Marc Bergevin: Draft 2020 (XVI)

[shamrun]

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he is literally a poser......literally.

 

[Habs Halifax]

Ya, you would expect that from a team who was meant to miss the POs 4/5 years though. That's why a team like Buffalo is such a disappointment. You expect them to be so much better given they've missed the POs 9 years in a row, even their Captain spoke about it. We thankfully never sucked that badly, but the point remains, when a team does as poorly as we did over the last 5 year stretch, you expect their youth to improve as we draft more and earlier.

Fair but I don't think we are on the same page with our direction. Missing the playoffs in 4/5 years is deeper than just a one line statement. We had lack of good prospects, horrible center depth, and also very bad overall depth. Because of that, we rushed kids to fill holes. We are finally at a point where we don't have to rush guys like Poehling, Evans, Brook, Primeau, etc.

We are not built to be top heavy but we have made moves to address flaws and I do believe we are on the right track. Key areas are our young centers and better size/goal scoring on wing. I think our PP will still have issues but we will see if that improves from how horrible it was last year.

 

[Kriss E]

Disagree about the direction. Same song to you but not me. I just wonder what you would say if we didn't make moves to address flaws this off season.

1- Name me time when we had that many WJC type talent over a span of 4 drafts? Good luck!
2- Name me 3 better centers at the ages of 20, 21, and 27 with Kotkaniemi, Suzuki and Danault?
3- Name me a roster from the past that can roll three 2nd lines? And a pretty good 4th line too!
4- Add the picks to come in the next few drafts. We are loaded with futures.

We have a great mix of vets still performing at a high level, a decent mid core, very good youth, and tons of prospects/picks to come.

I remember saying in 2017 that we are going to turn the corner with our drafting and developing and I got jumped. Well, I think the results are tracking to be a turnaround from the 08-15 years but you can fight that all you want. I strongly disagree.

If you're being fair...

1- when's the last time we missed the POs 4/5 years?
2- Why 20-21-27 specifically? Plekanec-Koivu-Lang were a better trio of centers. Even, Plekanec-DD-Eller/Galch were very interesting to have back in 2012. You can even argue Plek-Gomez-Metropolit was a pretty strong line up with them putting up 70-59-29 pts. They don't have the age factor but this idea of us not having a better center line up in a very long time is pure fiction.
3- We had Lang centering the Kost bros in 08, with guys like Koivu, Tanguay and Kovalev ahead. We didn't have three 2nd lines, we actually had a legit top line. Plek-Kovy were coming off 153pts combined year, that was legit top line with whoever completed them. We had Koivu-Tanguay-Higgins as a 2nd line, which would probably be our first line today. So ya,
4- We do have loads of picks.

 

[Habs Halifax]

it's not either/or, it's how.

Briere, Murray and Parros were supposed to "address needs".
Drouin and Alzner were supposed to "address needs".

- 2010-13: Beaulieu, Tinordi, Collberg, Galch (who was injured, but would've been WJC star), Fucale, DLR, McCarron, Lehkonen, Reway, Andrighetto....

WJC participation is fun holiday excitement, not future NHL guarantee.

- C question is just silly... though very aligned with the cherry-picking approach to thinking that MB falls victim to

- name me a cup winner that couldn't roll a legit 1st line?

- Picks are of no use if we waste them on back-up goalies (in a goalie heavy ufa market) and bottom-pairing dmen rights (in a market with a plethora of depth dmen available at team-friendly deals)


We certainly disagree. Time will tell which assessments are/were more accurately grounded.

A disagreement is OK. I fully acknowledge the up/downs with Bergevin over 9 years now. I just don't think he is the same guy he was 4 years ago. The biggest issue is we hired a GM that learned on the job. He started out well but that had lot to do with Price, Subban, Patch, Gallagher, starting prime years while Markov was healthy and we still had Pleky. I think Bergevin really did struggle in the mid span years. But since the reset/retool and more focus at stock piling picks, we have done much better. That takes time to develop those kids... a process that should have happened in 2012, not 2017+.

Bergevin 1st mistake was not selling on Markov and Pleky in 2012. We made the playoffs and started to win divisions and that fooled him. We didn't have the prospect pool to back it up and were forced to try to improve with trades and free agent signings. Flawed strategy and yeah... I know he learned from that

 

[Kriss E]

Fair but I don't think we are on the same page with our direction. Missing the playoffs in 4/5 years is deeper than just a one line statement. We had lack of good prospects, horrible center depth, and also very bad overall depth. Because of that, we rushed kids to fill holes. We are finally at a point where we don't have to rush guys like Poehling, Evans, Brook, Primeau, etc.

