Marc Bergevin: Draft 2020 (XVI)

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Sorinth

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We had a top 5 prospect pool by 2014...

No evidence of his "learning"...

Still hasn't added a 1st round pick, despite *4 of 5 years as a non-playoff team... (*COVID saving his ass & costing us a top 10 pick).

"Much better"? I don't consider a lottery picking finish an "improvement".

Considering we got Suzuki a year after he got drafted in the 1st round I'm not sure the "hasn't added a 1st round pick" is a fair complaint. It might technically be true but clearly that trade was clearly within the same spirit. So it actually weakens your argument since it comes across as you having to nit-pick to find issues when we both know the issue goes well beyond.

Personally I don't think he's learnt anything, though he's almost certainly getting better advice then he was previously. But yeah we aren't in a better place now then we were in 2012 and it goes to show how far the bar has been lowered since 2011.
 
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Miller Time

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Considering we got Suzuki a year after he got drafted in the 1st round I'm not sure the "hasn't added a 1st round pick" is a fair complaint. It might technically be true but clearly that trade was clearly within the same spirit. So it actually weakens your argument since it comes across as you having to nit-pick to find issues when we both know the issue goes well beyond.

Personally I don't think he's learnt anything, though he's almost certainly getting better advice then he was previously. But yeah we aren't in a better place now then we were in 2012 and it goes to show how far the bar has been lowered since 2011.

i disagree. I consider clarity a part of building strong arguments, not the latter...

there is a difference between adding a first round pick and adding a player that was drafted in the first round, that's not a semantic debate or argument in the least.

You might feel that there is no difference between adding prospects or picks, that is a separate argument entirely.
 
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Sorinth

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i disagree. I consider clarity a part of building strong arguments, not the latter...

there is a difference between adding a first round pick and adding a player that was drafted in the first round, that's not a semantic debate or argument in the least.

You might feel that there is no difference between adding prospects or picks, that is a separate argument entirely.

By making a distinction between a 1st round pick and prospect who was drafted in the 1st round one year ago you weaken your argument because the argument isn't about draft picks it's about rebuilding/resetting/retooling. Using a technicality to ignore a good rebuilding move shows that you just want to make Bergevin look as bad as possible. Showing bias like that makes your argument less persuasive.

Ironically I actually agree with your sentiment, Bergevin hasn't learnt anything. But the argument should be getting 1 good pick/prospect is not a rebuild, and if you look at the other moves we can see he hasn't learnt anything. The guy you originally responded too talks about how keeping Markov in 2012 was a mistake, yet we just re-signed Petry which goes to show Bergevin hasn't changed we are still keeping our good vets instead of dealing them for futures.
 
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Nazzlind

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hey guys, I'm looking for an interview where Bergevin said an advanced stat he builds his around is winning board battles.

Anyone know what I'm talking about and can help me find a link to it?
 

Kriss E

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By making a distinction between a 1st round pick and prospect who was drafted in the 1st round one year ago you weaken your argument because the argument isn't about draft picks it's about rebuilding/resetting/retooling. Using a technicality to ignore a good rebuilding move shows that you just want to make Bergevin look as bad as possible. Showing bias like that makes your argument less persuasive.

Ironically I actually agree with your sentiment, Bergevin hasn't learnt anything. But the argument should be getting 1 good pick/prospect is not a rebuild, and if you look at the other moves we can see he hasn't learnt anything. The guy you originally responded too talks about how keeping Markov in 2012 was a mistake, yet we just re-signed Petry which goes to show Bergevin hasn't changed we are still keeping our good vets instead of dealing them for futures.

Not necessarily. The point is 1st picks+top prospects are expected to be added to any team that's rebuilding. Doesn't matter if it's a prospect a year removed from his draft, or 3 years after, so long as he's a high end prospect. That's one thing. Adding draft picks is another category. You expect both.
 

