharju (29OA) would be at 76 points (sure he has only played 13 games, but has managed 50% more points than Liljegren has in 26 games. He has played 38 games in the NHL), Valimaki (16OA) 62 (has only played 12 games, but has more points than Liljegren has despite the latter playing more than twice as many games. He has played 22 games in the NHL), Brannstrom (15OA) 55, Hague (34OA) 36, Sandin (29OA 2018) 35, Vaakanainen (18OA) 32, Foote (14OA) 30, Fleury (87OA) 27, Liljegren (17OA) 25 (worse than last year's 32/82 pace).

As a comparison Dahlin already has 37 points in 64 games in the NHL, and Heiskanen already has 27 in 64. I thought that Heiskanen would be a great all around D, but I expected Liljegren to be the better offensive D. This season Heiskanen has more points in the NHL in fewer games than Liljegren has in the AHL over two seasons (25 points in 70 AHL games).

It may be that Liljegren's game is more suited to the NHL, and, as I have already said, I haven't watched him this year since the pre-season, but I have concerns. It feels to me that at best he will be a third pairing, second pairing injury option, who is strong at controlled exits, but who doesn't have quickness or deceptiveness to put up points.

I have also never thought that Babs would be a fan of Liljegren's game. I know that Dubas has said that before the injury he had hoped that Liljegren would get a try out in the NHL this year. And I think that he deserves a stint to see how his game translastes, but I don't see him as a regular next year. I doubt Sandin will be a regular next year either, but it seems he will be ahead of Liljegren.
I too am left unimpressed with Lily so far. I'm waiting for more consistency and flair . He was billed as this dynamo of a player but it hasn't translated yet. he is also very injury prone and it's not like he is a waif of a player. he has descent size .
I was ecstatic when we chose him as he was the player along with Valimaki that i wanted the most.
We will have to wait awhile longer.
 

stickty111

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Jan 23, 2017
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I haven't watched them play this year (after the pre-season), but had watched Liljegren play in the AHL last year many times. I was impressed with his development but was disappointed with his production. I had said in the summer that while production isn't everything, it is something and if Liljegren's production didn't go up substantially I would have to change my evaluation about him. It hasn't.

On the one hand, the D who were drafted immediately before and after him have played at least some games in the NHL this year (with Valimaki, 16OA playing 22 games and Vaakanainen 18OA playing 2 games) and Jokiharju who was drafted 29th has played 38 games so, based on that alone, he should be getting close.

However he is one of (at least) 8 D from his draft year to play in the AHL this year and Sandin from the following draft year is also playing. If you asked me before the season started where Liljegren would rank among those 9 in points per game, I would have said easily top 3. He is 9th out of 9.

For the 9 playing the AHL their points pace per 82 games: Jokiharju (29OA) would be at 76 points (sure he has only played 13 games, but has managed 50% more points than Liljegren has in 26 games. He has played 38 games in the NHL), Valimaki (16OA) 62 (has only played 12 games, but has more points than Liljegren has despite the latter playing more than twice as many games. He has played 22 games in the NHL), Brannstrom (15OA) 55, Hague (34OA) 36, Sandin (29OA 2018) 35, Vaakanainen (18OA) 32, Foote (14OA) 30, Fleury (87OA) 27, Liljegren (17OA) 25 (worse than last year's 32/82 pace).

As a comparison Dahlin already has 37 points in 64 games in the NHL, and Heiskanen already has 27 in 64. I thought that Heiskanen would be a great all around D, but I expected Liljegren to be the better offensive D. This season Heiskanen has more points in the NHL in fewer games than Liljegren has in the AHL over two seasons (25 points in 70 AHL games).

It may be that Liljegren's game is more suited to the NHL, and, as I have already said, I haven't watched him this year since the pre-season, but I have concerns. It feels to me that at best he will be a third pairing, second pairing injury option, who is strong at controlled exits, but who doesn't have quickness or deceptiveness to put up points.

I have also never thought that Babs would be a fan of Liljegren's game. I know that Dubas has said that before the injury he had hoped that Liljegren would get a try out in the NHL this year. And I think that he deserves a stint to see how his game translastes, but I don't see him as a regular next year. I doubt Sandin will be a regular next year either, but it seems he will be ahead of Liljegren.
The production is not there, but his play has been solid.
He is also better defensively then he gets credit for, and doesn't get schooled in that area.
Here are the stats among regular d man.
CF/60: 59.00(1st)
CA/60: 44.8(3rd)
CF%: 56.8(2nd)
CF%Rel: 1.5(1st)
OZS%: 36.8(2nd lowest)

Lilly is generating offense, and has been reliable in his own zone as well, while playing some of the toughest minutes on the team.
 
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Its not your fault

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Nov 24, 2016
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Sandin is ready. So is Liljegren. They've been that good with the Marlies. Sandin just played a ~30 minute game the other day and Liljegren has been playing a lot as well.

With that said, it's probably better for them to play top end minutes with the Marlies. The Leafs have depth players for a reason and they need to play.
Play em, let Lil Sand Baste Trade depth repeat. Get a couple mid round draft picks. I like how you think I hope they do this as well.
 

Nithoniniel

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I think there needs to be a correction in expectation for Liljegren, not in terms of how good he can become but what kind of player he'll be. The skill that made people think he would be a dynamic offensive d-man has instead taken the shape of terrific, confident plays to elude pressure and move the puck well. I don't think he'll be more than a decent PP2 option as an NHLer, and as such his scoring upside is limited, but I do think he'll become a top four guy at even strength. Perhaps not as strong as a Dermott or Sandin, but good enough.
 

usernamezrhardtodo

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Mar 26, 2014
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I seem to remember Calgary only traded him because they were worried that he wouldn't sign and they would just lose him for nothing anyway. Maybe I miss-read that.

I think you are correct. I read that Calgary traded him because they thought he wouldn't sign with them and lose him for nothing. I read an article a few year back when we were hoping to get Jimmy Vessey and the article said a lot of players coming out as defensive players look more at the situation of who is ahead of them on the depth chart than anything else. We have a pretty thin R-D situation so it might be enticing for them to sign here. The money they get is the same no matter where they go. The only issue I can see is that they may NOT want to sign here is it looks like there will be a battle to get any kind of money coming off their ELC. If the Leafs are paying huge $$ to the high end guys...there is not a lot left for the middle class of players. That would be my main concern going forward. Will Butcher is another guy who signed with the Devils and is doing quite well. Too bad we couldn't get him.
 

stickty111

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Jan 23, 2017
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I think there needs to be a correction in expectation for Liljegren, not in terms of how good he can become but what kind of player he'll be. The skill that made people think he would be a dynamic offensive d-man has instead taken the shape of terrific, confident plays to elude pressure and move the puck well. I don't think he'll be more than a decent PP2 option as an NHLer, and as such his scoring upside is limited, but I do think he'll become a top four guy at even strength. Perhaps not as strong as a Dermott or Sandin, but good enough.
I agree with this analysis.
 
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