Mark Arcobello vs Sam Gagner 2014/15 Season

[OneMoreAstronaut]

sorry to be mister Acro hater, but I am really not convinced he is even a NHL player. I am amazed how many guys are talking as if it is a given Arco even plays the year in the NHL.

This is the boat I'm in. Welcome to my boat.

Don't get me wrong, I'm hoping for the best, but I think it's a pretty big assumption to put him on the roster right now.

 

[CupofOil]

sorry to be mister Acro hater, but I am really not convinced he is even a NHL player. I am amazed how many guys are talking as if it is a given Arco even plays the year in the NHL.

He plays in the NHL because the Oilers have nobody else. Again, MacT wants 3 scoring lines. Lander doesn't fit that mold, he'll likely be on 4th line wing if anything.
I feel like we've had this back and forth before, like yesterday.

 

[belair]

sorry to be mister Acro hater, but I am really not convinced he is even a NHL player. I am amazed how many guys are talking as if it is a given Arco even plays the year in the NHL.

Came here to post this.

As much **** as Gagner has taken wearing Oilers silks, he is miles and miles ahead of a guy like Arcobello. The only reason many can fathom Arcobello as an NHL regular is his obviously unsustainable production at the beginning of last season. He's shown very little to prove he's an NHL calibre player and hardly anything to prove he's capable of holding a roster spot that would allow him to put up the kind of numbers that some are expecting.

I truly hope that Arco proves me wrong, but it's between Lander, Acton or him to hold a spot to start the year. Expectations are extremely low there. Meanwhile Gagner is likely pencilled in on the top line in Phoenix.

If I'm a gambling man, it's pretty easy to see which one my money is on.

 

[Aerchon]

The above Arco "haters" are a bit over the top.

Arco would be given a legitimate chance to start in most teams top 6 between his AHL success and solid NHL debut.

No one can say forsure how he will do but to say gagner is league's better and Arco probably won't make the team... Just doesn't make sense.

 

[Up the Irons]

Came here to post this.

As much **** as Gagner has taken wearing Oilers silks, he is miles and miles ahead of a guy like Arcobello. The only reason many can fathom Arcobello as an NHL regular is his obviously unsustainable production at the beginning of last season. He's shown very little to prove he's an NHL calibre player and hardly anything to prove he's capable of holding a roster spot that would allow him to put up the kind of numbers that some are expecting.

I truly hope that Arco proves me wrong, but it's between Lander, Acton or him to hold a spot to start the year. Expectations are extremely low there. Meanwhile Gagner is likely pencilled in on the top line in Phoenix.

If I'm a gambling man, it's pretty easy to see which one my money is on.

miles and miles? well, clearly, you saw something that Mact didn't. Arco's performance last year is the reason Mact traded Gagner for a winger that was about to be bought out.

I can't understand how this is missed. If Gagner were so good, Mact would have kept him.

 

[Replacement*]

miles and miles? well, clearly, you saw something that Mact didn't. Arco's performance last year is the reason Mact traded Gagner for a winger that was about to be bought out.

I can't understand how this is missed. If Gagner were so good, Mact would have kept him.

Well the buyout is interesting in anycase in that it was MacT who signed the 5M contract in the first place only 11mths before. So if anything the buyout says something about MacT.

Further to that MacT decided to go in a different direction with this club. Gagner was a big fan of Kruger as a coach, several of the players on this team were and Kruger felt similarly about Gagner.

But Mact changed where this team was headed with the Eakin hire and so too how players would be utilized. Whereas Kruger was more about balance and needing several players going Eakins tends to be a first line acolyte that would play them the whole game if he could. To Eakins Hall, Eberle, RNH are amazing and everybody after that can pound sand. Which had repercussons on players like Gagner, Hemsky, Yak, Gordon, Jones, even Smyth who finally was convinced to retire to get away from this crap.

