Marc Bergevin - More Excuses Needed... Edition Pt 2

[ahmedou]

Its ok to believe in that as a fan, especially when the team you cheer for is garbage. Its another thing when thats the plan your head executive is openly promoting.

Is it the way Molson hires staff for his business too ? “look Geoff, we’ll produce beer that tastes like vomit, but once the bottle is on the shelf, anything can happen. At the end of the day, some people might buy it !”

That's a simple example to understand it much deeply

 

[Pickles]

The Habs handled those 4 teams (Colorado, Dallas, Carolina, Islanders) pretty well during regular seasons. Montreal has better offensive depth than all of those teams. The D squad is comparable to Colorado and the Islanders. Montreal has at least as much elite talent as Carolina and the Islanders, just not at the same positions. You're the one kidding yourself if you think the Habs would not have a chance against those teams in a 7 games series.

And you're kidding yourself that they would. Records against those teams don't mean much once the playoffs start. The Islanders took out the Pens without breaking a sweat and you think the Habs would beat them? I don't think they'd have much chance against Colorado because they have elite talent up front they'd shred our defense in a 7 game series. Dallas also has elite talent up front. We don't have 1 forward I'd consider elite. We have a collection of very good talent but no game breakers like Benn, Macinnon or Barazal. Hopefully KK develops into a player like that one day. Drouin too if he ever takes his head out of his ass.

Perhaps they could take out Carolina but they're putting up a decent fight against the Stanley Cup Champs.

Like I said before the Habs have a difficult time scoring goals in the playoffs.

 

[teamfirst]

Plan the parade.

Cool. will call you if i need some help

 

[teamfirst]

Its ok to believe in that as a fan, especially when the team you cheer for is garbage. Its another thing when thats the plan your head executive is openly promoting.

Is it the way Molson hires staff for his business too ? “look Geoff, we’ll produce beer that tastes like vomit, but once the bottle is on the shelf, anything can happen. At the end of the day, some people might buy it !”

Case of a guy replying without comprehending the main part of the discussion, your post has nothing to do with my post

 

[WatchfulElm]

And you're kidding yourself that they would. Records against those teams don't mean much once the playoffs start. The Islanders took out the Pens without breaking a sweat and you think the Habs would beat them? Perhaps they could take out Carolina but they're putting up a decent fight against the Stanley Cup Champs.

Like I said before the Habs have a difficult time scoring goals in the playoffs.

The Habs would be competitive against the Isles. I'm not saying they would beat them.

The Habs have a difficult time scoring goals in the playoffs? You mean historically? Or the last few playoffs games they played? (6 games in 2017, 12 games in 2015) That's a very small samples, from a completely different roster. There's only 8 skaters remaining from the 2017 edition, and 3 from 2015. Truth is we have no idea how the current roster would perform.

 

[Miller Time]

I don't see how anyone, MB included, could watch the playoffs and think this roster he's assembled would have anything but insanely small odds to survive a 7-game series, let alone multiple.

Price playing like Hasek in his prime, maybe, gets us a round, or two, but overall, the level of skill and grit on display dwarfs what our paper thin D could handle, and we have nothing close to the game breaking talent up front most of these teams have.

While any actual plan would be nice (using trades/Cap space-UFA to add talent to compete asap or commit to a rebuild/re-tool & focus on stockpiling high picks/top young talent), these playoffs further reinforce my view that the re-tool/re-build approach is what we need....

Suck it up, focus this offseason & next season on adding 2019 & 2020 first round picks, and target 2021-22 as the start of a PO / contending run...

 

[WatchfulElm]

Cinderalla teams happen. But in order to win, you don't build a team with the hope that you become a Cinderalla team.

And define what you think is a Cinderella team. The Kings that won a Cup, MOST people were saying that if there was one team to be able to go far it's them. St-Louis vs Coyotes this year....is St-Louis a Cinderella team? Or is everybody knew St-Louis would win 'cause Coyotes had a really bad stretch and that the St-Louis with Jake Allen is in no way related to the St-Louis with Binnington.