Sorinth

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Not necessarily. The point is 1st picks+top prospects are expected to be added to any team that's rebuilding. Doesn't matter if it's a prospect a year removed from his draft, or 3 years after, so long as he's a high end prospect. That's one thing. Adding draft picks is another category. You expect both.

It's not so much a question of expecting both, it's more that you expect more then 1 such move, so it just naturally ends up being both most of the time.

There's no need to try and make Bergevin look bad through biased/cherry picking. It's far more persuasive to make the honest critique of pointing out that in our 5 years of trying to rebuild/reset/retool we've made 1 rebuilding move of any kind of significance.
 

Kriss E

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It's not so much a question of expecting both, it's more that you expect more then 1 such move, so it just naturally ends up being both most of the time.

There's no need to try and make Bergevin look bad through biased/cherry picking. It's far more persuasive to make the honest critique of pointing out that in our 5 years of trying to rebuild/reset/retool we've made 1 rebuilding move of any kind of significance.

Meh....he didn't get any first round pick or he only made one significant rebuild move...pretty much the same.
Him not adding a 1st round pick is actually a fact, how many significant move he made is an opinion.

Anyways, his rebuild has been rather unimpressive to say the least. He lucked out on this year as COVID hit and reshaped a lot of things that put Habs in a position to be more attractive/interesting. Kudos to him for taking advantage of it, although there's still a risk factor.
 
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Belial

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hey guys, I'm looking for an interview where Bergevin said an advanced stat he builds his around is winning board battles.

Anyone know what I'm talking about and can help me find a link to it?

I don't recall him saying that but even if he did, are those types of stats even available anywhere?
 

Doc McKenna

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Jan 5, 2009
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This loser (based on losing seasons, not a personal dig, although) is longest tenured Habs GM to never win a god damn thing. Why he gets the benefit of the doubt makes no sense. He will never be a GM of another franchise once hes done here.
I don't know, maybe not head GM, but he will always be an ASS GM.

Therrien made me eat my words, but of course he is where he belongs as an ASS Coach
 

Nazzlind

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I don't recall him saying that but even if he did, are those types of stats even available anywhere?
sorry, I meant link to the interview and not the stats lol

I think it was mentioned in a year end interview where a reporter asked him some tough questions. my bad for being vague lol
 

Vachon23

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This loser (based on losing seasons, not a personal dig, although) is longest tenured Habs GM to never win a god damn thing. Why he gets the benefit of the doubt makes no sense. He will never be a GM of another franchise once hes done here.

I would't bet on that ! If Bergevin is fired next year, I'm sure that he gonna get a call from his friend in Pittsburgh
 

Habs Halifax

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Draft power is better when you suck. Wow. What a surprise.

He added 0 (zero) 1st round picks in 8 years. A late 2nd or 3rd here and there is cool but not really difference making. Rangers and Senators got it right. That's how you re-tool.

You look at the Rangers and Sens and ignore the Sabres and Coyotes.

We added more picks on top our our own. If we didn't, we might not have Romanov today. We were not going to rip it all apart and trade Price, Weber, Gallagher, Petry, Tatar. Give me a past example of teams that have done that? Leafs did that with Kessel and Phaneuf and that's not even close to what we would of had to move.
 

Grate n Colorful Oz

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You look at the Rangers and Sens and ignore the Sabres and Coyotes.

We added more picks on top our our own. If we didn't, we might not have Romanov today. We were not going to rip it all apart and trade Price, Weber, Gallagher, Petry, Tatar. Give me a past example of teams that have done that? Leafs did that with Kessel and Phaneuf and that's not even close to what we would of had to move.

You're creating a false dilema. Removing only two of all the players you named would've been quite sufficient.
 
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Habs Halifax

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You're creating a false dilema. Removing only two of all the players you named would've been quite sufficient.