MacT even stated that sometimes players need to get out of losing environments. He talked about Horc and Hemmer specifically in this and he said it around the time of Hemsky going to Ottawa at the trade deadline. I remember him talking about a good player sometimes just needing to be elsewhere. That its been too long here.
When MacT said that about Hemsky one kind of thought Gagner was going to be next.

MacT had a change of heart. That's what the buyout was about. No sane hockey manager would change their entire view on a player in the space of 11mths or should. MacT felt the team needed to move in a different direction. This would be with Eakins in his ear and Eakins complaining about a team that hadn't learned defense.
Its why I still worry if Yak is headed out. The longer Eakins is here the more that possibility looms. But then if Eakins is here very long I could see a lot of players wanting out. In fairness I think Sam finally did too. Sam lost the script last year. Not too curious Gagners worst years were under Quinn and Eakins.

 

[Beerfish]

The above Arco "haters" are a bit over the top.

Arco would be given a legitimate chance to start in most teams top 6 between his AHL success and solid NHL debut.

No one can say forsure how he will do but to say gagner is league's better and Arco probably won't make the team... Just doesn't make sense.

Oh I really disagree with the bolded part.

 

[Replacement*]

Oh I really disagree with the bolded part.

Almost anybody would. I'm still trying to figure out what is meant by "solid NHL debut"

Because I remember a player that was lost and ineffective most of the time he played here last season.

 

[Senor Catface]

Lost and ineffective last season? Wow, sounds like Gagner too.

 

[belair]

The above Arco "haters" are a bit over the top.

Arco would be given a legitimate chance to start in most teams top 6 between his AHL success and solid NHL debut.

No one can say forsure how he will do but to say gagner is league's better and Arco probably won't make the team... Just doesn't make sense.

Over the top?

I wouldn't even consider myself an 'Arco-hater'.

But look at his gamelog. 4g-4a in the last 31 games of his season after 10p in his first 10g is a pretty sad statistic. His multipoint games which tend to pad his offensive stats weren't against the strongest of teams either. That's Eric Belanger territory.

I hope one of these guys steps out of the AHL and lights it up. It would be a welcome change. But to see expectations of a 50 point year for the guy is extremely optimistic. Lets hope he plays well enough just to stay in the show.

 

[Perfect_Drug]

I think we're gonna see Sam Gagner get to be terribad on another team.

Dave Tippett won't let Sam Gagner play without being reliable on the backcheck... which makes me think we won't see Gagner play very much.





Gagner won't match the Point totals of Mike Ribeiro.

 

[belair]

miles and miles? well, clearly, you saw something that Mact didn't. Arco's performance last year is the reason Mact traded Gagner for a winger that was about to be bought out.

I can't understand how this is missed. If Gagner were so good, Mact would have kept him.

MacT traded Gagner because if he didn't his NTC was going to make that situation a whole lot more complicated. He wasn't holding any cards and he didn't have many other options. That deal was a risky move by both parties that ended up giving a third party the best player in the whole deal.

Replacement was right when he brought up MacT's comments about players needing a fresh start. Gagner's been here for the whole ride and it's poisoned his image and his game. I completely expect Dave Tippett to change his game and make that deal look like more of a steal than it already is.

But that certainly doesn't change the fact that I hope Teddy Purcell can bring an element that this team is lacking.

 

[Patch101]

Arco's got to prove he can play as he did at the start of the season with the same level of intensity. If he can play like that he's an NHL player.

I think he's being written off because of his size and because he's a dude who's had to fight his way up. No reason to believe he can't do it based on his progress so far.
If Arco (with no change in the way he plays) had been a 3rd round pick and over 6 foot playing as he had over the last couple years in the AHL would we be as skeptical of him or more excited?

 

[No Good Names Left]

I say Arcobello, only because I really think Edmonton is breaking out this year.

I guess if its said enough times, its bound to be right eventually.

 

[Spawn]

why compare? it's two different teams and systems?

in the Coyotes system im sure Arco would put up a better +/- than Gagner. points should go to Gagner regardless (but for his draft stock and supposed abilities, Gagner is so underwhelming).

but this comparative nonsense based on completely different relational "networks" of players/coaches/systems/etc doesnt tell us much about the players actual effective properties towards the team.

