March 2nd TDL Part 2

[Anton Dubinchuk]

Oh, okay. When you think that's anywhere close to happening, you let me know.

You do the same with the playoff bracket lottery draft, lol.

 

[dogbazinho]

I would like to see any team that wins the lottery be excluding from winning future lotteries from a certain amount of time or at least have their chances greatly reduced. Teams should not monopolize generational talent. And yes I know picking 2nd is still fantastic most years but at least we remove some of the incentive.

 

[garnetpalmetto]

You do the same with the playoff bracket lottery draft, lol.

Seriously. Extra revenues or not, the NHLPA is not going to rubber stamp some cockamamie scheme to replace the system we have in place now at the risk of players on the teams in this playoff bracket lottery draft sustaining injuries, perhaps career ending ones.

 

[Anton Dubinchuk]

I totally dig the concept though. It'd obviously just be 1-game series, so it wouldn't be a huge thing. Still, I bet there are too many legal and logistical hoops to jump through to even think about it happening.

 

[cptjeff]

Leaving aside the ad hominem attack, let's enumerate some of these flaws.

1. A draft playoff would not help bad teams get better.

It's trivially easy to set up a system where the worst team gets a bye to the final, guaranteeing them a 2nd pick at worst. Exactly like the current lottery.

It's also trivially easy to give the second-worst team a bye to the semi-final, and the third-and-fourth worst teams a bye to the quarterfinals, thus guaranteeing them worst picks of 4th, 7th and 8th, respectively. (Or even 3rd, 5th and 6th.)

Teams that are better than 4th worst are not much different from one another, but suddenly have chances to work their way to better picks by actually winning games.

Let's move on to the next:

2. Players would have no incentive to play in such a game.

What incentive is there for players to play out the last 30 games of a season when it's evident that they're not playing for the Cup?

But ok. Let's throw in some sugar. 25 players on a roster. At $50 average ticket price for 15,000 fans, that's $750k. Take a third of that for the venue. The remaining $500k goes to the winner of each game, so $20k for each player for each win. That's more than the losers of a first round series take home in bonus money, BTW. More than 15,000 fans? More money on the table.

Any other evident flaws, cptjeff? Consider it an intellectual exercise -- the education of a moron.

I said it was a moronic idea, I did not say that you were a moron.

1. It's not comically easy to structure byes like that. In fact, it makes the whole playoff structure quite complicated. Take one team straight to the final? Okay, maybe if you have an odd number of teams. Besides, wouldn't that provide the exact same reward to the supposedly tanking team that you're trying to avoid? You would create the exact same incentive you're trying to destroy.

What on earth makes you think you'll get 17,500 people at $50? Meaningless games for draft order? Hate to break it to you, but very, very few people care about draft order that much. One losing team playing another gets you 10k at $20 a pop. Maybe. And absolutely no TV money, because who's going to put these games on TV while the real playoffs are on? You're going to lose money just by turning the lights and A/C on in the arena. Not to mention that the arenas are going to lose out on far more profitable acts than a barely half attended hockey game, which is kind of a big deal to a lot of teams and owners with a stake in arena revenues.

And $20k is nothing for most players- they would much, much rather have the offseason come so they can get themselves back to health, spend time with family. Oh, and if you have byes (which, again, completely defeat the supposed point of this mess), that means that some teams wouldn't play for weeks and then would have to step on the ice for a game completely out of practice. So you have two teams on the ice who both suck, filled with players who don't want to be there, playing a game with virtually no meaning, and one team of which having not played in weeks. And you think that that would be exciting hockey? Not to mention the risk of injuries. The Players Association wouldn't take kindly to a proposal like this.

Oh, and you're holding these during the real playoffs, right? Does the NHL really want any media attention whatsoever on low quality games full of empty arenas and disinterested players while they're trying very, very, hard to call the world's attention to the real playoffs, with some of the most intense and best quality hockey in the world? It would be a joke and an embarrassment to the league in every media outlet that decided to cover it. Which they would, because a lot of the US media gets a kick out of mocking the NHL when it acts like a minor league.

So you'd have bad hockey that nobody would watch, a system that basically reverses everything the draft is supposed to do unless you implement a system of byes that creates the exact same incentives to tank that you're trying to get rid of in the first place, and players that would resent being asked to show up and risk career ending injury to play for a chance to draft their own replacement. Which is okay, because they would be paid peanuts for it.

 

[Anton Dubinchuk]

I say we do a tournament of just the shootout to determine the draft order.

