Marc Bergevin: Offseason Fork in the Road Edition

[admiralcadillac]

What happens? Incompetence.

I guess most GMs are completely incompetent according to Hfboards experts.

 

[417]

I guess most GMs are completely incompetent according to Hfboards experts.

If you scroll through most teams boards here...that's exactly the conclusion you'll reach lol

 

[NotProkofievian]

Being a GM isn't a job that you can ''work at'' and so long as you punch the clock, and do the work, and do your best, and that's all that can be expected of you. Many noble professions are like this, but some are not. Being a GM is a bit like being a pro-poker player. All you can do is make the right decisions, and the cards fall as they may. Here's the reality of poker: 90% of people are losing players, and even the journeymen pros barely have an edge. Very few players make a lot of money. Similarly, very few GM's are able to make enough good decisions to significantly better the performance of their team on the ice.

That's just reality. Most GM's are f***ing garbage. A few are not.

 

[admiralcadillac]

Being a GM isn't a job that you can ''work at'' and so long as you punch the clock, and do the work, and do your best, and that's all that can be expected of you. Many noble professions are like this, but some are not. Being a GM is a bit like being a pro-poker player. All you can do is make the right decisions, and the cards fall as they may. Here's the reality of poker: 90% of people are losing players, and even the journeymen pros barely have an edge. Very few players make a lot of money. Similarly, very few GM's are able to make enough good decisions to significantly better the performance of their team on the ice.

That's just reality. Most GM's are ****ing garbage. A few are not.

30 out of 31 gms a year are garbage.

 

[Runner77]

Hate when that happens.

Although it can make for great entertainment, like in the movie Annie Hall where some guy was pontificating how he was an expert on Marshall McLuhan. And then Woody Allen brings in McLuhan:

 

[jaffy27]

Jaf, you're on record saying you'd be really disappointed if he doesn't improve the team this off-season and you've agreed that so far he has done diddly squat to improve the team. If I were you I'd hold off painting this team's future as bright. You might be reminded that you said you'd want MB fired if he did nothing to improve the team. Well, he has done nothing. And drafting doesn't count. That's the amateur scouting staff's job.

The team is slightly worse as of today, and I’ve been on record saying that if he doesn’t spend to the cap and improve the team I’d want him gone, I stand by that.

But we are 2 months away from training camp, lots can happen in between.

Still, it doesn’t take away the fact that we are on the rise.

 

[Runner77]

I guess most GMs are completely incompetent according to Hfboards experts.

We have experts in here? Where are they?

 

[Runner77]

The team is slightly worse as of today, and I’ve been on record saying that if he doesn’t spend to the cap and improve the team I’d want him gone, I stand by that.

But we are 2 months away from training camp, lots can happen in between.

Still, it doesn’t take away the fact that we are on the rise.

So if they start next season with the same or similar lineup, you're done with Bergevin?

If he spends to the cap by adding more Chiarot-types, that's not necessarily an indication of improvement. He still needs to fill that first pairing LD spot and I think we can use another sniper on the PP. I would want them to not rush Caufield.

 

[jaffy27]

He said the exact same thing to me a year ago. There was no way MB would not use the cap space to impove the team and go into the season with all those millions of cap space. When he did where was Jaffy27 owning up?

No, I said if he doesn’t acquire a centre I’d want him gone, and KK didn’t count.

He went and got Domi and acquired Tatar and Suzuki......I never mentioned he had to spend up to the cap, that’s this years demand on my part.

Get your stories straight next time

 

[jaffy27]

So if they start next season with the same or similar lineup, you're done with Bergevin?

If he spends to the cap by adding more Chiarot-types, that's not necessarily an indication of improvement. He still needs to fill that first pairing LD spot and I think we can use another sniper on the PP. I would want them to not rush Caufield.

If it’s status quo....gone
If it’s more Chiarot.....gone

Flip side of the coin now

If he does spend to the cap and adds a significant player, you on board with Bergy??