A cinderella team is simply a team that defies expectations and go further than everybody thought possible in the playoffs.

If you go back right before the 2012 playoffs, I don't think you would find many people predicting the Kings to go that far. They were certainly not among the top 8 or 9 contenders. So I would consider them a cinderella team.

The Blues this year? They were 1 point away from leading their division and have one of the best (if not the best) record in the NHL since christmas. They are a contender.

thanks to you, every single upset from now on is a cinderella story!

congrats!

Columbus beating TB : cinderella story
Avs beating Flames : cindirella story
Stars beating Preds : cinderella story.

Only if you distort everything I said and make a deliberate effort to act with as much bad faith as possible.

 

[Pickles]

The Habs would be competitive against the Isles. I'm not saying they would beat them.

The Habs have a difficult time scoring goals in the playoffs? You mean historically? Or the last few playoffs games they played? (6 games in 2017, 12 games in 2015) That's a very small samples, from a completely different roster. There's only 8 skaters remaining from the 2017 edition, and 3 from 2015. Truth is we have no idea how the current roster would perform.

You might not have said it but you sure did imply it like regular season records really matter. Did you forget how we couldn't score against the Rangers in 2017? 11 goals in 6 playoff games. Yes I understand the roster is different and so is the mindset they played hard this year just to be a bubble team. I'm sorry but I just don't think they have enough talent to go far in the playoffs this season. Who aside from Price and Weber would you consider elite on this team? I see a collection of good players but no game breakers each of the teams you mentioned has a couple with the exception of Carolina pehaps.

 

[WatchfulElm]

You might not have said it but you sure did imply it like regular season records really matter. Did you forget how we couldn't score against the Rangers in 2017? 11 goals in 6 playoff games. Yes I understand the roster is different and so is the mindset they played hard this year just to be a bubble team. I'm sorry but I just don't think they have enough talent to go far in the playoffs this season. Who aside from Price and Weber would you consider elite on this team? I see a collection of good players but no game breakers each of the teams you mentioned has a couple with the exception of Carolina pehaps.

I don't believe they could go far this year either, not arguing that. Unless, of course, they go on an unexpected cinderella run. But who exactly is elite with the Islanders? That's a well coached team, but on paper, they are worse than Montreal. Speaking of Cinderella teams, this could be one if they reach the 3rd round.

 

[417]

Koivu, Kovalev, and Tanguay were replaced by Gomez, Cammalleri, and Gionta
Souray was replaced by Hamrlik
Streit who was playing wing for us was replaced by Tanguay
Lang was never a core player for us

He let Souray walk as a UFA, while he was having a career year, during a season where the Habs missed the playoffs.

As for the rest...none of these "replacements" were upgrades. I give Gainey a ton of credit for bringing back respectability to the Habs.

But I'm not going to give him credit for rearranging deck chairs.

Let's look at Bergevin
Ryder -> Briere
Vanek -> Parenteau
Gionta -> Sekac
Radulov -> Drouin
Markov - Streit

I never said Bergevin was or is any better, my whole point is they've both been average at best as GMs of this team.

It's night and day, for the most part Gainey adequetly replaced the guys he lost, Bergevin didn't

I don't think he adequately replaced anyone.

The crown jewel of his remodeling plan was bought out a few years later, Cammalleri was traded during a game, Gionta was/is arguably the most forgettable and non-descript captain this organization has ever had.

As for rewriting history, the team Gainey inherited had made the playoffs 2 times in the last 5 years, under Gainey/Gauthier they made the playoffs 6 times in 8 years, and the team they suppodely left a tattered wreck was untouched and finished 4th overall. Meanwhile the trend line during Bergevin's tenure is decreasing at 0.9 year over year and we've now missed the playoffs 3 of the past 4 years.