 

[cptjeff]

I would like to see any team that wins the lottery be excluding from winning future lotteries from a certain amount of time or at least have their chances greatly reduced. Teams should not monopolize generational talent. And yes I know picking 2nd is still fantastic most years but at least we remove some of the incentive.

The Edmonton rule? It's been proposed, and I think the league considered doing exactly that in the last round of draft changes. Seems like it got shot down a little bit, though. Can't imagine what teams might have protested that change...

 

[GoldiFox]

I say we do a tournament of just the shootout to determine the draft order.

This... This is what needs to happen.

I can see it now. Bottom of the barrel teams scrambling at the trade deadline, trading future 1sts for Jussi Jokinen.

 

[Anton Dubinchuk]

It'd change the way you build your roster by the end. A guy like Chris Terry becomes a ridiculously valuable guy to have in the AHL all year. You'd draft shootout specialist in late rounds as investments for future high picks.

 

[Unsustainable]

Breakdown:

March 2nd:

To Boston: Zack Phillips
To Minnesota: Jared Knight

To Anaheim: Korbinian Holzer
To Toronto: Eric Brewer, 5th-round pick (’15) (link)

To Anaheim: James Wisniewski, 3rd-round pick (’15)
To Columbus: William Karlsson, Rene Bourque and 2nd-round pick (’15) (link)

To Boston: Max Talbot, Paul Carey
To Colorado: Jordan Caron, 6th-round pick (’16) (link)

To Vancouver: Sven Baertschi
To Calgary: 2nd-round pick (’15) (link)

To Anaheim: Simon Despres
To Pittsburgh: Ben Lovejoy (link)

To St. Louis: Olli Jokinen
To Toronto: Joakim Lindstrom, 6th-round pick (conditional, ’15) (link)

To Minnesota: Chris Stewart
To Buffalo: 2nd-round pick (’17) (link)

To Montreal: Torrey Mitchell
To Buffalo: Jack Nevins, 7th-round pick (’16) (link)

To Arizona Coyotes: David Leggio
To New York Islanders: Mark Louis (link)

To Minnesota: Jordan Leopold
To Columbus: Justin Falk, 5th-round pick (’15) (link)

To Vancouver: Cory Conacher
To New York Islanders: Dustin Jeffrey (link)

To Pittsburgh: Roberto Bortuzzo
To St. Louis: Ian Cole, 7th-round pick (’16) (link)

To San Jose: Karl Stollery
To Colorado: Freddie Hamilton (link)

To New York Islanders: Michal Neuvirth
To Buffal Sabres: Chad Johnson, 3rd-round pick (’16) (link)

To New York Islanders: Tyler Kennedy
To San Jose Sharks: 3rd-round pick (conditional, ’16) (link)

To Detroit: Marek Zidlicky
To New Jersey: 3rd-round pick (conditional, ’16) (link)

To San Jose: Ben Smith, 7th round pick (’17, conditional)
To Chicago: Andrew Desjardins (link)

To St. Louis: Zbynek Michalek, 3rd-round pick (conditional, ’15)
To Arizona: Maxim Letunov (link)

To Montreal: Brian Flynn
To Buffalo: 5th-round pick (’16) (link)

To Montreal: Jeff Petry
To Edmonton: 2nd-round pick (’15), 5th-round pick (conditional, ’15) (link)

To Tampa Bay: Braydon Coburn
To Philly: Radko Gudas, 1st-round pick (’15), 3rd-round pick (’15) (link)

To Boston: Brett Connolly
To Tampa Bay: 2nd-round pick (’15), 2nd round-pick (’16) (link)

Sunday, Mar. 1

To Detroit: Erik Cole, 3rd-round pick (conditional, ’15)
To Dallas: Mattias Janmark, Mattias Backman, 2nd-round pick (’15) (link)

To New York Rangers: James Sheppard
To San Jose: 4th-round pick (’16) (link)

To Winnipeg: Lee Stempniak
To New York Rangers: Carl Klingberg (link)

To New York Rangers: Keith Yandle, Chris Summers, 4th-round pick (’15)
To Arizona: John Moore, Anthony Duclair, 1st-round pick (conditional, ’16), 2nd-round pick (’15) (link)

To Washington: Curtis Glencross
To Calgary: 2nd-round pick (’15), 3rd-round pick (’15) (link)

Saturday, Feb. 28

To Chicago: Antoine Vermette
To Arizona: Klas Dahlbeck, 1st-round pick (’15) (link)

