Marc Staal

[Cassano]

I'm just glad Staal signed only slightly more AAV than Girardi, I was expecting numbers in the mid 6 range considering what Phaneuf received. Still, I am disappointed in the route they went in. I would've liked Sekera for this defense core, but now there is no way to accommodate him. This probably spells the end of Zuccs or Hags, maybe both for sure by the end of the season. Overall, Staal isn't a bad player but I am weary of this deal (not as much as Girardi though).

Considering the market for UFA dman like Orpik - this is a bargain, actually. Good deal, but not sure with the route the team will take.

 

[Rangerfan4life90]

I'm just glad Staal signed only slightly more AAV than Girardi, I was expecting numbers in the mid 6 range considering what Phaneuf received. Still, I am disappointed in the route they went in. I would've liked Sekera for this defense core, but now there is no way to accommodate him. This probably spells the end of Zuccs or Hags, maybe both for sure by the end of the season. Overall, Staal isn't a bad player but I am weary of this deal (not as much as Girardi though).

Considering the market for UFA dman like Orpik - this is a bargain, actually. Good deal, but not sure with the route the team will take.

Not necessarily.

 

[Pavel Buchnevich]

Quick answer: Staal starts more shifts in the D zone and ends more in the O zone then G. G also has the better D partner.
To me G and McD start the season slow then ramp it up in Dec.
Staal plays the same throughout the season some games better then others. G and McD like Hank start slow. You have to admit that G(along with most of the team) was pretty crappy to start the year, as he was last season. He just starts slow.
Staal had a freak injury and he has improved every season since. Is he the same Staal as before? No but he keeps getting better. His style of game is more conducive to a longer career then G, also his skating will keep him in the game longer. Will he get a concussion that ends his career? Who know, but that can happen with any player.
I just don't see the inconsistency in Staal, does he have bad games? Yes but all players do. I do not see him suck for 5 games in a row. Maybe 2.
I'll give G, heart and durability but outside of that Staal is the better player.

I'd call Staal's season to this point inconsistent. Started very poorly with some people wanting him off the team and questioning if he was even a #2LHD anymore(me included) and over the last 15-20 games, he's best very good.

Maybe we just view it differently. I think his defense is among the best in the NHL when he's on his game, but he has stretches where he looks really bad.

 

[Pavel Buchnevich]

For what reason?

You can ask them. I don't agree with them. I'm just pointing out that its more than just one.

 

[Cassano]

Not necessarily.

Zucc UFA looking for big raise and Hagelin RFA looking for raise too, no?

 

[Doctyl]

You can ask them. I don't agree with them. I'm just pointing out that its more than just one.

I think its just the PP time he gets that drives some posters crazy. Also if there was a dman in this organization (not named Mike Kostka) who would score/deflect the SC winning goal on Hank, or pull a Emelin and cause Hank to get injured I would bet it would be Girardi. Its not that I don't like him, its just his game blocks a lot of shots which also leads to potential deflections and he seems to have brain farts at the absolute worst times (game 1 OT SCF)

 

[Doctyl]

Zucc UFA looking for big raise and Hagelin RFA looking for raise too, no?

IDK about Zucc. He seems like he might take a bargain contract to stay in NY. Not sure what Hags wants either. Not much rumored about either's contract demands.

 

[Rangerfan4life90]

Isn't Hags a RFA? If so, he'll be a bit easier to resign.

 

[Pavel Buchnevich]

Isn't Hags a RFA? If so, he'll be a bit easier to resign.

Why should we re-sign him? I'd rather trade him. You are choosing to keep Hagelin over MSL, Zuccarello, Miller, Buchnevich and Duclair?

Probably only four spots will be open for six of them in the top six over the next couple of years. Maybe the three latter one's don't pan out, but if they do, I don't see how we can afford cap-wise to not have a few of them in the lineup with so many big contracts like Nash, Hank, Girardi and Staal. We can't just retain our whole team and give everyone a raise in salary. I don't think there's much of a way to make that work cap-wise. Some tough decisions will probably have to be made on players that are going to be free agents soon.

It would make a lot of sense to trade Hagelin at the draft to get picks, prospects or both.

 

[Rangerfan4life90]

Why should we re-sign him? I'd rather trade him. You are choosing to keep Hagelin over MSL, Zuccarello, Miller, Buchnevich and Duclair?

