Mark Messier Sucker Punch On Jamie Macoun

[Hobnobs]

October game, his team already with a 3 goal lead in the 2nd period, getting punched in the head multiple times to draw a double roughing minor. Yeah that is a genius move.

Good way to start the season, getting cheapshotted and suckered by Messier.

 

[sr edler]

Buddy his tenure didn't tarnish **** other than people recognized he was an old man not getting it done anymore on a brutal 97-2000 Canucks team.

He sure was old and I sure didn't expect any miracles from him but the guy looked straight out disinterested on the ice in much, or all, of his tenure in Vancouver. I am of the firm belief that Messier only chose to play for the Canucks as a second hand choice, and for the money. He didn't really want to be there.

He was old, but a 36–37 year old Messier in Vancouver scored 60 points in 82 games on a line with a decent player like Pavel Bure. Somehow, back in New York three years later, a 39–40 year old Messier had 67 points in 82 games. What about that? Sure some of it probably had to do with playing on a better team and playing with Leetch again, but some of it probably also had to do with the fact that he cared more.

Bertuzzi, Jovo, and Ohlund also had good things to say about Mess's mentoring.

I like Öhlund but Bert & Jovo were fake tough guys who didn't do much in the playoffs. 'Specially Bert.

 

[GreatGonzo]

Wouldn't surprise me. You more or less loved messier if he was on your team, but hated him if you were playing against him.

He was that guy that would lay out a player with a dirty hit, then score a goal right after. Ultimately winning the game, then the series, then the cup.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

Yeah, Mess wasn't a fighter per se (why would he be when he got 100+ point per year), but he was a scary mofo in the Edmonton years.

He did go toe-to-toe with Roberts (in the video above), and once with McSorley (circa 1990), so it wasn't like he backed down from tough guys. Of course, he also took some liberties against players smaller than him, but horses for courses...

Not to excuse Messier's awful cheap-shots, but there were lots of guys up to the late-80s who did the same (Chelios for example, was one of the worst ever). It was how you got space, since the refs back then allowed players to strangle each other without penalties.

Joel Otto basically owes his career to Messier, since Badger Bob brought him up from US college circa 1985 specifically to counter Messier at center... at which Otto did a heck of a job. Otto was so huge that Messier couldn't physically take him down. (Otto basically did the same vs. Messier for Philly years later.)

Messier did seem to change a bit starting around 1989-90 (his best season) when he fully accepted the mantle and responsibilities as team leader. He was dishing it out less and picking his spots more, and generally was less 'wild'.

(Of course, there's also that awful cheap-shot to Modano in the mid-90s, so...)

Good choice in Chelios.

Players were definitely dirtier in general at that time. But from what I saw, Messier and Chelios were really in a league of their own.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

Several players sent a message to Messier. Messier was a dirty ****. Expert at third man ins. I know Kocur made him run away and hide behind refs. He did that multiple times in fact. Hide behind the refs I mean. If rats are from Canada they get respect for "doing whatever to win".

Al Secord and Eric Lindros were a couple of players that actually tried to engage Messier often. Pretty sure Lindros ragdolled Messier once.

 

[Edmonton East]

He was dirty. Even for his time.

This.

 

[BBB24]

Al Secord and Eric Lindros were a couple of players that actually tried to engage Messier often. Pretty sure Lindros ragdolled Messier once.

I will never forget the game where Messier try to go after Don Sweeny, Neely was on the ice and skated beside Messier all the way to the Oilers bench and you could read Neely's lips "try me, try me, tough guy, try me" Messier couldnt get on the bench fast enough, I cannot remember when I laughed so hard. Messier was tough and a very good player, but he was certainly a spot picker for sure.

 

[The Panther]

I will never forget the game where Messier try to go after Don Sweeny, Neely was on the ice and skated beside Messier all the way to the Oilers bench and you could read Neely's lips "try me, try me, tough guy, try me" Messier couldnt get on the bench fast enough, I cannot remember when I laughed so hard. Messier was tough and a very good player, but he was certainly a spot picker for sure.

He did pick his spots, but I have no memory of this. Besides, in the 1990 Finals (game 2) Craig MacTavish got into it with Neely and made out fine. Messier was a lot tougher than MacTavish, so I think he would have been all right.