To Anaheim: Tomas Fleischmann
To Florida: Dany Heatley, 3rd-round pick (’15) (link)

To Washington: Tim Gleason
To Carolina: Jack Hillen, 4th-round pick (’15) (link)

Friday, Feb. 27

To Chicago: Kimmo Timonen
To Philly: 2nd-round pick (’15), 4th-round pick (conditional, ’16) (link)

Thursday, Feb. 26

To Columbus: David Clarkson
To Toronto: Nathan Horton (link)

To Florida: Jaromir Jagr
To New Jersey: 2nd-round pick (’15), 3rd-round pick (’16) (link)

To Toronto: T.J. Brennan
To Chicago: Spencer Abbott (link)

To St. Louis: Adam Cracknell
To Columbus: Future considerations (link)

Wednesday, Feb. 25

To Los Angeles: Andrej Sekera
To Carolina: Roland McKeown, 1st-round pick (conditional, ’15 or ’16) (link)

To Pittsburgh: Daniel Winnik
To Toronto: Zach Sill, 2nd-round pick (’16), 4th-round pick (’15) (link)

To Winnipeg: Jiri Tlusty
To Carolina: 3rd-round pick (’16), 6th-round pick (conditional, ’15) (link)

Tuesday, Feb. 24

To Minnesota: Sean Bergenheim, 7th-round pick (’16)
To Florida: 3rd-round pick (’16) (link)

To Anaheim: Jiri Sekac
To Montreal: Devante-Smith Pelly (link)

Sunday, Feb. 15

To Nashville: Cody Franson, Mike Santorelli
To Toronto: Olli Jokinen, Brendan Leipsic, 1st-round pick (’15) (link)

Wednesday, Feb. 11

To Dallas: Jhonas Enroth
To Buffalo: Anders Lindback, 3rd-round pick (conditional, ’16) (link)

To Buffalo: Evander Kane, Zach Bogosian, Jason Kasdorf
To Winnipeg: Tyler Myers, Drew Stafford, Joel Armia, Brendan Lemieux, 1st-round pick (’15) (link)

 

[Ole Gil]

Another good job by Francis, I think. The pattern seems to be long term flexibility, not giving up any picks, and accumulating what they can.

After his first Draft/FA/Trade Deadline, I'm fairly optimistic.

 

[GoldiFox]

Another good job by Francis, I think. The pattern seems to be long term flexibility, not giving up any picks, and accumulating what they can.

After his first Draft/FA/Trade Deadline, I'm fairly optimistic.

Cue Francis trading Canes 1st Round Pick and Jeff Skinner for Dion Phaneuf at Draft

 

[Ole Gil]

That's what's nice. I don't feel like we have to worry about that. There don't seem to be any inclinations for wacky shortcuts to success or big gambles. Just steady smart moves as part of a long term plan.

 

[bleedgreen]

I still can't get over what coburn brought back. Two picks, including a first and also his replacement. Just nuts. First time Stevie Y has me scratching my head.

 

[CandyCanes]

I'm not very optimistic for the short term future of the Hurricanes. But I really think Francis so far is showing he is committed to building this team for the long term success. Which I am super excited about once it comes to that time! He made some very smart moves this trade deadline. This is something Rutherford never really did in his tenure here, Rutherford was able to build some successful teams by pawning off the future of the team. As we all know we have never have had the foundation to bring us to back to back playoff appearances, and I think Francis will do that down the road for are franchise with smart asset management like he's been showing.

I unfortunately don't think we will compete for a playoff spot again next season, but neither do I think we will be a basement team. The Canes could set them selves up good for a very good 2016-2017 NHL season with developing players, and Eric Staal & Cam Ward's big contracts coming off the books. (I would like to bring E. Staal back on a more affordable contract, and not sure about Wardo yet) But this off season I'd like the Canes to bring in a few guys in on 1 year deals, that could be used as viable players or potential assets come trade deadline. Prime example this year was Daniel Winnik who signed a 1 year $1.3 million deal with Toronto this off season, which ended up bringing home Toronto a 2nd & 4th round pick for flipping Winnik to Pittsburgh.

My prediction is in the 2016-2017 season will be the start of are first back to back play off appearances. With the core of the team being E. Staal, J. Staal, Lindholm, Faulk, Fleury, 2015 top 6 overall pick, & I believe we will have one more star on the team come via free agency or trade. (I love Skinner, but for some reason I just don't think he will be here much longer)

 

[CandyCanes]

I still can't get over what coburn brought back. Two picks, including a first and also his replacement. Just nuts. First time Stevie Y has me scratching my head.

