Markham, Ontario planning to build a 19,000 seat arena

[powerstuck]

The 90% number is kind of deceiving. The town is being asked to put forward $162.5 million, or 50% of the cost, towards construction. An additional 40% will be paid back over 20 years with a new development surcharge ($2,000/condo, $5,000 per single detached house, $4,000 per town homes outside of the immediate area, $4,500/condo and $6,500/town home within a certain proximately to the arena), parking revenues, a ticket surcharge, and an annual lease payment from Roustan's group.

So basicly it's just a wording. Here in Quebec they are expecting the new arena to revitalize the surrounding by quite a bit. There are even talks of a possible 5* hotel to be build across the street.

By those terms, we can say that 400M that Quebec (the city) and the Province are lending will come back in increases tax income for that sector for the next 20 years.

I tought It could not be pure cash from private investors. I understand the new homes charge, but that does end up being paid by potential buyers twice.

First, you will buy a 100k house (random number) but it will cost you 105k because of the surcharge, meaning the city will charge you taxes on value which would be 105k.

 

[Semantics]

If Makrham some how manages to get this arena deal done hopes of bringing a NHL. team there are slim to none & at best they will ethier get the marlies to play there or they will get an ECHL. team to play there . Besides Quebec City & Hamilton are the only cities left in Canada that are viable to be home to an NHL. franchise & a 2nd NHL. team in the GTA. (Markham) was deemed not viable acordding to the confrence board of canada .

Did you miss this quote two posts before yours?

While councillors are still under confidentiality agreements not to talk about anything NHL-related, [Regional Councillor] Mr. Jones alluded that part of the intent to build an NHL-sized arena in Markham Centre is, in fact, to bring an NHL team to Markham.

“None of us are that stupid to build a 20,000-seat arena to just do what Kansas City does,” he said of the Sprint Center, a NHL-ready arena without a professional sports team.

If the project goes ahead that will mean there's a done deal behind the scenes to bring a team there. 100%. Nobody, especially in the current political and economic climate, is insane enough to spend a third of a billion dollars and "hope" they might not lose half of it. There is absolutely zero chance of that, especially if it involves taxpayer dollars. Even if you WERE crazy enough to want to do so, you likely would have trouble securing financing for the project. Make NO mistake: there is already an agreement in place to bring a team to Markham. There is no hoping, there is no question of viability, it's absolutely 100% a deal that is either done or in the final stages. If the deal falls through, the arena will not be built, simple as that, if the arena is built you can take it to the bank there will be an NHL team there when it opens. This should be completely obvious as it's basic common sense, even without the confirmation from the councillor.

 

[CGG]

First, you will buy a 100k house (random number) but it will cost you 105k because of the surcharge, meaning the city will charge you taxes on value which would be 105k.

I understand it's just an example, but (1) you can't buy anything anywhere in Markham for less than about $300,000, not even a tiny townhome, and (2) the price you pay for a house isn't really the same as the value you are taxed at, in fact it should be irrelevant since the bureaucracy at MPAC are in charge of valuating everyone's home in the entire province. An additional $5k built in to the original pre-contract price isn't going to make a difference in the "market value" as determined by MPAC.

 

[CGG]

Hamilton never had to worry about competing with an arena of comparable size in it's backyard. But it's not really the same situation. Hamilton paid a lot less and has a much bigger population and it wasn't counting on possible economic development to pay down the debt.

The Town of Markham has to pay out an amount similar to what Glendale had to pay out. Glendale had all sorts of promises that everything will be paid off from the surrounding economic development, parking revenue and ticket surcharges. The Job is a much bigger and newer arena than the US Airways Arena in downtown Phoenix.

Grandiose plans have a habit of failing to come to fruition. If these plans fail to come to fruition, Markham is screwed. Add to the fact that the arena is competing against the 11th busiest arena that's located downtown in a major city.

No matter how you slice it, what happened to Glendale should be a cautionary tale for EVERY community. You can't look at that city and say "It can't happen here." because it can. There is nothing special or privileged about Markham. It can just as easily collapse into it's own financial black hole of it's own making as much as any other community...

Again though, some big differences between the two municipalities.

• Median income for a household in Glendale is $45,015, in Markham it is $79,924.