Neely may have been the tougher guy, but his record against Messier in the playoffs (in three tries) was 1 win, 11 losses.

 

[Hobnobs]

He did pick his spots, but I have no memory of this. Besides, in the 1990 Finals (game 2) Craig MacTavish got into it with Neely and made out fine. Messier was a lot tougher than MacTavish, so I think he would have been all right.

Neely may have been the tougher guy, but his record against Messier in the playoffs (in three tries) was 1 win, 11 losses.

That is his teams record.

Also find it funny that even now when more people has come into the thread to tell stories about Messiers cowardice you still deny it. Reason? You dont remember, you say. Maybe go back and watch?

 

[The Panther]

Also find it funny that even now when more people has come into the thread to tell stories about Messiers cowardice you still deny it. Reason? You dont remember, you say. Maybe go back and watch?

Well! I stand corrected then! If 3 anonymous fans on the Internet said Messier is a coward, I shall immediately change my view of him, developed over watching him play from 1984(ish) to 2004.

 

[Big Phil]

I will never forget the game where Messier try to go after Don Sweeny, Neely was on the ice and skated beside Messier all the way to the Oilers bench and you could read Neely's lips "try me, try me, tough guy, try me" Messier couldnt get on the bench fast enough, I cannot remember when I laughed so hard. Messier was tough and a very good player, but he was certainly a spot picker for sure.

He also is the 2nd leading scorer in NHL history. He couldn't be fighting every game either. Neely could have grabbed him if wanted to for sure. Both of them go off for 5 minutes I am pretty sure hurts the Oilers more than the Bruins. Joel Otto had years of being able to go after Messier and didn't fight him until 1989. Messier struck a lot of fear into people in the first few years of his career. He had a long memory and players knew this. He wasn't going to do anything that hurt his team but he picked his spots because he wanted to win first, not because he was scared. He fought Marty McSorley 4 times in his career.

Al Secord and Eric Lindros were a couple of players that actually tried to engage Messier often. Pretty sure Lindros ragdolled Messier once.

He and Lindros never fought. I know people marvelled once Lindros came into the league that there was finally someone who would go toe to toe physically with Messier with little fear. I don't think Messier expected that.

He had more than that and more than 30 in your career during the O6 era was basically goon numbers. So he fought alot more than Messier adjusted for era.

According to dropyourgloves.com Howe had 30 fights, not 22, sorry. I know it is hard to believe but that's just how it was. He almost never fought after bashing Lou Fontinato in 1959. He had three fights for some reason in 1965. I have no idea why, maybe he was irritated after being inches from winning the Cup the year before. But either way, Howe didn't fight a lot and 6 times in total in the last 12 years of his career. The Fontinato fight did that. Messier by the same website fought 59 times and most of those were up until the mid 1980s.

 

[Big Phil]

As I've said before, Messier is a lot like players such as Howe or Pronger. They fought more early in their careers and set the tone. Do people think Howe wasn't dirty? My goodness, of course he was. They created space for themselves for a reason. Other players didn't like testing them. How can Chris Pronger have just 31 fights in his NHL career? A guy like that fighting just 31 times? He played 20 years, if someone wanted to fight him he played 30 minutes a game. Say what you want, but we'd all have these guys on our team. Heck, even though he wasn't nearly as dirty I actually preferred the 2005-'10 Ovechkin because he was more of a bull in a china shop and while not a feared fighter certainly could play on the edge.

Granted, there was far less reason to fight Ovechkin, but you can see my point.

To a lesser extent the same went for Scott Stevens. Fought a lot when he was younger, the last half of his career, not so much.

 

[Hobnobs]

According to dropyourgloves.com Howe had 30 fights, not 22, sorry. I know it is hard to believe but that's just how it was. He almost never fought after bashing Lou Fontinato in 1959. He had three fights for some reason in 1965. I have no idea why, maybe he was irritated after being inches from winning the Cup the year before. But either way, Howe didn't fight a lot and 6 times in total in the last 12 years of his career. The Fontinato fight did that. Messier by the same website fought 59 times and most of those were up until the mid 1980s.

