Mark Messier Sucker Punch On Jamie Macoun

[danincanada]

Messier was afraid of Robinson?

Messier got special protection from the officials?

Come. On. If anyone spewed that degree of hyperbole in SUPPORT of Messier, there'd be no end of criticism for it.

I don't know why that video has disappeared from the web but Messier sure looked afraid of Robinson to me. Wouldn't surprise me if he had to change his underpants after that exchange.

He was a great player, no doubt, but I view him as more of a Bobby Clarke with muscles than a tough guy. He picked his spots with the best of them.

 

[Sonny Lamateena]

I'm not a Messier fan but a Canucks fan, but in retrospect i kind of like Messier's fiasco tenure in Vancouver simply because it tarnished his image quite a bit.

Sundin had a better impact on the Sedins and Kesler, both leadership & player wise, playing half a season in Vancouver than Messier had on any players in three years.

Yeah, except Näslund who said that Messier was a good mentor or something like that. Says it all really.

I don't know if his image is tarnished anywhere but Vancouver and most of that seems to be based on a lot of myths and half truths.

For example John Davidson reported on his impact in Vancouver...

"Mark Messier isn't going to make the playoffs this season nor did he make them the last three years in Vancouver, but his leadership is evident.

One of the key reasons Vancouver should make the playoffs this season is what Mark did there the last three years. When you talk to players like Markus Naslund, Todd Bertuzzi, Ed Jovanovski, Donald Brashear, they all say they learned how to compete by playing with Messier."

http://espn.go.com/abcsports/columns/davidson_john/2001/0321/1159236.html

and Mark Crawford on the same subject...

"Canucks coach Mark Crawford praised Messier for showing leadership no matter what the distractions were, plus teaching a work ethic and commitment to the younger players.

"His effect will continue with the club," Crawford said, adding the Vancouver team that just failed to make the playoffs last year was a vastly improved group than when Messier signed as a free agent in 1997.

"What he did was reflected just in the day-to-day interaction he had with all the players, how he communicated with them. It showed them how they can best serve themselves. Even through some very tough times in Vancouver he always carried himself as a champion."

Crawford said Messier made everyone he played with better but the team is ready to take the next step without him.

"Our players have benefited from him being around and having that type of impact on each and every player," Crawford said.

http://www.canoe.ca/HockeyVancouverArchive/jul13_can.html

 

[CpatainCanuck]

I don't know if his image is tarnished anywhere but Vancouver and most of that seems to be based on a lot of myths and half truths.

For example John Davidson reported on his impact in Vancouver...
http://espn.go.com/abcsports/columns/davidson_john/2001/0321/1159236.html

and Mark Crawford on the same subject...

http://www.canoe.ca/HockeyVancouverArchive/jul13_can.html

It is a little ironic that you criticize Messier's image in Vancouver as being based on "myths and half truths" and then use fluff interview pieces to back up your argument. As anyone who follows the nhl knows, it is standard to say nice things about a teammate or former teammate no matter what.

Do you actually expect Crawford to come to the podium and say "You know, our Franchise's plan over the last three seasons to build a winning team around Mark Messier was a complete mistake...he turned out to be a ********* and pretty lacklustre on the ice to boot".

And do you really think a half dozen mainly young but established NHL players didn't know how to compete before the arrival of Mark Messier? Are you ****ing kidding me?! I can just imagine the type of leading questions asked that are so standard from nhl reporters: "Hey Markus, with Messier gone can you talk about what he taught you about leadership and the type of compete level needed to be a Champion in the nhl?"

 

[Big Phil]

And do you really think a half dozen mainly young but established NHL players didn't know how to compete before the arrival of Mark Messier? Are you ****ing kidding me?! I can just imagine the type of leading questions asked that are so standard from nhl reporters: "Hey Markus, with Messier gone can you talk about what he taught you about leadership and the type of compete level needed to be a Champion in the nhl?"

Well..............why don't we ask Mario Lemieux about his experiences from the 1987 Canada Cup. You think playing with Gretzky, Messier and Coffey didn't help him learn how to compete and win? Come on, you can't be around that company and have it NOT benefit you.

 

[Big Phil]

Here is an example that is being talked about a lot. I know people think Messier never had to answer for things, but the truth is when did he hide? This was a normal reaction when Messier made a play like this. Look, if someone on the Dallas Stars wanted to drop the mitts with Messier he was right there. Derian Hatcher of all people is on the ice when this happens! So it isn't just a myth that players, for whatever reason, didn't come after Messier.