• Both were/are counting on the arena to spur development, however development in Glendale was based around a mall. Markham is building a high density area that is already being developed, in accordance with provincial regulations to limit sprawl. The development charge will also be applied city-wide, as opposed to being restricted to the area surrounding the arena alone.

• The Toronto area is both larger and more wealthy than Phoenix.

• Rudy Bratty has done business for years in Markham, he's a billionaire, and he heads one of the largest development companies in Canada. He and his arena group have also volunteered to fund half the cost of the arena construction. Stark contrast to Steve Ellman.

• The Town of Markham has no outstanding debt. Glendale is pushing $1 billion.

• The Markham proposal makes no mention of a professional tenant, rather concerts and other events seem to be the primary source of revenue. The opposite is the case in Glendale.

I think there's two additional differences to point out here between Markham and Glendale:

(1) Hockey is already popular in the Markham (and greater Toronto) area, that certainly wasn't ever the case in Phoenix.

(2) The pay back is coming from developer fees to build new homes. These new homes are not at all dependent on the success of the arena - they will get built regardless. It will take roughly 200 homes per million dollars of government investment to get the money back. That's a decent week in Markham, in terms of new home building.

Sure that could change, but with the amount of immigration flocking to the GTA, and a complete lack of land in Toronto proper, the northern suburbs are expanding like wildfire. This isn't a hair-brained scheme to try to build up a retail area dependent on hockey fans stopping off for a few cold ones on the way home from a game in Glendale. The houses will come, and in fact already are on the way.

The area around the arena location has another big thing going for it - a Go Train stop, direct rail access to Union Station. That may or may not be fully utililized for arena traffic, but it virtually guarantees demand for homes in the area.

I'll throw in a 3rd major difference - corporate support. The 404 corridor is literally littered with office buildings, from Steeles up to Major Mackenzie. Canada's head office for IBM is about 2km from the site. There will be lots of corporate types within a few blocks of the arena, making for an easy commute after work for a 7pm game.

The only thing I don't like about the idea is that the arena is largely dependent on the 407 for transportation. Great highway, very convenient for arena goers, but very expensive, and most people avoid it like the plague. Streets like Warden, Kennedy, 14th Ave and Highway 7 really can't handle the traffic as-is, but with 17,000+ trying to get to and from an event, it will be chaos.

 

[Hamilton Tigers]

Did you miss this quote two posts before yours?



If the project goes ahead that will mean there's a done deal behind the scenes to bring a team there. 100%. Nobody, especially in the current political and economic climate, is insane enough to spend a third of a billion dollars and "hope" they might not lose half of it. There is absolutely zero chance of that, especially if it involves taxpayer dollars. Even if you WERE crazy enough to want to do so, you likely would have trouble securing financing for the project. Make NO mistake: there is already an agreement in place to bring a team to Markham. There is no hoping, there is no question of viability, it's absolutely 100% a deal that is either done or in the final stages. If the deal falls through, the arena will not be built, simple as that, if the arena is built you can take it to the bank there will be an NHL team there when it opens. This should be completely obvious as it's basic common sense, even without the confirmation from the councillor.

Makes pefect sense. However, as a Hamiltonian, I choose denial.

(or subscribe to the cult of Killion and aqib in the belief (you guys do believe, don't you?) that two southern Ontario teams will end up in Markham and Hamilton. Pass the kool aid please )

 

[Confucius]

Makes pefect sense. However, as a Hamiltonian, I choose denial.

(or subscribe to the cult of Killion and aqib in the belief (you guys do believe, don't you?) that two southern Ontario teams will end up in Markham and Hamilton. Pass the kool aid please )

Three problems with Hamilton getting a team
they will have to payoff Toronto
they will have to payoff Buffalo
they will have to payoff Markham
but other than that sure why not.

 

[Killion]

If the project goes ahead that will mean there's a done deal behind the scenes to bring a team there. 100%. Nobody, especially in the current political and economic climate, is insane enough to spend a third of a billion dollars and "hope" they might not lose half of it. There is absolutely zero chance of that, especially if it involves taxpayer dollars. Even if you WERE crazy enough to want to do so, you likely would have trouble securing financing for the project. Make NO mistake: there is already an agreement in place to bring a team to Markham. There is no hoping, there is no question of viability, it's absolutely 100% a deal that is either done or in the final stages. If the deal falls through, the arena will not be built, simple as that, if the arena is built you can take it to the bank there will be an NHL team there when it opens.