Unbelievable return for Philly. I'm still scratching my head too. I remember Canes were rumored to have interest in Coburn this past off season, glad we didn't pay that price!

 

[GoldiFox]

I still can't get over what coburn brought back. Two picks, including a first and also his replacement. Just nuts. First time Stevie Y has me scratching my head.

I said it earlier, I think they were probably in on Franson, Sekera, and Yandle and just missed out. Stevie Y panicked and overpaid with options diminishing.

 

[Navin R Slavin]

1. It's not comically easy to structure byes like that. In fact, it makes the whole playoff structure quite complicated. Take one team straight to the final? Okay, maybe if you have an odd number of teams. Besides, wouldn't that provide the exact same reward to the supposedly tanking team that you're trying to avoid? You would create the exact same incentive you're trying to destroy.

Trivial.

14 teams. Reverse order of seeds: 1=lowest number of points, 2=highest number of points.

First round: 14 v. 3 / 13-4 / 12-5 / 11-6 / 10-7 / 9-8.
Second round: 14-3 v. 9-8 / 13-4 v 10-7 / 12-5 v 11-6.
Third round: Lowest seed v. 2, other two second round winners.
Fourth round: Two winners of the third round.
Fifth round: Winner of the fourth round v 1 seed.

Took me 2 minutes.

What on earth makes you think you'll get 17,500 people at $50? Meaningless games for draft order? Hate to break it to you, but very, very few people care about draft order that much. One losing team playing another gets you 10k at $20 a pop. Maybe. And absolutely no TV money, because who's going to put these games on TV while the real playoffs are on? You're going to lose money just by turning the lights and A/C on in the arena. Not to mention that the arenas are going to lose out on far more profitable acts than a barely half attended hockey game, which is kind of a big deal to a lot of teams and owners with a stake in arena revenues.

Put them in Canadian hockey cities. Hell, put it in Toronto every year. They never make the playoffs anyway. Or put it in QC every year.

And $20k is nothing for most players- they would much, much rather have the offseason come so they can get themselves back to health, spend time with family. Oh, and if you have byes (which, again, completely defeat the supposed point of this mess), that means that some teams wouldn't play for weeks and then would have to step on the ice for a game completely out of practice. So you have two teams on the ice who both suck, filled with players who don't want to be there, playing a game with virtually no meaning, and one team of which having not played in weeks. And you think that that would be exciting hockey? Not to mention the risk of injuries. The Players Association wouldn't take kindly to a proposal like this.

First two rounds, 2 days back to back right after the season. Second two rounds, 2 days back to back between Playoff Rounds 1 and 2. Final game between rounds 2 and 3. At most an extra 10 days for every team except the two who end up with the top two seeds.

Oh, and you're holding these during the real playoffs, right? Does the NHL really want any media attention whatsoever on low quality games full of empty arenas and disinterested players while they're trying very, very, hard to call the world's attention to the real playoffs, with some of the most intense and best quality hockey in the world?

No. That would be stupid. Which is why it would be an event in its own right.

It would be a joke and an embarrassment to the league in every media outlet that decided to cover it. Which they would, because a lot of the US media gets a kick out of mocking the NHL when it acts like a minor league.

Yep. Like that stupid game on New Year's Day. Outdoors. In baseball stadiums. Ridiculous! The nerve of those guys! Bettman should be hanged.

So you'd have bad hockey that nobody would watch...

Or, y'know, exciting hockey that a lot of people would watch. And maybe even travel to. QC is lovely in May.

...a system that basically reverses everything the draft is supposed to do unless you implement a system of byes that creates the exact same incentives to tank that you're trying to get rid of in the first place...

Oh, you mean a system very similar to the current system, except things are settled on the ice? Perish the thought.

...and players that would resent being asked to show up and risk career ending injury to play for a chance to draft their own replacement.

Which is what every single player on the Canes, Leafs, Yotes, Sabres, and Oilers are doing right now, except stretched out over three excruciating months.

 

[Sens1Canes2]

I can't tell if you're arguing because you think you're right, or just trying to annoy the ones who thought your idea was stupid.

 

[Revenge of the Sieve]

The only way to stop tanking would be to implement a Promotion/Relegation system like European soccer. A 1 year trip down to the AHL would surely make the Sabres/Yotes think twice about trading everything that wasn't nailed down.