I compare because the comparison has been going on in various threads since Gagner was traded and more than a few people have said that Arcobello was and is a better center than Gagner.

Thought it was a worthy discussion to be had.

 

[Aerchon]

Over the top?

I wouldn't even consider myself an 'Arco-hater'.

But look at his gamelog. 4g-4a in the last 31 games of his season after 10p in his first 10g is a pretty sad statistic. His multipoint games which tend to pad his offensive stats weren't against the strongest of teams either. That's Eric Belanger territory.

I hope one of these guys steps out of the AHL and lights it up. It would be a welcome change. But to see expectations of a 50 point year for the guy is extremely optimistic. Lets hope he plays well enough just to stay in the show.

This just goes in circles.

Arcobello’s play when playing in a top 6 role was very solid. The only time you "could" argue that he maybe looked lost was when he was primarily playing with Gazdic. Even during that time Arco still looked good imo, but had to cover far too often for Gazdic.

Edit: and Arco is already destroying the AHL at an amazing 2 ppg clip... Why would u want anyone else from the AHL if that doesn't float your boat?

 

[Up the Irons]

Well the buyout is interesting in anycase in that it was MacT who signed the 5M contract in the first place only 11mths before. So if anything the buyout says something about MacT.

Further to that MacT decided to go in a different direction with this club. Gagner was a big fan of Kruger as a coach, several of the players on this team were and Kruger felt similarly about Gagner.

But Mact changed where this team was headed with the Eakin hire and so too how players would be utilized. Whereas Kruger was more about balance and needing several players going Eakins tends to be a first line acolyte that would play them the whole game if he could. To Eakins Hall, Eberle, RNH are amazing and everybody after that can pound sand. Which had repercussons on players like Gagner, Hemsky, Yak, Gordon, Jones, even Smyth who finally was convinced to retire to get away from this crap.

MacT even stated that sometimes players need to get out of losing environments. He talked about Horc and Hemmer specifically in this and he said it around the time of Hemsky going to Ottawa at the trade deadline. I remember him talking about a good player sometimes just needing to be elsewhere. That its been too long here.
When MacT said that about Hemsky one kind of thought Gagner was going to be next.

MacT had a change of heart. That's what the buyout was about. No sane hockey manager would change their entire view on a player in the space of 11mths or should. MacT felt the team needed to move in a different direction. This would be with Eakins in his ear and Eakins complaining about a team that hadn't learned defense.
Its why I still worry if Yak is headed out. The longer Eakins is here the more that possibility looms. But then if Eakins is here very long I could see a lot of players wanting out. In fairness I think Sam finally did too. Sam lost the script last year. Not too curious Gagners worst years were under Quinn and Eakins.

Well, thats all well and good (cough-excuses), but Arco's performance had a bit to do with it.

When I see Gagner perform 'miles and miles' better than Arco, I will admit it. But, I didn't see that last year, and aside from Gagner's predicable hot offensive streaks, I haven't really seen much in his 7 years.

Yes, Arco only did it for a month last year, but to be as good as Gagner? Well, let's just the bar isn't set very high. If he can get 35 points and be better at everything else, I'd call it, at worst, a wash.

If Gagner goes out and gets 60 pts, or 50 pts and rounds out his d-game, then Mact effed up.

Which is more likely to happen?

 

[Up the Irons]

Arco's got to prove he can play as he did at the start of the season with the same level of intensity. If he can play like that he's an NHL player.

I think he's being written off because of his size and because he's a dude who's had to fight his way up. No reason to believe he can't do it based on his progress so far.
If Arco (with no change in the way he plays) had been a 3rd round pick and over 6 foot playing as he had over the last couple years in the AHL would we be as skeptical of him or more excited?

good point.

 

[rboomercat90]

Well the buyout is interesting in anycase in that it was MacT who signed the 5M contract in the first place only 11mths before. So if anything the buyout says something about MacT.