Probably only four spots will be open for six of them in the top six over the next couple of years. Maybe the three latter one's don't pan out, but if they do, I don't see how we can afford cap-wise to not have a few of them in the lineup with so many big contracts like Nash, Hank, Girardi and Staal. We can't just retain our whole team and give everyone a raise in salary. I don't think there's much of a way to make that work cap-wise. Some tough decisions will probably have to be made on players that are going to be free agents soon.

It would make a lot of sense to trade Hagelin at the draft to get picks, prospects or both.

Would rather keep Hags over MSL if it came down it. MSL's career is almost over, while Hags still has a long career ahead of him.

 

[Pavel Buchnevich]

Would rather keep Hags over MSL if it came down it. MSL's career is almost over, while Hags still has a long career ahead of him.

I'd only agree if St. Louis isn't willing to take a pay cut, but I'd prefer keeping neither if that was the case. I've not seen anything regarding Hagelin's demands when he becomes a UFA, but I think he's going to be seeking a lot of money. If thats the case, I'm not giving that to him. He's a good bottom six winger. I don't really think we can afford a very expensive bottom six winger, but maybe I'm wrong. I hope he wants something reasonable for the role he plays.

 

[Raspewtin]

How many other top pairing D in the league have:

Played 57 playoff games in the last 3 years?
Have averaged 25+ ATOI in those playoff games?
Missed a TOTAL of 5 regular season games in EIGHT years as 1st pairing D?

I'll never get tired of hearing how Girardi plays so many minutes and gets top matchups. Because every time, every single time, I give the same answer and it gets ignored. He doesn't do well against those matchups. He gets slaughtered in shot attempts against, and it's a real blood bath when McDonagh isn't his partner too. But I digress.

The whole "he doesn't miss games" mantra is totally irrelevant to his abilities as a player.

The whole team played 50+ games. Why does Girardi get singled out here?

Un****ingreal how under appreciated this dude is around here.

By all measures he's a glue guy in the room, took a discount to be here, bleeds for his team, never misses a game, always plays against the other team's best players, etc... and people act like he's trash.

I literally don't care about any of this, because none of this has anything to do with his player performance.

He's not Shea Weber. There's not a team in the league that wouldn't LOVE to him and he would've commanded more than 6 x 5.5 had he opted to go UFA.

I'd have been delighted to not give him what he would've gotten as a UFA if that were the case.

Why does him taking less money make him a good player anyway?

Staal has had quite a few stretches where he's looked glaringly bad - particularly earlier this year. These are guys that grew up here, have played here for years, took a discount to stay here. The NYR fan mentality of jettisoning solid NHL'ers for fancy new toys is thankfully gone from an organizational point of view.

Why is not thinking of Girardi as a great player "being obsessed with fancy new toys"?

The organization is stable and makes the playoffs every year because we're retaining guys like Staal, Girardi, Lundqvist, etc... Stability has been the Detroit model for years and it WORKS.

Yup, just like Detroit.

Did we win 4 Stanley Cups with superstars at each position that I slept through?

 

[Raspewtin]

This narrative that Staal is better defensively is something I haven't seen in a long time. Staal's one of the most inconsistent defenseman in the NHL. By what measure is Staal better defensively? Please give me an idea of how. Girardi blocks shots better, reads plays better, better at desperation defensive plays. Staal's better at using his stick and passing out of the zone. Girardi plays a lot more consistently and takes a lot less penalties. He's also a more physical player.

Staal is better defensively by literally every measure out there.

But the second someone mentions these measures, they'll get tossed aside as just stupid stats, and they will be told that they don't watch enough games.

Girardi is consistent, consistently below average.

I don't really look at possession-stats, so I couldn't tell you what Staal's are, but I'd suspect they aren't that great. I agree that he's better at clearing and passing the puck out of the zone than Girardi. That part of the game comes more naturally to him, but I don't think he's anything more than average at that.

They're a HELL of a lot better than Girardi's. That's for sure.

What does Girardi do that's above average other than block shots?

Their ages don't matter. What matters is how durable they are. Staal might be two years younger, but Girardi's likely to be playing at a high level for a much longer time. Staal's already breaking down in terms of talent and injuries. Girardi's not breaking down at all.

If this is Girardi playing at a high level, I'm terrified of what he'll become in two years.