The Habs had an 11-22 record in the playoffs...that the end of the story.

There's no need to dress it up any other way just to spite Bergevin. You're trying too hard man.

You should be able to evaluate Bergevin's performance as a GM without having to gloss over or prop up some of the terrible moves Gainey made before stepping down.

Gainey's tenure as a GM isn't very difficult to dissect.

Pre-trajedy? He was great...

Post-trajedy? He was awful...

The sum of these 2 things is a very average tenure as GM of this team.

 

[417]

Now it's like you are being intentionally obtuse...

Koivu, - gomez
Kovalev, - cammalleri
Souray, - hamrlik
Streit, - Spacek
Tanguay - gionta
Lang? ... Why even mention him, Gainey brought him in for 1 season... But if you must, Metropolit/Moore

Are these supposed to be endorsements of Gainey orrrr????

You realize that my question was rhetorical right?

Btw I mentioned Lang because Gainey traded a 2nd round pick for him, only to lose him for nothing (common theme) 1yr later...

Wasted assets

Streit had a 62pt season his last year with the Habs, he signed with the Isles and over the next few seasons was an extremely productive Dman for them....meanwhile Gainey replaced him with Jaroslav Spacek.

Taguay - Gionta??

That should actually read "1st round pick + 2nd round pick and Tanguay - Gionta"

Like I said earlier, go ahead and play this game of charades...I'm done feeding this troll.

Like, come on... Why waste time with silly posts like that?

I wasn't even responding to you lol the appropriate question would be why you bother to respond to a post that's not even directed at you, that you find silly?

That's the real wonder.

 

[Miller Time]

Are these supposed to be endorsements of Gainey orrrr????

You realize that my question was rhetorical right?

Btw I mentioned Lang because Gainey traded a 2nd round pick for him, only to lose him for nothing (common theme) 1yr later...

Wasted assets

Streit had a 62pt season his last year with the Habs, he signed with the Isles and over the next few seasons was an extremely productive Dman for them....meanwhile Gainey replaced him with Jaroslav Spacek.

Taguay - Gionta??

That should actually read "1st round pick + 2nd round pick and Tanguay - Gionta"

Like I said earlier, go ahead and play this game of charades...I'm done feeding this troll.


I wasn't even responding to you lol the appropriate question would be why you bother to respond to a post that's not even directed at you, that you find silly?

That's the real wonder.

because it's a message board... so if you make ridiculous posts, you shouldn't be surprised to have them called out and exposed for what they are...

Again, you seem incapable of getting your mind around very simple ideas...

Gainey was not a great GM.

He was superior to MB in every way.

One of those ways, was his ability to address roster issues and replace lost players/roles at least adequately.

You posted a list of players in a completely failed attempt at contradicting that very evident reality. I pointed out, player for player, just how wrong you were.

Whether or not the transactions to address those roster issues were good, bad or somewhere in between as far as asset management, is a completely separate argument. Your point had zero merit, and was exposed as such. Try again.

 

[Miller Time]

The sum of these 2 things is a very average tenure as GM of this team.

And "average" is light years ahead of what MB's tenure has been.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

Goals are a better predictor than analytics. especially when ppl who call it analytics simply mean shots

Actually, they aren’t.

 

[BehindTheTimes]

Actually, they aren’t.

I've read a couple of studies that say they are. I will try to find the links and repost. At the hospital, on my phone, right now, but I will look when available. Shots vs goals was close, but goal differential was predictive of future success more than shot attempts.

 

[Kriss E]

I don't believe they could go far this year either, not arguing that. Unless, of course, they go on an unexpected cinderella run. But who exactly is elite with the Islanders? That's a well coached team, but on paper, they are worse than Montreal. Speaking of Cinderella teams, this could be one if they reach the 3rd round.

Worse than us on paper? I think that's just based on not knowing the Isles very well. Pretty sure they can look at our roster and also say “habs aren't better”.

Habs are below average team.