 

[NotProkofievian]

30 out of 31 gms a year are garbage.

Well, I suppose that's as close as we're going to get to having you admit, finally, that Bergevin is not a good GM.

 

[NotProkofievian]

If it’s status quo....gone
If it’s more Chiarot.....gone

Flip side of the coin now

If he does spend to the cap and adds a significant player, you on board with Bergy??

I'm on board with good moves, and I don't give a shit who makes them.

 

[Habs Icing]

Hate when that happens.

Although it can make for great entertainment, like in the movie Annie Hall where some guy was pontificating how he was an expert on Marshall McLuhan. And then Woody Allen brings in McLuhan:

Runner, you realize I tampered with his original post in order to make a joke? If you check, he even liked my post. In other words he laughed.

 

[Runner77]

If it’s status quo....gone
If it’s more Chiarot.....gone

Flip side of the coin now

If he does spend to the cap and adds a significant player, you on board with Bergy??

I judge him on a move by move basis. I always give him credit for good moves and will call out his questionable moves. And when I don't have enough info to make a decision, then I give him the benefit of the doubt until I do.

The reason I've adopted this approach is on account of his many years where he's made several subpar moves, made several promises and lied about them. That said, I've really liked what he's done last summer and have always given him credit for it.

 

[admiralcadillac]

Well, I suppose that's as close as we're going to get to having you admit, finally, that Bergevin is not a good GM.

Does anyone slot into your definition if a good GM? Can you come up with one?

 

[Runner77]

Runner, you realize I tampered with his original post in order to make a joke? If you check, he even liked my post. In other words he laughed.

I was too lazy to look up whether he had made those posts.

I can't believe I trusted you. You got me.

 

[417]

Being a GM isn't a job that you can ''work at'' and so long as you punch the clock, and do the work, and do your best, and that's all that can be expected of you. Many noble professions are like this, but some are not. Being a GM is a bit like being a pro-poker player. All you can do is make the right decisions, and the cards fall as they may. Here's the reality of poker: 90% of people are losing players, and even the journeymen pros barely have an edge. Very few players make a lot of money. Similarly, very few GM's are able to make enough good decisions to significantly better the performance of their team on the ice.

That's just reality. Most GM's are ****ing garbage. A few are not.

So you don't think a GM can work at his craft and "get better"?

 

[the]

If you scroll through most teams boards here...that's exactly the conclusion you'll reach lol

That’s something that always annoyed me with this place.

It’s even worst for coaches, it’s a rare sight when you see a coach being praised.

 

[admiralcadillac]

So you don't think a GM can work at his craft and "get better"?

Not when irrational hatred sets in.

Past bad moves don’t make recent moves bad.

 

[Habs Icing]

30 out of 31 gms a year are garbage.

Everyone is entitled to be garbage occasionally. But MB has been here for seven years and almost 8 off-seasons. He has been non-garbage for only one of those years and off-seasons. Year in and year out MB has shown he is incapable of building a winner. This off-season he had a magnificent opportunity to prove his detractors wrong. All we hear are crickets coming from his office. It's true he has about two more months to improve his team, but he chased Duchene and Aho - halfheartedly - so it looks like it's time he sits on his thumbs and catches his breath.

You might be satisfied with what other incompetent GMs do with other teams but some of us are not. This is the Montreal Canadiens. We shouldn't be satisfied with mediocre management.

 

[Habs Icing]

I was too lazy to look up whether he had made those posts.

I can't believe I trusted you. You got me.

You see! That's where you made your biggest mistake.

 

[417]

Everyone is entitled to be garbage occasionally. But MB has been here for seven years and almost 8 off-seasons. He has been non-garbage for only one of those years and off-seasons. Year in and year out MB has shown he is incapable of building a winner. This off-season he had a magnificent opportunity to prove his detractors wrong.

I think the damage is done for most detractors, there's nothing he could do to swing the tide - which is fine, it is what it is.

All we hear are crickets coming from his office.

What would you like to hear coming from his office at this point?