Well said. Many will claim its nothing more than another Field of Dreams, and they'd be much mistaken. Like you, I dont believe so, and also like you, Id be being willing to bet dollars to donuts that its happening, heavy lifting going on behind the scenes. Markham an absolute lock for a team in 2015. It remains to be seen if their planning a triumvirate with a team in Hamilton. With the big guns rolling into that town all bidding on the facility management & development contracts, I also happen to believe that they too will likely see the fulfillment of their dreams in the very near future.

 

[powerstuck]

I understand it's just an example, but (1) you can't buy anything anywhere in Markham for less than about $300,000, not even a tiny townhome, and (2) the price you pay for a house isn't really the same as the value you are taxed at, in fact it should be irrelevant since the bureaucracy at MPAC are in charge of valuating everyone's home in the entire province. An additional $5k built in to the original pre-contract price isn't going to make a difference in the "market value" as determined by MPAC.

Thanks for the explications but I think you understood what I was trying to say.

To say the arena is PRIVATELY funded is a joke. The city could use the 2500/5000$ fee or tax and say we will build a hospital there, any new home in 50km radius will cost 2500 for condos and 5000 for houses in ''tax''. You know, the 400M City and Province of Quebec are putting each in our Colisée, it's privately funded too, I'm a private party and my taxes just rose 1% because of it.

PS : Can you buy a home anywhere for 100k ? Maybe 100 km north of North Pole but no anywhere near where I live.

 

[Killion]

Three problems with Hamilton getting a team

they will have to payoff Toronto
they will have to payoff Buffalo
they will have to payoff Markham

but other than that sure why not.

...oh boy, now ya gone n' done it. Seems to me Markham should be applying its development & tax levy's to every resident in Scarborough to help expedite the purchase price of that new building thats gonna sit glistening not 15 minutes away S&S... now, I realize that as your a Scarberian, your idea of entertainment is taking the Missus' to the local DQ on Kingston Road & driving around in circles. An evening in the backyard with a 6 pack and a bug zapper while still fishing in your above ground pool... and catching something. But no, here I think you should contribute. You owe it to the very welfare of the community my friend.

 

[htpwn]

I'll throw in a 3rd major difference - corporate support. The 404 corridor is literally littered with office buildings, from Steeles up to Major Mackenzie. Canada's head office for IBM is about 2km from the site. There will be lots of corporate types within a few blocks of the arena, making for an easy commute after work for a 7pm game.

Further on that point, from the arena presentation:

PS : Can you buy a home anywhere for 100k ? Maybe 100 km north of North Pole but no anywhere near where I live.

Detroit?

 

[Killion]

Makes pefect sense. However, as a Hamiltonian, I choose denial....

Could be worse, you could live over on the east side, like way east. Wind up getting shot over a parking spot at Scarborough Town Center. Spend enough time out there & like S&S, you'll start referring to everything outside of Scarborough as "over yonder". Poor guy feinted when he met Geddy Lee at Sunrise Records Warehouse Clearance Outlet on Gordon Baker Road one Saturday morning signing copies of Snakes & Arrows ...

 

[aqib]

Makes pefect sense. However, as a Hamiltonian, I choose denial.

(or subscribe to the cult of Killion and aqib in the belief (you guys do believe, don't you?) that two southern Ontario teams will end up in Markham and Hamilton. Pass the kool aid please )

Sugar free or regular?

 

[Confucius]

...oh boy, now ya gone n' done it. Seems to me Markham should be applying its development & tax levy's to every resident in Scarborough to help expedite the purchase price of that new building thats gonna sit glistening not 15 minutes away S&S... now, I realize that as your a Scarberian, your idea of entertainment is taking the Missus' to the local DQ on Kingston Road & driving around in circles. An evening in the backyard with a 6 pack and a bug zapper while still fishing in your above ground pool... and catching something. But no, here I think you should contribute. You owe it to the very welfare of the community my friend.

Yep yep yep when people see they are wrong.....again, they often lashout. Carry on

 

[JMROWE]

Did you miss this quote two posts before yours?