What dont you understand? 30-40 (DYG is not completely reliable) fights during the O6 era is a lot. ~3 fights a season is what Howe, Fontinato, Mortson, Baun, Flaman and them averaged.

and for your, "He almost never fought after bashing Lou Fontinato in 1959.". He didnt fight the season prior to that. It had nothing to do with Fontinato beating him bloody. Probably had more to do with getting older.

and yea, Messier had a few huggy the bear fights during his 1st two seasons.

 

[Big Phil]

What dont you understand? 30-40 (DYG is not completely reliable) fights during the O6 era is a lot. ~3 fights a season is what Howe, Fontinato, Mortson, Baun, Flaman and them averaged.

and for your, "He almost never fought after bashing Lou Fontinato in 1959.". He didnt fight the season prior to that. It had nothing to do with Fontinato beating him bloody. Probably had more to do with getting older.

and yea, Messier had a few huggy the bear fights during his 1st two seasons.

Then find the stats and tell a different story then. Howe averaging 3 fights per season puts him at about 75 for his career. All documentation goes back to the 30 fights in his career. Not to mention it even says who he fought (he fought Maurice Richard once in 1948). It is about as accurate as you're going to get. Fights per game was lower than even today let alone the 1980s back then.

You really ought to see what Howe did to Fontinato. Fontinato looked like he was in a car accident and he was considered the heavyweight of the NHL then. People just generally didn't like to disturb Howe as a rule. They didn't like waking Messier up either. Robinson did this with Schultz early in his career too. So did Clark Gillies. It sets the tone. You'd think a guy like Robinson has more than 31 fights in his career but he built up a bit of that "don't wake the big man up" mentality from his opponents as well.

Sure most of them still mellow as they get older but players have a long memory, it isn't as if they forget.

 

[Killion]

Then find the stats and tell a different story then. Howe averaging 3 fights per season puts him at about 75 for his career. All documentation goes back to the 30 fights in his career. Not to mention it even says who he fought (he fought Maurice Richard once in 1948).

22 confirmed fights, article by Joe Pelletier:

Gordie Howe: Hockeys Toughest Player, But Not Hockeys Top Fighter -
www.greatesthockeylegends.com/2012/12/gordie-howe-hockeys-toughest-player-but.html

He wasnt a feared fighter. He was feared because if you ticked him off or took liberties he'd take your # and get even usually behind the play either later on in that game, next month, next year or whenever. Gordie didnt play it like a nice ah gee shucks farm boy like he came across as in interviews & whatnot who wouldnt say $&*@ if his mouth was full of it. Seriously nasty & dirty edge to him. Some people would call that gutless. Sort of thing Clarke & the Flyers, Messier & others employed over the years. Fair fight? Dont think so. Howe however had it down to a fine art. Like a surgeon.

 

[Hobnobs]

22 confirmed fights, article by Joe Pelletier:

Gordie Howe: Hockeys Toughest Player, But Not Hockeys Top Fighter -
www.greatesthockeylegends.com/2012/12/gordie-howe-hockeys-toughest-player-but.html

He wasnt a feared fighter. He was feared because if you ticked him off or took liberties he'd take your # and get even usually behind the play either later on in that game, next month, next year or whenever. Gordie didnt play it like a nice ah gee shucks farm boy like he came across as in interviews & whatnot who wouldnt say $&*@ if his mouth was full of it. Seriously nasty & dirty edge to him. Some people would call that gutless. Sort of thing Clarke & the Flyers, Messier & others employed over the years. Fair fight? Dont think so. Howe however had it down to a fine art. Like a surgeon.

Pelletier is wrong in this one because he only counts fights where both partys gon majors but as you might know back in the O6 they had their own form of instigator rule. The one starting a fight would get a major and the other a minor. Sometimes both would get a minor. Pelletier discounts all these fights.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

He also is the 2nd leading scorer in NHL history. He couldn't be fighting every game either. Neely could have grabbed him if wanted to for sure. Both of them go off for 5 minutes I am pretty sure hurts the Oilers more than the Bruins. Joel Otto had years of being able to go after Messier and didn't fight him until 1989. Messier struck a lot of fear into people in the first few years of his career. He had a long memory and players knew this. He wasn't going to do anything that hurt his team but he picked his spots because he wanted to win first, not because he was scared. He fought Marty McSorley 4 times in his career.