 

[Hobnobs]

Here is an example that is being talked about a lot. I know people think Messier never had to answer for things, but the truth is when did he hide? This was a normal reaction when Messier made a play like this. Look, if someone on the Dallas Stars wanted to drop the mitts with Messier he was right there. Derian Hatcher of all people is on the ice when this happens! So it isn't just a myth that players, for whatever reason, didn't come after Messier.

Yea, sometimes players dont go after somebody. That happens too. All this proves is that in this case, players didnt go after Messier.

Heres standard Messier. Gets owned in a fight and then plays tough behind a ref.




Messier hides while Graves sends a message for him.



For other heroic Messier moments just watch various brawl clips on YT where you can see Messier third man in or give people rabbit punches from behind and then go hide with a ref. Hes basically Cooke with offensive skill

 

[billybudd]

Yeah, that Mike Hough one is a terrible collision, but part of that is on Hough, honestly. He suddenly turns his back to the oncoming player at the moment before impact. Mess was trying to take him out physically, but he wasn't expecting Hough to suddenly turn at the last second.

Not saying it wasn't a nasty hit, but when the player suddenly turns his back at the moment before impact, a guy who's just made 5 strides to check you is going to look bad.

He definitely turned (was probably trying to draw a board), but what's so bad about the hit is that Moose saw this as a reason to drive into him and get full arm extension. Even back then, practically everyone pulls up a bit given enough time to react instead of giving the guy a little (lot) extra.

 

[Big Phil]

Yea, sometimes players dont go after somebody. That happens too. All this proves is that in this case, players didnt go after Messier.

Heres standard Messier. Gets owned in a fight and then plays tough behind a ref.




Messier hides while Graves sends a message for him.



For other heroic Messier moments just watch various brawl clips on YT where you can see Messier third man in or give people rabbit punches from behind and then go hide with a ref. Hes basically Cooke with offensive skill

That's the two WORST clips you could find on Messier? That's it? Kaspar trips him a couple of times and Graves has a few words with him and that's it. The other video Messier and Vladdy go down to the ice pretty quickly and Messier tries getting back at him but the ref keeps them apart. This was to prove that Messier was a coward?

Look, there are players in NHL history that just seem to be left alone more than others. People left Messier alone most of the time (I won't say it NEVER happened that someone challenged him). This happened with Howe too. It happened with Pronger and he did a lot of dirty stuff. It is almost as if the opposition didn't want to poke the bear.

 

[The Panther]

I call B.S. on the "Messier was a wimp" theory also. Look, he went toe-to-toe with McSorley, Roberts, Peplinski. He just didn't fight very often. And why would he? I'm pretty sure the coaching staff didn't want Messier dropping the mitts with bruisers and trading penalties with them.

Yeah, he did some nasty, dirty stuff, but let's not pretend he was Claude Lemieux.

 

[billybudd]

Here is an example that is being talked about a lot. I know people think Messier never had to answer for things, but the truth is when did he hide? This was a normal reaction when Messier made a play like this. Look, if someone on the Dallas Stars wanted to drop the mitts with Messier he was right there. Derian Hatcher of all people is on the ice when this happens! So it isn't just a myth that players, for whatever reason, didn't come after Messier.

Messier had a reputation for swinging his stick at the head of anyone who confronted him, which is probably why most people didn't. Also, Derian Hatcher was an all-time great at spot picking. He didn't confront dangerous people unless they were half his size. He'd rather chase Kelly Buchberger all over the ice.

Messier hides while Graves sends a message for him.

In this case, that's wisdom, not fear. Nothing good ever came from confronting Darius Kasparaitis. That would just encourage him. Lindros pounded Kaspar a half dozen times, but it didn't stop #11 from scrambling his brains then laughing about it. Gilmour orchestrated some sort of situation where he got Kasparaitis alone for a beating with no linesmen around at the end of a game. Next time they played, I think Kasparaitis took his knees out.

Only guy I ever saw put Kasparaitis in his place was Roberts and Roberts took a baseball swing at his face during a commercial break. Welt on his nose didn't heal for about 6 months.

 

[Hobnobs]

That's the two WORST clips you could find on Messier? That's it? Kaspar trips him a couple of times and Graves has a few words with him and that's it. The other video Messier and Vladdy go down to the ice pretty quickly and Messier tries getting back at him but the ref keeps them apart. This was to prove that Messier was a coward?