While neither is good offensively, Girardi at least provides average offense for a Top 4 defenseman. If you were to look at the average points per season for a Top 4 defenseman around the league, I'd venture to say that Girardi's probably pretty close to the average. Staal's probably way below the average. Girardi's about a 10 point per season better than Staal at around 25 points to Staal's 15.

I'll take the difference because Staal is still a better player than Girardi.

I like that we are keeping Staal, but to say he's a lot better than Girardi is just something I can't understand.

You don't have to agree, but there's absolutely an argument to be made.

 

[Charlie Conway]

Just curious and throwing out a bit of a scenario--we saw McD play the right side at the Olympics. Any chance he and Staal become our top pairing? We'd have a 2nd-pairing hole for defense, but trading Girardi for a very good #3+ could be beneficial.

 

[Raspewtin]

Hey I agree with you completely. Endless rants about how Girardi is an awful player because of his possession stats and Staal is useless because no points and he is a pylon sometimes. Please.

Both of these guys would be first pair D men on more than half the teams in this league and both could've made over 6m as free agents, no doubt about it.


****ing Brooks Orpik got 5.5 x 5 and people are mad at Girardi getting 5.5 and Staal 5.7? Come on.

What's crazy is I don't give two ****s about Orpik's contract relative to Girardi's. Orpik is a **** defenseman making way too much money. Girardi is an average defenseman making too much money. Does Orpik being brutally overpaid mean I should be lighter on how I feel about Girardi?

I really want to know where all these fictional "Girardi is soooooooooooo awful" rants are that I just can't seem to find. Literally NOBODY thinks he's awful, including me. And anytime someone even MENTIONS the idea of him being overrated, they have spears aimed at them before they can finish a sentence.

I had to unfollow 3 or 4 people on twitter because of it. Endless *****ing about Girardi being a bad posession player, Marc Staal being a pylon, both not being worth contracts, should've let Staal walk and signed Jeff Petry to take his spot in the lineup. Like wtf kind of crap is that?

Yep. Those damn bloggers, having different opinions. What idiots.

 

[RangerBoy]

IDK about Zucc. He seems like he might take a bargain contract to stay in NY. Not sure what Hags wants either. Not much rumored about either's contract demands.

Zuccarello took a bargain contract? He signed for $3.5M to avoid arbitration after one good year.

 

[haohmaru]

I'll never get tired of hearing how Girardi plays so many minutes and gets top matchups. Because every time, every single time, I give the same answer and it gets ignored. He doesn't do well against those matchups. He gets slaughtered in shot attempts against, and it's a real blood bath when McDonagh isn't his partner too. But I digress.

Yeah, his performance was so terrible that they were 2nd in the league last year in GAA in the playoffs. 7th in 2012-13, and 3rd in 2011-12.

"Slaughtered". Yup. Got stats on quality shots against? It's also pretty indicative about how the Rangers haven't had a real first line center (along the lines of Getzlaf, Crosby, Girioux, etc...) in years. Stepan is getting there and "shots against" are indicative of how well your forwards are playing as well. Watched Girardi, and hockey, for decades. I trust my eyes.

The whole "he doesn't miss games" mantra is totally irrelevant to his abilities as a player.

It wasn't a statement about "his abilities as a player". It was about how dependable he is.

The whole team played 50+ games. Why does Girardi get singled out here?

He's been an integral part of a team that's played more playoff games than just about any team in the league for the last three years. 1st pairing D on a successful team. You're smart. The correlation here isn't hard to figure out.

I'd have been delighted to not give him what he would've gotten as a UFA if that were the case.

Why does him taking less money make him a good player anyway?

Again, wrong correlation. It doesn't make him a GOOD player it makes him a TEAM player.

Why is not thinking of Girardi as a great player "being obsessed with fancy new toys"?

Because you can't wait to ship him out of here and your solution was to retain Stralman and play him, or someone, on the right side that isn't a RD or sign a UFA. Or wasn't that what you said?

Yup, just like Detroit.

Did we win 4 Stanley Cups with superstars at each position that I slept through?

More like having the 2nd most playoff appearances since the first lockout (2005-2006) in the entire league. Only team in front of them? Detroit.

 

[NYRangerFan*]

How anybody can disagree with this deal is beyond me. His fancy stats probably aren't perfect but he has been a top 4 dman in a great defensive system for years. Not sure why people think they know more than the coaches/gms.