Further to that MacT decided to go in a different direction with this club. Gagner was a big fan of Kruger as a coach, several of the players on this team were and Kruger felt similarly about Gagner.

But Mact changed where this team was headed with the Eakin hire and so too how players would be utilized. Whereas Kruger was more about balance and needing several players going Eakins tends to be a first line acolyte that would play them the whole game if he could. To Eakins Hall, Eberle, RNH are amazing and everybody after that can pound sand. Which had repercussons on players like Gagner, Hemsky, Yak, Gordon, Jones, even Smyth who finally was convinced to retire to get away from this crap.

MacT even stated that sometimes players need to get out of losing environments. He talked about Horc and Hemmer specifically in this and he said it around the time of Hemsky going to Ottawa at the trade deadline. I remember him talking about a good player sometimes just needing to be elsewhere. That its been too long here.
When MacT said that about Hemsky one kind of thought Gagner was going to be next.

MacT had a change of heart. That's what the buyout was about. No sane hockey manager would change their entire view on a player in the space of 11mths or should. MacT felt the team needed to move in a different direction. This would be with Eakins in his ear and Eakins complaining about a team that hadn't learned defense.
Its why I still worry if Yak is headed out. The longer Eakins is here the more that possibility looms. But then if Eakins is here very long I could see a lot of players wanting out. In fairness I think Sam finally did too. Sam lost the script last year. Not too curious Gagners worst years were under Quinn and Eakins.

Gagner's second year under Mactavish wasn't very good either, let's not forget that.

 

[belair]

This just goes in circles.

Arcobello’s play when playing in a top 6 role was very solid. The only time you "could" argue that he maybe looked lost was when he was primarily playing with Gazdic. Even during that time Arco still looked good imo, but had to cover far too often for Gazdic.

Edit: and Arco is already destroying the AHL at an amazing 2 ppg clip... Why would u want anyone else from the AHL if that doesn't float your boat?

I hope they all come out of the AHL and succeed. My point is that no one has. And I'm not sure what part of that explanation went in circles. After a hot start, Arcobello proceeded to put up 8 points in 31 games.

Based on that fact, I'm extremely skeptical of his ability to play consistently at an NHL level. Let alone outplay and outscore a younger player who has played 439 more games than him in the NHL.

 

[CupofOil]

The above Arco "haters" are a bit over the top.

Arco would be given a legitimate chance to start in most teams top 6 between his AHL success and solid NHL debut.

No one can say forsure how he will do but to say gagner is league's better and Arco probably won't make the team... Just doesn't make sense.

What? Most Teams?
I understand that you're an Arco homer but this is simply, a ridiculous statement.

I can think of 2 maybe 3 teams where he would even have a small chance of making the top 6. Buffalo (although Girgensons would easily have the inside track), Ottawa (although Zibanejad would have the inside track) and Calgary MAYBE. That's it. He doesn't have a prayer in making any other top 6. Hell, He wouldn't have made the Oilers top 6 last season if not for the Gagner injury.

I mean, congrats to Arco for getting an opportunity and I'm certainly rooting for him to do well but you seemed to have a warped reality of what he has accomplished. I see a player who is too good for the AHL but has never proven enough to be considered a legit top 6 NHLer or worthy of being a lead candidate for a top 6 spot going into a training camp. He's extremely fortunate that Gagner got injured last season and that MacT brought in no centers this offseason otherwise, I have a feeling that he would be off to Europe by now.

Again. Not an Arco hater. I'd love it if he did really well and became a part of a solution as opposed to another Oiler who is overwhelmed and you bumped this thread at a later date to say that you were right but honestly, this is one of very few teams where he would even have a sniff of a top 6 spot going into camp. Lets see if he makes the most of it.

 

[McGhostbuster]

I really see it being Gagner 50ish points and a -10 or so and Arcobello hits at most 40 points and is a -20.

 

[Replacement*]

I compare because the comparison has been going on in various threads since Gagner was traded and more than a few people have said that Arcobello was and is a better center than Gagner.