Look, there are players in NHL history that just seem to be left alone more than others. People left Messier alone most of the time (I won't say it NEVER happened that someone challenged him). This happened with Howe too. It happened with Pronger and he did a lot of dirty stuff. It is almost as if the opposition didn't want to poke the bear.

Who said anything about the worst? These was just the two clips I could remember of the top. As I said, look at some brawls. And dont mention dirty pukes like Mess and Pronger in the same sentance as the all-time great Howe. Messier fought less than Howe if you adjust to era. Howe always stood up for himself and fought whoever. Messier and Pronger went into hiding. Pronger is worse than Messier tho. If Messier and fought at the same ratio Howe fought they would be up at goon numbers (almost).

And yea, the thing with Vladdy is acting tough. If he really wanted Vladdy he would have.

 

[Sonny Lamateena]

It is a little ironic that you criticize Messier's image in Vancouver as being based on "myths and half truths" and then use fluff interview pieces to back up your argument. As anyone who follows the nhl knows, it is standard to say nice things about a teammate or former teammate no matter what.

Do you actually expect Crawford to come to the podium and say "You know, our Franchise's plan over the last three seasons to build a winning team around Mark Messier was a complete mistake...he turned out to be a ********* and pretty lacklustre on the ice to boot".

And do you really think a half dozen mainly young but established NHL players didn't know how to compete before the arrival of Mark Messier? Are you ****ing kidding me?! I can just imagine the type of leading questions asked that are so standard from nhl reporters: "Hey Markus, with Messier gone can you talk about what he taught you about leadership and the type of compete level needed to be a Champion in the nhl?"

Well if building a "winning team" (above .500) was Vancouver's goal then I don't see why Mark Crawford would call it a mistake. Messier played a significant role in identifying the problems in the dressing room and influenced many of the moves. He was one of the teams top scorers every year despite his age and injuries. He helped the team stop a 5 year streak of declining results and finally got the team back over .500 and moving in the right direction. Don't forget Messier was offered a contract to return to the Canucks, I think that says a lot.

I've read plenty of quotes from young players such as Tie Domi, Doug Weight, Tony Amonte, Brian Leetch, and Mike Richter on Mark Messier's positive influence on their careers and they seem genuine, so I have no reason to believe that Vancouver's young players didn't have a similar relationship with Messier.

 

[LeBlondeDemon10]

Sorry Hobnobs but Messier doesn't hide or back down there. Sure he was owned by Konstantinov, but that's about it. As far as the Modano hit goes, that was cheap and outright brutal. I can't believe nobody stepped up from the Stars. Anyways, who misses this in hockey? I sure do.

 

[Sonny Lamateena]

Messier didn't need Graves to fight his battles with Kasparaitis.

 

[Hobnobs]

Messier didn't need Graves to fight his battles with Kasparaitis.

I knew this one was coming up. Good sucker punch by Messier. Great bravery shown here.

Oh and for those that dont remember this game. This happened after Messier had just elbowed Kaspar twice. That brave captain.

 

[Sonny Lamateena]

I knew this one was coming up. Good sucker punch by Messier. Great bravery shown here.

Oh and for those that dont remember this game. This happened after Messier had just elbowed Kaspar twice. That brave captain.

That's no sucker punch, Kasparaitis was right in his face challenging him, he knew exactly what was about to happen.

 

[Hobnobs]

That's no sucker punch, Kasparaitis was right in his face challenging him, he knew exactly what was about to happen.

He was challenging him? Didnt know you could read minds. Gloves were on and Messier punches him in the face. A sucker punch. Granted not a Domi on Ulf sucker punch but a sucker punch none the less.

 

[Big Phil]

Who said anything about the worst? These was just the two clips I could remember of the top. As I said, look at some brawls. And dont mention dirty pukes like Mess and Pronger in the same sentance as the all-time great Howe. Messier fought less than Howe if you adjust to era. Howe always stood up for himself and fought whoever. Messier and Pronger went into hiding. Pronger is worse than Messier tho. If Messier and fought at the same ratio Howe fought they would be up at goon numbers (almost).

And yea, the thing with Vladdy is acting tough. If he really wanted Vladdy he would have.

Howe had 22 fights in his career. Howe didn't fight a whole lot either and they didn't call him "Elbows" for nothing. Look, I don't know why there were players that others didn't like to challenge despite the fact they could play dirty, but there just were.

Sorry Hobnobs but Messier doesn't hide or back down there. Sure he was owned by Konstantinov, but that's about it. As far as the Modano hit goes, that was cheap and outright brutal. I can't believe nobody stepped up from the Stars. Anyways, who misses this in hockey? I sure do.