If the project goes ahead that will mean there's a done deal behind the scenes to bring a team there. 100%. Nobody, especially in the current political and economic climate, is insane enough to spend a third of a billion dollars and "hope" they might not lose half of it. There is absolutely zero chance of that, especially if it involves taxpayer dollars. Even if you WERE crazy enough to want to do so, you likely would have trouble securing financing for the project. Make NO mistake: there is already an agreement in place to bring a team to Markham. There is no hoping, there is no question of viability, it's absolutely 100% a deal that is either done or in the final stages. If the deal falls through, the arena will not be built, simple as that, if the arena is built you can take it to the bank there will be an NHL team there when it opens. This should be completely obvious as it's basic common sense, even without the confirmation from the councillor.

There is no way that Markham has an garenteed shot at getting an NHL. if there so called arena gets bulit first of all MLSE. will do everything in there power to stop an NHL. team from takking root there plus if by some off chance they do get an NHL. team MLSE. will make them pay threw nose to give up there teritory & I am talking around 150 - 250 million on top of what a team cost which is around 350 - 400 million for an expansion team & 250 - 350 for a relocation so it ain't happening because no one in there right mind would pay 400 - 600 million for a relocation or 500 - 700 million for expansion team even in canada (please note that I did not include the cost of the arena) which if I did the cost will be over a billion .

 

[Melrose Munch]

There is no way that Markham has an garenteed shot at getting an NHL. if there so called arena gets bulit first of all MLSE. will do everything in there power to stop an NHL. team from takking root there plus if by some off chance they do get an NHL. team MLSE. will make them pay threw nose to give up there teritory & I am talking around 150 - 250 million on top of what a team cost which is around 350 - 400 million for an expansion team & 250 - 350 for a relocation so it ain't happening because no one in there right mind would pay 400 - 600 million for a relocation or 500 - 700 million for expansion team even in canada (please note that I did not include the cost of the arena) which if I did the cost will be over a billion .

So you're telling me MLSE will prefer Hamilton which is a bigger Market and will take away MORE fans, You're full of smoke.

 

[JMROWE]

When Katz Group & AEG. take over Copps Coliseum don't be surprised if there is a deal already done to bring an NHL. team to Hamilton within the next 3 years & already have the blessing of MLSE. because we all know that MLSE. will do anything to stop another NHL. team from playing in there yard & if that means supporting an NHL. team in Hamilton so be it because an NHL. team in Hamilton will not effect there bottom line in its other non hockey business intrests its classic case of go with the devil you know rather than the one you don't .

 

[JMROWE]

So you're telling me MLSE will prefer Hamilton which is a bigger Market and will take away MORE fans, You're full of smoke.

You must of missunderstood what I said what I said is MLSE. would rather have a team in Hamilton over Markham because it far enough away that it won't effect there bottom line in its hockey & non hockey events at the ACC. .

 

[knorthern knight]

The thing with the Skydome was that it was unprecedented. No one had built a retractable dome before. Unless there is something unique about this one it should fall in line with the other arenas going up right about now

??? wrong wrong wrong http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Retractable_roof#History There was over a quarter of a century of engineering expertise in retractable roof sports venues when Skydome was built.

The first retractable roof sports venue was the now-closed Civic Arena in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, United States. Constructed in 1961 for the Pittsburgh Civic Light Opera, the arena was home to minor-league and NCAA D-1 basketball and ice hockey teams before becoming the home of the NHL's Pittsburgh Penguins in 1967, as well as hosting over a dozen regular season NBA games in the 1960s and 1970's. The arena's dome-shaped roof covered 170,000 square feet (16,000 m2) and is made up of 8 equal segments constructed from close to 3,000 tons of steel, in which six segments can retract underneath the remaining two, supported by an 260-foot (79 m) long exterior cantilevered arm. [1]

Olympic Stadium in Montreal, Quebec was slated to be the first outdoor retractable roof stadium at its debut for the 1976 Summer Olympic Games. However, plagued by construction problems, the roof was not installed until 1987, and was not retractable until 1988. Even then, movement of the roof was impossible in high wind conditions, and technical problems plagued the facility. A permanent, fixed roof was installed in 1998. By contrast, the Rogers Centre (formerly known as SkyDome) in Toronto, Ontario had a fully functional retractable roof at its debut in 1989.