It's true he has about two more months to improve his team, but he chased Duchene and Aho - halfheartedly - so it looks like it's time he sits on his thumbs and catches his breath.

Halfheartedly?

Jeez...tough crowd man.

Matt Duchene WANTED to sign in Nashville, he's even intimated that it came close with another team, who we all know is the Montreal Canadiens. I mean, at a certain point, it's up to the player and in this case, he chose Nashville.

As for Sebastien Aho? Is there another GM who attempted to acquire Aho via offer sheet that i'm not aware of? To call what was a solid attempt at acquiring a player via offer sheet, as a "halfhearted attempt", IMO, is harsh.

You might be satisfied with what other incompetent GMs do with other teams but some of us are not. This is the Montreal Canadiens. We shouldn't be satisfied with mediocre management.

This IS the Montreal Canadiens...and I think until we win a Stanley Cup, we'll never been satisfied with management, regardless of whose sitting in that chair. It's been that way for as long as i've been a Hab fan, and I doubt that's ever going to change.

 

[NotProkofievian]

So you don't think a GM can work at his craft and "get better"?

No. Reading the rest of the post makes the meaning clear. Of course you can improve, but the fact that you are at the ''poker table'' doesn't mean that you will. There are jobs where there is a concrete task to be done, and you are good at that job in so far as you complete those tasks. A GM might improve their decision making, but that doesn't just happen by completing GM tasks. To take the analogy further, you don't get better as a poker player by calling, raising, betting, folding, even though you are doing poker player tasks. You get better by considering when it is wise to do all of those actions and doing them when a profitable opportunity presents itself.

Whereas in some other job, say a baker, you have set tasks to complete. At this time, the dough goes in the proofer, at this time it comes out, at this time it goes in the oven, at this time it goes in the cooling rack. You are a good baker or not based on whether those tasks are completed.

A lot of people who still, to this day, think Bergevin is a good GM judge him by the latter standards. I'm not making a judgement about professions here, I'm just saying that what makes you ''good'' in one profession doesn't make you good in the same way in all professions.

 

[Habs Icing]

I'm on board with good moves, and I don't give a **** who makes them.

If it’s status quo....gone
If it’s more Chiarot.....gone

Flip side of the coin now

If he does spend to the cap and adds a significant player, you on board with Bergy??

I wouldn't be on board. Example if he had signed Duchene. He would have spent to the cap but would not have improved the team much.

My biggest beef with MB is that he doesn't know how to improve the team. Getting a power forward, a left PMD and a legit backup improves the team much more than getting Duchene, Chiarot and Kinkaid. The problem is that MB is a GM of half measures. Even if he had won the Aho offer sheet, he'd have gone with Aho, Chiarot and Kinkaid and left the other lineup holes pending.

 

[417]

No. Reading the rest of the post makes the meaning clear. Of course you can improve, but the fact that you are at the ''poker table'' doesn't mean that you will. There are jobs where there is a concrete task to be done, and you are good at that job in so far as you complete those tasks. A GM might improve their decision making, but that doesn't just happen by completing GM tasks. To take the analogy further, you don't get better as a poker player by calling, raising, betting, folding, even though you are doing poker player tasks. You get better by considering when it is wise to do all of those actions and doing them when a profitable opportunity presents itself.

Whereas in some other job, say a baker, you have set tasks to complete. At this time, the dough goes in the proofer, at this time it comes out, at this time it goes in the oven, at this time it goes in the cooling rack. You are a good baker or not based on whether those tasks are completed.

A lot of people who still, to this day, think Bergevin is a good GM judge him by the latter standards. I'm not making a judgement about professions here, I'm just saying that what makes you ''good'' in one profession doesn't make you good in the same way in all professions.

I used the wrong term, because I generally agree with your post...which is why I think how bad Bergevin is according to most here is totally overblown.

The question I should have asked is, do you think GM's can learn from past mistakes in order to try to avoid similar pitfalls in the future?

Which really, doesn't even guarantee it won't happen again mind you.