But with the ownership and franchise model in the US, it will never happen.

 

[Boom Boom Apathy]

I'm not very optimistic for the short term future of the Hurricanes. But I really think Francis so far is showing he is committed to building this team for the long term success. Which I am super excited about once it comes to that time! He made some very smart moves this trade deadline. This is something Rutherford never really did in his tenure here,

While I do agree with the first part, the bolded part is not exactly true. Remember 09/10? At the deadline, Rutherford traded:

Ward: Pogge and a 4th
Corvo: Osala, Pothier, 2nd
Walker: 7th
Alberts: 3rd
Yelle: 6th
Cullen: 2nd and Picard
Wallin: 2nd

And he tried hard to sell Whitney for a 1st + prospect but the NTC prevented it. Now, as GP or somebody posted previously, all those picks basically amounted to almost nothing because of JR's mismanagement after that(I think only Riley Nash for that 2nd from Ottawa if I remember the post correctly), but JR did stockpile a ton of picks at that deadline.

Hopefully the difference between Francis and JR is yet to come. Francis has been preaching drafting and developing, growing a team for the long term, etc...which gives me hope.

 

[garnetpalmetto]

While I do agree with the first part, the bolded part is not exactly true. Remember 09/10? At the deadline, Rutherford traded:

Ward: Pogge and a 4th
Corvo: Osala, Pothier, 2nd
Walker: 7th
Alberts: 3rd
Yelle: 6th
Cullen: 2nd and Picard
Wallin: 2nd

And he tried hard to sell Whitney for a 1st + prospect but the NTC prevented it. Now, as GP or somebody posted previously, all those picks basically amounted to almost nothing because of JR's mismanagement after that(I think only Riley Nash for that 2nd from Ottawa if I remember the post correctly), but JR did stockpile a ton of picks at that deadline.

Hopefully the difference between Francis and JR is yet to come. Francis has been preaching drafting and developing, growing a team for the long term, etc...which gives me hope.

Yup, that was, indeed, me and that was, indeed, what the trade was for Nash. The only other prospects/players still actively with the organization that we netted from that trade deadline are Shugg and Levi and we still hold Osala's rights should he ever decide to return from the KHL.

One correction though, IIRC, was that the trade Whitney quashed was him to LA for Colton Teubert and a 2nd. Considering how Teubert turned out, I'm OK with that trade not going through.

I'm also hopeful of Francis' approach. This will be his second draft and second free agency period now and his first that he's had a full season to prep for. I'm fairly happy with how the trade deadline turned out, despite my earlier angry over the Tlusty trade (which I'll fully admit was more than likely caused by who he was traded to more than anything). I'm hoping that the Canes road to recovery is beginning just as I'm concerned the Pens are about to head down a road similar to the later Craig Patrick era.

 

[DaveG]

OTT 2nd: traded for Riley Nash - EDM drafted Martin Marincin
WSH 2nd: traded for Bobby Sanguinetti - CGY drafted Tyler Wotherspoon
SJ 2nd: drafted Mark Alt - traded to PHI to dump Brian Boucher
VAN 3rd: drafted Austin Levi
ANA 4th: drafted Justin Shugg
COL 6th: drafted Tyler Stahl
WSH 7th: traded for Jon Matsumoto - PHI drafted Richard Blidstrand

 

[Boom Boom Apathy]

OTT 2nd: traded for Riley Nash - EDM drafted Martin Marincin
WSH 2nd: traded for Bobby Sanguinetti - CGY drafted Tyler Wotherspoon
SJ 2nd: drafted Mark Alt - traded to PHI to dump Brian Boucher
VAN 3rd: drafted Austin Levi
ANA 4th: drafted Justin Shugg
COL 6th: drafted Tyler Stahl
WSH 7th: traded for Jon Matsumoto - PHI drafted Richard Blidstrand

These in Bold are classic JR.
1) Trading off the future in hopes of getting a guy "closer" to NHL ready
2) Throwing in picks/prospects to fix his mistakes.
3) Drafting Plymouth Whalers.

 

[garnetpalmetto]

These in Bold are classic JR.
1) Trading off the future in hopes of getting a guy "closer" to NHL ready
2) Throwing in picks/prospects to fix his mistakes.
3) Drafting Plymouth Whalers.

BTW anybody know what happened to Stahl? I know from reading his Twitter that he retired after finishing his junior career in Victoria, but what was behind the retirement?