Sorry, teams that fall to the bottom 5 trip and fall down to that level. No team rips apart a core like the Habs have. They work at addressing the flaws. I understand the Sens approach but I don't understand the Sabres and Coyotes ignorance. Rangers have what? Two draft lottery wins? Would that be your plan? Good luck with that. Even the Sabres hit will with Eichel (should have been McDavid) and Dahlin. Where are the Sabres now? They might not leap frog the Habs with our core and they have two stars!

* Gallagher, Petry, Tatar on expiring contracts does not get you a top 10 pick in a trade. Patch didn't even get that. We got Suzuki who was a fringe grade A (pre-trade). That's luck bud.
* Price has a NMC. Good luck with that. Even if he waives it, you will have to retain a shit load and also sell for $0.5 on the dollar
* Weber might possibly get a decent haul but retention would be required.

Imagine if we retained on Price and Weber for that many years? You are creating a false dilemma. That narrative works two ways. In 4 years ish, you start to regret those trades cause you would have cap space issues while those unprobable lottery wins have to get paid! I bet you would be blaming Bergevin then for trading them with Retention where there is a flat cap! What a nightmare that would be

I see another potential reset/retool after Weber retires. At that point, the cap is hopefully higher and Price has less term left. That's when you move Price.... if we have more struggle years cause the kids can't fill holes.
 
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Grate n Colorful Oz

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Sorry, teams that fall to the bottom 5 trip and fall down to that level. No team rips apart a core like the Habs have. They work at addressing the flaws. I understand the Sens approach but I don't understand the Sabres and Coyotes ignorance. Rangers have what? Two draft lottery wins? Would that be your plan? Good luck with that. Even the Sabres hit will with Eichel (should have been McDavid) and Dahlin. Where are the Sabres now? They might not leap frog the Habs with our core and they have two stars!

* Gallagher, Petry, Tatar on expiring contracts does not get you a top 10 pick in a trade. Patch didn't even get that. We got Suzuki who was a fringe grade A (pre-trade). That's luck bud.
* Price has a NMC. Good luck with that. Even if he waives it, you will have to retain a shit load and also sell for $0.5 on the dollar
* Weber might possibly get a decent haul but retention would be required.

Imagine if we retained on Price and Weber for that many years? You are creating a false dilemma. That narrative works two ways. In 4 years ish, you start to regret those trades cause you would have cap space issues while those unprobable lottery wins have to get paid! I bet you would be blaming Bergevin then for trading them with Retention where there is a flat cap! What a nightmare that would be

I see another potential reset/retool after Weber retires. At that point, the cap is hopefully higher and Price has less term left. That's when you move Price.... if we have more struggle years cause the kids can't fill holes.

The guy pretending to know for sure that we'll have to retain on those trades, says I'm the one creating a false dilema. Back to where you belong. Adios

Btw, tell us what age is Dahlin? You make completely ridiculous arguments. Oh noes, paying young stars, such a doom... so much worst than paying prime bucks for players heading in theur twilight!

Don't quit your day job
 

Habs Halifax

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The guy pretending to know for sure that we'll have to retain on those trades, says I'm the one creating a false dilema. Back to where you belong. Adios

Btw, tell us what age is Dahlin? You make completely ridiculous arguments. Oh noes, paying young stars, such a doom... so much worst than paying prime bucks for players heading in theur twilight!

Don't quit your day job

Remember, you moved towards an insult type of narrative first with the "don't quit your day job" so think about how this worked for us in the past? Not so sure that's an effective way to prove your points eh? :sarcasm:

Coyotes and Sabres have been rebuilding for decades. Dahlin is young yes. Didn't say he wasn't and I already counted him as a star in the previous posts. The point here is tanking and playing the lottery is a game for fools. Rangers won two draft lotteries. Sens are a good drafting team. Habs have done well by increasing draft power. You are just upset that Bergevin is still our GM and yeah... "9 years on the job eh". Sure.

You seem to go on hate mode when there is a disagreement? What's up with that bud? It's a disagreement and no need to go to that level. Learn how to agree to disagree and move on.
 