Thought it was a worthy discussion to be had.

Of course it was and one that can be a dedicated thread for posterity. As you noted several posters in other threads had made sweeping generalizations that Arco is flat out a better player than Gagner. With these suggestions occurring in some threads with not many people participating.

Yet put it up on a dedicated thread and with a poll and pretty clear what the minority, odd opinion is.

People know my opinion that Gagner is an underestimated player here, quite talented, and would be useful on a good team. He hasn't seen any good teams here unfortunately.

Anyway so far over 80% of respondents think Gagner will have more pts than Arco while Gagner is getting adjusted to a new team. This despite the Arco proponents saying he's a top six player, will be used as such, and can match Gagner production. (yet with those posters backing away from any bets to that effect.) This despite the Oilers being a potentially higher scoring team and with some more name goal scorers in the lineup.

Anyway I'm glad you made the poll even if theres little new to discuss on the topic until the results start rolling in.

That said I have a pretty clear idea what those results will be. Judging from the poll most people do as well. Although all we ever hear on other threads is how the Oilers have actually improved by having Arco at #2 center instead of Gagner.

 

[Replacement*]

good point.

What? That if Arco was +6ft and 200lbs he'd be more adapted to WC play as a Center?

Being that the reality is he's 5ft8 and 166lbs if I had wings I could fly..

I guess we could all wish for something else, we probably deserve it

At least Draisaitl will limit how long we see Arco in this experiment. Although that could be a season away.

 

[harpoon]

but for his draft stock and supposed abilities, Gagner is so underwhelming

Yeah, right.

To this day there are only a few forwards in Gagner's draft year that you can say are producing better than Gagner. Before looking at this numbers please keep in mind that Gagner played on the worst team in hockey for his entire career. Not just worst by a little bit, so bad that it nearly set records for futility dating back to the seventies. And remember also the gawd awful rosters this team as run out ... rosters where goofs like Horcoff are first liners.

Logan Couture - 0.74 PPG over four NHL seasons.

Went on to play 110 more games in junior after being drafted, and fifty games in the AHL before the Sharks even bothered dressing him for a game. Since hitting the NHL he has pretty much ripped the league. This might be a point for Oilers management to consider when handling their draft picks ... and a point for hfoil posters to understand before they say "ah, sending him back doesn't do a lick of good". Kid also gets to play on a stacked team with competent coaching and loads of veteran support.

Patrick Kane - 0.96 PPG over seven NHL season

Obviously miles ahead of Gagner or anyone in this draft, yet still hasn't managed a ppg over his career despite playing on a winning/stacked team.

Kyle Turris Phhhht ... O.51 PPG over five NHL season

122 AHL games since being drafted (games in which he only put up 71 points). Cleared the "magic" 50 point threshold only in his last season with the Sens as a 25/26 year old.

James van Riemsdyk - 0.59 PPG over five NHL season.

I guess the argument can be made that he's ahead of Gagner now. Again, this player had a full AHL season plus two more seasons of university hockey after his draft.

Jakub Voracek - 0.65 PPG over six NHL season.

Probably the most comparable to Gagner imo. And he also went back to junior for a full season after his draft.


Sam Gagner - 0.61 PPG over seven NHL season.

No return to junior, no AHL seasoning, no decent vet support, a carousel of coaching incompetence. Yet his PPG total is right there with his peers.


Now tell me again Corpse how Gagner's performance relative to his "draft stock and supposed abilities is so underwhelming". I'll tell you something ... most Oiler fans have even less of a clue than our inept management as to what a decent player looks like. Sammy is going to roll in Phoenix and they'll be tears aplently on this board from fans who always knew Gags was a quality player. And it will be crickets from the dozen or so hard core Gagner haters. You can take that to the bank.


Arcobello will be lucky to last the season. This poll is laughable.

35 points

Wanna bet Arco doesn't get thirty five points in this or any of his (highly unlikely) future NHL season?