 

[haohmaru]

From Brooksie/NYP:

“In my opinion, Marc Staal is one of the best defenders in the league,” Vigneault said before Friday’s match. “You can play him against any top player and know he’s going to defend well, and he also makes the good first pass.
“I definitely appreciate having him on my team.”

^ gotta love it when a coach of Vigneault's stature says something like that about you

 

[Kovalev27]

Girardi gets slaughtered in top matchups there's a new one. Lol smh

All I cared about was getting Hank and this BLUELINE core signed along with Stepan and brassard. When step is signed I'll be happy.

Wings are interchangeable. The two main ones are nash and Kreider and they're under contract. Otherwise sure it hurts losing a good player but we've got kids that can fill them next year.

In fact Id be more interested in trading for Hanzel hes under contract a few years and solidifies our 3c position. Let's us move hayes over we've got miller and Duke ready next year as well.

 

[Kovalev27]

Miller Hanzel and Hayes as a third line could really wear U down.

 

[ReggieDunlop68]

How anybody can disagree with this deal is beyond me. His fancy stats probably aren't perfect but he has been a top 4 dman in a great defensive system for years. Not sure why people think they know more than the coaches/gms.

I agree with you on your assessment of the contract, but if people started to agree with the bolded statement, this site would be forced to shut down, so be careful what you wish for.

 

[Raspewtin]

Yeah, his performance was so terrible that they were 2nd in the league last year in GAA in the playoffs. 7th in 2012-13, and 3rd in 2011-12.

There's a guy in net that did his fair share of that work. And a 2nd pairing that you could argue was the best in the league. And one of the most underrated defensive forwards in the league going against the top centers night in and night out, effectively neutralizing them.

"Slaughtered". Yup. Got stats on quality shots against? It's also pretty indicative about how the Rangers haven't had a real first line center (along the lines of Getzlaf, Crosby, Girioux, etc...) in years. Stepan is getting there and "shots against" are indicative of how well your forwards are playing as well. Watched Girardi, and hockey, for decades. I trust my eyes.

They're called scoring chances, lol. I can't find SCF/A anywhere but I'm sure it exists somewhere.

What I can find though, is that players take a lot of shots and attempts while Girardi is on the ice. Over time, more shots against means more goals. It's a regression to the mean kind of thing. In the long run, quality of shot doesn't matter much, as if you're going keep playing with fire, you'll be burned eventually. That "eventually" can greatly vary in risk though.

It wasn't a statement about "his abilities as a player". It was about how dependable he is.

I'm discussing his abilities as a player.

He's been an integral part of a team that's played more playoff games than just about any team in the league for the last three years. 1st pairing D on a successful team. You're smart. The correlation here isn't hard to figure out.

And, in my opinion, he's average and we would be more successful with a better option there.

Again, wrong correlation. It doesn't make him a GOOD player it makes him a TEAM player.

Still wasn't what I was discussing before.

Because you can't wait to ship him out of here and your solution was to retain Stralman and play him, or someone, on the right side that isn't a RD or sign a UFA. Or wasn't that what you said?

I mean I really wanted to retain Stralman and if I had it my way I would trade Girardi (if we still had Stralman). But having an opinion on how the team should be changed doesn't correlate to "oooooh shiny new toyz". That would be like making a trade for no purpose other than make a trade. If I suggest a trade or roster move, it's because I think it'll improve the team.

And not for nothing, but Stralman was on our team for 3 years......hardly a shiny new toy.

More like having the 2nd most playoff appearances since the first lockout (2005-2006) in the entire league. Only team in front of them? Detroit.

The difference between Detroit and the Rangers is that Detroit retained superstar players, while the Rangers are just retaining above average players + Lundqvist and McDonagh. Obvi it's no coincidence Detroit has 4 stanley cups over the span of 11 years.

It's a silly comparison imo.

 

[Cassano]

How anybody can disagree with this deal is beyond me. His fancy stats probably aren't perfect but he has been a top 4 dman in a great defensive system for years. Not sure why people think they know more than the coaches/gms.

Probably because it's a sports team and this is a sports forum. Throughout history, all GM's have made bad decisions, especially Glen Sather in his NYR tenure. Not everything they do is the correct/right decision.

 

[Hunter Gathers]

Rapetwin's argument on Girardi is exactly why I roll my eyes when people rely solely on "advanced" stats.