He and Lindros never fought. I know people marvelled once Lindros came into the league that there was finally someone who would go toe to toe physically with Messier with little fear. I don't think Messier expected that.



According to dropyourgloves.com Howe had 30 fights, not 22, sorry. I know it is hard to believe but that's just how it was. He almost never fought after bashing Lou Fontinato in 1959. He had three fights for some reason in 1965. I have no idea why, maybe he was irritated after being inches from winning the Cup the year before. But either way, Howe didn't fight a lot and 6 times in total in the last 12 years of his career. The Fontinato fight did that. Messier by the same website fought 59 times and most of those were up until the mid 1980s.

I didn't say they fought. I said Lindros ragdolled Messier (who didn't drop his gloves).

I was at a game at MSG between Rangers & Lindros Flyers. Lindros pretty much challenged Messier after every whistle. Mess just skated off. Of course, Messier was 34 at the time, Lindros 22. I think Lindros was too dumb to fear Messier. No doubt he would have handled Mess in a fight. But it would cost Lindros down the road (see Scott Stevens).

 

[tjcurrie]

 

[Supreme King]

I didn't say they fought. I said Lindros ragdolled Messier (who didn't drop his gloves).

I was at a game at MSG between Rangers & Lindros Flyers. Lindros pretty much challenged Messier after every whistle. Mess just skated off. Of course, Messier was 34 at the time, Lindros 22. I think Lindros was too dumb to fear Messier. No doubt he would have handled Mess in a fight. But it would cost Lindros down the road (see Scott Stevens).

Many would agree.

Go to 10:07 of the video, watch it and the replay. You be the judge.

 

[Hawksfan2828]

I will never forget the game where Messier try to go after Don Sweeny, Neely was on the ice and skated beside Messier all the way to the Oilers bench and you could read Neely's lips "try me, try me, tough guy, try me" Messier couldnt get on the bench fast enough, I cannot remember when I laughed so hard. Messier was tough and a very good player, but he was certainly a spot picker for sure.

If I was Neely and if the Bruins had a sizable lead I would want to bash Messier too..

 

[Hawksfan2828]

22 confirmed fights, article by Joe Pelletier:

Gordie Howe: Hockeys Toughest Player, But Not Hockeys Top Fighter -
www.greatesthockeylegends.com/2012/12/gordie-howe-hockeys-toughest-player-but.html

He wasnt a feared fighter. He was feared because if you ticked him off or took liberties he'd take your # and get even usually behind the play either later on in that game, next month, next year or whenever. Gordie didnt play it like a nice ah gee shucks farm boy like he came across as in interviews & whatnot who wouldnt say $&*@ if his mouth was full of it. Seriously nasty & dirty edge to him. Some people would call that gutless. Sort of thing Clarke & the Flyers, Messier & others employed over the years. Fair fight? Dont think so. Howe however had it down to a fine art. Like a surgeon.

Gordie Howe seems to have been a "clean" player but was known for giving guys a dose of their own medicine, or played the game with an "eye for an eye" mentality..

You crack him on the ankle, well you're getting cracked on the ankle, but you just don't know when you're going to get it but you know you will and it's going to hurt... Playing like that is good psychological warfare, and of course he knew that...

At least that is the way I interpreted his game from what I have read about him and the dozen or so games I have seen him play (on youtube)....

 

[Baemon Severson*]

Good question. I've read/heard a lot about this one, too, but I can't recall ever seeing it.

The classic vid of Messier awesomeness/nastiness:

Jesus Christ this is a brutal video. Most of those hits are either boards, hits to the head or charging. The one about 3 minutes in where he's playing for Canada was especially brutal. He leaves his feet and launches himself towards the head of the other guy.

Also, holy hell was hockey then unwatchable compared to now. The pace is so much slower and goalies were much, much worse

Edit- Drive by elbows seem to be the norm for Messier. What kind of chicken **** is this?

 

[The Panther]

Also, holy hell was hockey then unwatchable compared to now. The pace is so much slower and goalies were much, much worse

Canucks fan?

But seriously, if you think the guy skating at 5:30 and 5:44 couldn't keep up with today's michelin men...?