Megaprojects always come in well above the original projections. I don't know if it's incompetence, or malicious underestimation by politicians/developers who fear that the projects wouldn't be approved if their real cost was known.

And before anyone trots out American "indirect benefits" statistics, they are totally irrelavant for municipal governments here in Canada. In Canada, municipalities (cities/towns/villages/whatever) do NOT get to charge sales taxes or income taxes. No revenue stream there. Only federal+provincial/territorial governments can do so. Municipalities only get to charge property taxes and various regulatory fees, e.g. development fees for running sewers/etc to building lots. And many of those fees are regulated by the province. Markham doesn't really have the authority to slap extra fees on nearby houses/condos (they can raise the overall tax rate, but that affects the entire town). That's why they're trying to extract "voluntary contributions" from other developers.

 

[theaub]

There is no way that Markham has an garenteed shot at getting an NHL. if there so called arena gets bulit first of all MLSE. will do everything in there power to stop an NHL. team from takking root there plus if by some off chance they do get an NHL. team MLSE. will make them pay threw nose to give up there teritory & I am talking around 150 - 250 million on top of what a team cost which is around 350 - 400 million for an expansion team & 250 - 350 for a relocation so it ain't happening because no one in there right mind would pay 400 - 600 million for a relocation or 500 - 700 million for expansion team even in canada (please note that I did not include the cost of the arena) which if I did the cost will be over a billion .

I for one am glad that you have provided an argument backed up with proof.

 

[knorthern knight]

http://www.yorkregion.com/news/article/1340459--update-expedite-rink-for-world-juniors-roustan

While councillors are still under confidentiality agreements not to talk about anything NHL-related, [Regional Councillor] Mr. Jones alluded that part of the intent to build an NHL-sized arena in Markham Centre is, in fact, to bring an NHL team to Markham.

“None of us are that stupid to build a 20,000-seat arena to just do what Kansas City does,†he said of the Sprint Center, a NHL-ready arena without a professional sports team.

Get serious folks. Copps Coliseum was built in hopes of an NHL franchise. It did not come. There is no bleeping way Gary Bettman would make such a guarantee.

 

[Melrose Munch]

You must of missunderstood what I said what I said is MLSE. would rather have a team in Hamilton over Markham because it far enough away that it won't effect there bottom line in its hockey & non hockey events at the ACC. .

That shipped has already saled. Copps despite its state get events which skip the ACC.

And if we get a team, where the money coming from to replace the arena 10 yrs.

 

[Melrose Munch]

Katz just wants Copps as a threat for the Oilers. Will he move them out here? Probably not.

 

[aqib]

??? wrong wrong wrong http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Retractable_roof#History There was over a quarter of a century of engineering expertise in retractable roof sports venues when Skydome was built.
Megaprojects always come in well above the original projections. I don't know if it's incompetence, or malicious underestimation by politicians/developers who fear that the projects wouldn't be approved if their real cost was known.

And before anyone trots out American "indirect benefits" statistics, they are totally irrelavant for municipal governments here in Canada. In Canada, municipalities (cities/towns/villages/whatever) do NOT get to charge sales taxes or income taxes. No revenue stream there. Only federal+provincial/territorial governments can do so. Municipalities only get to charge property taxes and various regulatory fees, e.g. development fees for running sewers/etc to building lots. And many of those fees are regulated by the province. Markham doesn't really have the authority to slap extra fees on nearby houses/condos (they can raise the overall tax rate, but that affects the entire town). That's why they're trying to extract "voluntary contributions" from other developers.

I forgot about Mellon arena. I never counted Olympic Stadium in Montreal because it was a totally different technology. That one was more of a clam shell than what Skydome has.

But my original point is the same. Skydome was still using new (for the time) technology whereas NBA/NHL arenas are more standardized so the arena itself (not including the other developments around it) will come in around the same range as other arenas going up now, and those costs are fairly predictable.

 

[Melrose Munch]

kk has a point, especially because look what happened to Copps. And on a personal not I believe Hamilton is a better market and needs this more.

 

[Ryan34222]

There is no bleeping way Gary Bettman would make such a guarantee.

I agree, now maybe GB has mentioned there will be expansion in the near future and to throw your hat in the ring you must have at the very least an arena. Big gamble especially with Copps sitting here as a reminder.