 

[sharks9]

Worse than us on paper? I think that's just based on not knowing the Isles very well. Pretty sure they can look at our roster and also say “habs aren't better”.

Habs are below average team.

14th overall team isn't below average.

 

[Runner77]

Well yeah, he had 7 years worth of opportunities to behave like a great GM... He isn't one.

But what I meant is in the NHL world it is considered acceptable to do nothing if your team is on the fringe (personally I think it's a moronic approach). The media and a lot of people within the fanbase were fine with what Bergevin did in the last two months leading to the trade deadline and the justification was the team position and expectations. He won't have that as a safety net next year.

Geoff is the kind of pansy that makes safety nets a renewable thing. I know he shouldn't have one but let's face it, if he wasn't fired after that disaster of a season in 2017-18, nothing else will.

 

[sharks9]

What about finishing 9th out of 16th?

Did the schedule change when I wasn't looking? I didn't realize we never played anyone outside the Eastern Conference

 

[Kriss E]

Did the schedule change when I wasn't looking? I didn't realize we never played anyone outside the Eastern Conference

We play the East a lot more dont we?
(mod) Things can influence where you sit in the standings.
Anyways, you're arguing over semantics...Habs have a lot to improve on.

 

[sharks9]

We play the East a lot more dont we?
Things can influence where you sit in the standings.
Anyways, you're arguing over semantics...Habs have a lot to improve on.

We're competing for the Cup against Western teams as well. They're competing with the Habs for players to improve their teams, not sure why we should pretend they don't exist.

So what's so mature about only looking at the Eastern Conference? Or what stats are you looking at beyond the standings that paint the Habs as a below-average team? Other than your own opinion of course.

 

[Kriss E]

We're competing for the Cup against Western teams as well. They're competing with the Habs for players to improve their teams, not sure why we should pretend they don't exist.

So what's so mature about only looking at the Eastern Conference? Or what stats are you looking at beyond the standings that paint the Habs as a below-average team? Other than your own opinion of course.

They missed the POs, they were in bottom 5 previous year, and pretty much everything seemed to work well for them this year, yet they still couldn't cut it.
That, and then I look at their roster, no game breaking talent, an aging #1...Of course, you can also not watch a single game and simply look at the overall standings to determine where a team stands.

And nobody ever said to pretend the West dont exist. Let me ask you, if we played in Western Conference, do we finish with 96pts too?

 

[ECWHSWI]

A cinderella team is simply a team that defies expectations and go further than everybody thought possible in the playoffs.

If you go back right before the 2012 playoffs, I don't think you would find many people predicting the Kings to go that far. They were certainly not among the top 8 or 9 contenders. So I would consider them a cinderella team.

The Blues this year? They were 1 point away from leading their division and have one of the best (if not the best) record in the NHL since christmas. They are a contender.



Only if you distort everything I said and make a deliberate effort to act with as much bad faith as possible.

So, it's about going further than people thought yet Columbus beating Tampa is NOT a cinderella story ? even though most thought they'd lose ?

and when it comes to the Blues it's not about expectations, it's all about their record ? (Vegas was all about expectations right, even though their record had them 5th in the league)


conversation over. waste of time.

 

[Habs Halifax]

But they have the weapons to compete, unlike us.

True but our top talent is young. Don't underestimate our speed game.

 

[DAChampion]

A cinderella team is simply a team that defies expectations and go further than everybody thought possible in the playoffs.

If you go back right before the 2012 playoffs, I don't think you would find many people predicting the Kings to go that far. They were certainly not among the top 8 or 9 contenders. So I would consider them a cinderella team.

The Blues this year? They were 1 point away from leading their division and have one of the best (if not the best) record in the NHL since christmas. They are a contender.



Only if you distort everything I said and make a deliberate effort to act with as much bad faith as possible.

Lots of people were hyping the Kings in 2012.

They were a great team that underperformed in the regular season, and then they added Jeff Carter.