Was he "owned" by Vladdy though? They sort of grab each other maybe get a punch or two out and tumble at the same time.

He was challenging him? Didnt know you could read minds. Gloves were on and Messier punches him in the face. A sucker punch. Granted not a Domi on Ulf sucker punch but a sucker punch none the less.

Messier took the gloves off, there was certainly a face to face combat in my eyes. It isn't his fault Kaspar just sits there.

 

[Hobnobs]

Howe had 22 fights in his career. Howe didn't fight a whole lot either and they didn't call him "Elbows" for nothing. Look, I don't know why there were players that others didn't like to challenge despite the fact they could play dirty, but there just were.

He had more than that and more than 30 in your career during the O6 era was basically goon numbers. So he fought alot more than Messier adjusted for era.

Messier took the gloves off, there was certainly a face to face combat in my eyes. It isn't his fault Kaspar just sits there.

No they stared at eachother. And Messier quickly dropped his gloves and punched him. Thats a sucker punch.

 

[Killion]

He was challenging him? Didnt know you could read minds. Gloves were on and Messier punches him in the face. A sucker punch. Granted not a Domi on Ulf sucker punch but a sucker punch none the less.

No, I dont think Kasparatis was expecting that at all considering he was the aggrieved party having just been on the receiving end of 2 elbows. Was just looking to yell into Messiers face. Sneak attack. Didnt even have his gloved hands up in an attempt to ward off the first & second punches. He was jumped. Dirty, cheap tactic. Take the guy out before he even has a chance to defend himself so you dont have to face him fair & square.

 

[David Bruce Banner]

I call B.S. on the "Messier was a wimp" theory also. Look, he went toe-to-toe with McSorley, Roberts, Peplinski. He just didn't fight very often. And why would he? I'm pretty sure the coaching staff didn't want Messier dropping the mitts with bruisers and trading penalties with them.

Yeah, he did some nasty, dirty stuff, but let's not pretend he was Claude Lemieux.

Not really much evidence available on the Roberts and Peplinski fights so I'll reserve judgment... but I'll admit, going toe to toe with the McSorley is pretty brave, even knowing the refs would jump right in before 5 punches were thrown.

No he was no Claude Lemieux. Lemieux actually, on occasion, backed up his dirty work with his fists.

 

[monster_bertuzzi]

I'm not a Messier fan but a Canucks fan, but in retrospect i kind of like Messier's fiasco tenure in Vancouver simply because it tarnished his image quite a bit.

Sundin had a better impact on the Sedins and Kesler, both leadership & player wise, playing half a season in Vancouver than Messier had on any players in three years.

Yeah, except Näslund who said that Messier was a good mentor or something like that. Says it all really.

Buddy his tenure didn't tarnish **** other than people recognized he was an old man not getting it done anymore on a brutal 97-2000 Canucks team.

Bertuzzi, Jovo, and Ohlund also had good things to say about Mess's mentoring.

 

[Sonny Lamateena]

No, I dont think Kasparatis was expecting that at all considering he was the aggrieved party having just been on the receiving end of 2 elbows. Was just looking to yell into Messiers face. Sneak attack. Didnt even have his gloved hands up in an attempt to ward off the first & second punches. He was jumped. Dirty, cheap tactic. Take the guy out before he even has a chance to defend himself so you dont have to face him fair & square.

You think Kasparaitis who had been in the League for years, was a known agitator and had history of cheap shots, a veteran of the battles of NY, who had just had been elbowed twice in the head by Messier skated into his face and expected a conversation? Watch Kaspar's left hand, his glove was off and up to try to block Messier before the first punch was even thrown. It was just a dumb move by Kasparaitis, he knew better than that.

 

[billybudd]

You think Kasparaitis who had been in the League for years, was a known agitator and had history of cheap shots, a veteran of the battles of NY, who had just had been elbowed twice in the head by Messier skated into his face and expected a conversation? Watch Kaspar's left hand, his glove was off and up to try to block Messier before the first punch was even thrown. It was just a dumb move by Kasparaitis, he knew better than that.

There's nothing dumb about it. He's trying to draw a penalty.

 

[Sonny Lamateena]

There's nothing dumb about it. He's trying to draw a penalty.

October game, his team already with a 3 goal lead in the 2nd period, getting punched in the head multiple times to draw a double roughing minor. Yeah that is a genius move.