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Toene

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You look at the Rangers and Sens and ignore the Sabres and Coyotes.

We added more picks on top our our own. If we didn't, we might not have Romanov today. We were not going to rip it all apart and trade Price, Weber, Gallagher, Petry, Tatar. Give me a past example of teams that have done that? Leafs did that with Kessel and Phaneuf and that's not even close to what we would of had to move.
Ironic, since Bergevin is the one who entangled himself to huge contracts to aging players with the Weber trade and the ridiculous Price signing. Speaks of his lack of vision. Never got assets for his good veterans like Markov and Plekanec (yay, a 2nd!), tried to make the playoffs every year with no 1C which is a crucial component to a contender.
The Coyotes and Sabres have made bad decisions too, what does it have to do with the Habs? Looking at the Sens and Rangers, we can see it's possible to really build through the draft. Some GMs do it right, some try a half-assed approach to save their job. Bergevin improvises every year, with no logic whatsoever. Looking forward to waste another half-decade hoping Weber and Price take us to a cup with a Frankenstein monster of a roster : young centers, old back-end, some ok depth on the wing but no game-breaker. No real puck-mover on defense except Petry. This team has no identity.
 

Habs Halifax

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Ironic, since Bergevin is the one who entangled himself to huge contracts to aging players with the Weber trade and the ridiculous Price signing. Speaks of his lack of vision. Never got assets for his good veterans like Markov and Plekanec (yay, a 2nd!), tried to make the playoffs every year with no 1C which is a crucial component to a contender.
The Coyotes and Sabres have made bad decisions too, what does it have to do with the Habs? Looking at the Sens and Rangers, we can see it's possible to really build through the draft. Some GMs do it right, some try a half-assed approach to save their job. Bergevin improvises every year, with no logic whatsoever. Looking forward to waste another half-decade hoping Weber and Price take us to a cup with a Frankenstein monster of a roster : young centers, old back-end, some ok depth on the wing but no game-breaker. No real puck-mover on defense except Petry. This team has no identity.

Bergevin missed the real tank period of time. That was in 12/13 when he got the job. Easier to sell on Markov, Pleky, and Gionta than it is with Price, Weber, Gallagher, Petry, Tatar. Next one will be in about 3 years time when Weber retires and Price is 35 with less term left and hopefully a higher cap. That's if we continue to struggle.

Bergevin to me started off well but it was flawed cause he rode the prime years of Price, Subban, Patch while Pleky and Markov were still around playing well (I don't think our division was that strong then either). However, the prospect pool was not so good. Beaulieu, Tinordi, Leblanc, etc were not good enough. I think he expected more from the 12 and 13 drafts cause we had very good draft power. However, in hindsight, those were bad draft years. Regardless, even before we drafted Galchenyuk, our prospect pool was thin

Bergevin learned on the job which was the real issue. He trended at his low point in 16 and 17. Since then, we are on a better direction and it will come down to how good and how quick Suzuki, KK, Romanov, Caufield can be top top players for us while guys like Weber, Price, Petry, Gallagher, Anderson, and Toffoli are also performing well.

Do you think the Sharks are going to be able to trade Burns, Karlsson, Couture, and Kane in the next season or two if they continue to be a bottom half team? Good luck with moving those contracts! Same issues we had with Price and Weber
 

EXPOS123

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Ironic, since Bergevin is the one who entangled himself to huge contracts to aging players with the Weber trade and the ridiculous Price signing. Speaks of his lack of vision. Never got assets for his good veterans like Markov and Plekanec (yay, a 2nd!), tried to make the playoffs every year with no 1C which is a crucial component to a contender.
The Coyotes and Sabres have made bad decisions too, what does it have to do with the Habs? Looking at the Sens and Rangers, we can see it's possible to really build through the draft. Some GMs do it right, some try a half-assed approach to save their job. Bergevin improvises every year, with no logic whatsoever. Looking forward to waste another half-decade hoping Weber and Price take us to a cup with a Frankenstein monster of a roster : young centers, old back-end, some ok depth on the wing but no game-breaker. No real puck-mover on defense except Petry. This team has no identity.

I still don't understand this moron's strategy of core building. You build and lock in long term a core comprised of young, talented players who will only get better as the years pass on their contract. Instead this buffoon goes the other way - locking in guys on the wrong side of 30 who's play, by sheer effects of father time, will ultimately decline. Do people realize 30% of our payroll for the next 5 years will be tied up by 3 players in their mid thirties? ( Price, Weber and Petry) Sure you can mention Gallagher and Anderson as younger players, but the way they play and their already serious injury history, you gotta question the sinking of another 13% of your cap space into guys like this as well. I won't even start with the long term signing of plugs like Byron, Edmundson and Allen who take up another 10% of the cap space as well, albeit for 3 years.


Living and dying by this "core" will be Bozovin's biggest and dumbest gamble....with dire consequences if it doesn't pan out by next year.
 
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Grate n Colorful Oz

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I still don't understand this moron's strategy of core building. You build and lock in long term a core comprised of young, talented players who will only get better as the years pass on their contract. Instead this buffoon goes the other way - locking in guys on the wrong side of 30 who's play, by sheer effects of father time, will ultimately decline. Do people realize 30% of our payroll for the next 5 years will be tied up by 3 players in their mid thirties? ( Price, Weber and Petry) Sure you can mention Gallagher and Anderson as younger players, but the way they play and their already serious injury history, you gotta question the sinking of another 13% of your cap space into guys like this as well. I won't even start with the long term signing of plugs like Byron, Edmundson and Allen who take up another 10% of the cap space as well, albeit for 3 years.


Living and dying by this "core" will be Bozovin's biggest and dumbest gamble....with dire consequences if it doesn't pan out by next year.

I've been told that it's much better to sign vets heading toward their twilight than signing young franchise players.

The mental gymnastics necessary to defend the idiocy of his reigh is truly stupendous.
 
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MC94

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I no longer feel the same about the this team. He has eroded my affection for MTL and I look forward to the day when he's gone

he wins a cup, i'll eat some crow.
If habs win a cup with MB still here people would say it was all Price and still hate him and then Marc would get another 8 year extension
 

Kriss E

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Bergevin missed the real tank period of time. That was in 12/13 when he got the job. Easier to sell on Markov, Pleky, and Gionta than it is with Price, Weber, Gallagher, Petry, Tatar. Next one will be in about 3 years time when Weber retires and Price is 35 with less term left and hopefully a higher cap. That's if we continue to struggle.

Bergevin to me started off well but it was flawed cause he rode the prime years of Price, Subban, Patch while Pleky and Markov were still around playing well (I don't think our division was that strong then either). However, the prospect pool was not so good. Beaulieu, Tinordi, Leblanc, etc were not good enough. I think he expected more from the 12 and 13 drafts cause we had very good draft power. However, in hindsight, those were bad draft years. Regardless, even before we drafted Galchenyuk, our prospect pool was thin

Bergevin learned on the job which was the real issue. He trended at his low point in 16 and 17. Since then, we are on a better direction and it will come down to how good and how quick Suzuki, KK, Romanov, Caufield can be top top players for us while guys like Weber, Price, Petry, Gallagher, Anderson, and Toffoli are also performing well.

Do you think the Sharks are going to be able to trade Burns, Karlsson, Couture, and Kane in the next season or two if they continue to be a bottom half team? Good luck with moving those contracts! Same issues we had with Price and Weber

Who cares if they're a bottom team, their performances will dictate if they're movable or not. If Burns goes back to being a ppg player, even at 36, he'd easily be tradeable. The only reason why not is if there still is covid damage to mitigate, and that's pure unluck, no way to have predicted that.
A big reason why Bergevin was able to snatch up all these players this summer, if it weren't for COVID, he doesn't have this off season.
 
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