We are not built to be top heavy but we have made moves to address flaws and I do believe we are on the right track. Key areas are our young centers and better size/goal scoring on wing. I think our PP will still have issues but we will see if that improves from how horrible it was last year.

We rushed guys because of dumb managerial decisions. It's not hard to fill up a roster with veterans to keep the kids in the minors and not rush them.
I think we could be headed back on the more competitive path but a lot of it still depends on potential.
If Anderson becomes our good Lucic, Suzuki-KK keep improving, Romanov lives up to his potential, well then that should definitely help us. Just how much still remains to be seen, I guess it'll depend on how good they become. Also assuming Price and Weber aren't going to start sucking.

 

[Habs Halifax]

If you're being fair...

1- when's the last time we missed the POs 4/5 years?
2- Why 20-21-27 specifically? Plekanec-Koivu-Lang were a better trio of centers. Even, Plekanec-DD-Eller/Galch were very interesting to have back in 2012. You can even argue Plek-Gomez-Metropolit was a pretty strong line up with them putting up 70-59-29 pts. They don't have the age factor but this idea of us not having a better center line up in a very long time is pure fiction.
3- We had Lang centering the Kost bros in 08, with guys like Koivu, Tanguay and Kovalev ahead. We didn't have three 2nd lines, we actually had a legit top line. Plek-Kovy were coming off 153pts combined year, that was legit top line with whoever completed them. We had Koivu-Tanguay-Higgins as a 2nd line, which would probably be our first line today. So ya,
4- We do have loads of picks.

1) Already said... missing the playoffs in 4/5 years is deeper than just a one liner. Already explained that. You don't have to agree but I gave the reasons. Not worth going in circles with that.

2) What ages were Pleky, Koivu, Lang? How much prime years do you get from that? Pleky, DD, Galchenyuk? Sorry, I rather have Danault, Suzuki, KK. Pleky, Gomez, Metropoit? Come on man! You are reaching bud.

3) I rather have three 2nd lines, better ages in terms of prime years, than older players and a top heavy team.

We have done this before. You think a roster from the past is better? List the year and the entire roster with lines. Then we can look at the ages of each of them and overall look. I think we are both stupid to try to change each other's mind on this cause we are both fans with knowledge. You want to change my mind? I'm open to it but you got to spend more time and present a better case. List your year, all the lines, and the prospect pool at that time. Then we can look at ages, performance and direction.

 

[Habs Halifax]

We rushed guys because of dumb managerial decisions. It's not hard to fill up a roster with veterans to keep the kids in the minors and not rush them.
I think we could be headed back on the more competitive path but a lot of it still depends on potential.
If Anderson becomes our good Lucic, Suzuki-KK keep improving, Romanov lives up to his potential, well then that should definitely help us. Just how much still remains to be seen, I guess it'll depend on how good they become. Also assuming Price and Weber aren't going to start sucking.

If we miss the playoffs and are relatively healthy next year, I'll join your fire Bergevin bandwagon party. Deal?

I think a lot of people overlook that Bergevin was extended 1.75 years before his contract ended. And in that same season after he got his extension (15/16), we fell flat on our face. He was extended for the 17/18 season on Nov 25th, 2015. Molson was premature on that contract extension and we went on a rough ride since Nov 25th, 2015. Writing off that contract and firing him after the 15/16 season was easier said than done... the new contract didn't even start yet and he had one more season left on the previous deal. . That was the starting point to many fans not liking Bergevin.

2016 and 2017 off seasons were disasters (Years 4/5 of his 9 year tenure). Then we started to stock pile picks and draft better in 2017+ years. Takes time but that should have happened in 2012. The 12/13 drafts gave us false hope cause we can look back today and say... yeah, horrible draft years in terms of depth at a time we had lots of picks. Story would be different today if those draft years had better talent.

2 more years left on his contract. Lets hope there is no extension as early as the last one eh . That would be Nov 25th of 2020!

 

[Habs Halifax]

Interesting stats... Draft power was clearly higher in recent years.

- 16 of 34 picks from the first three rounds is from the 2012-2016 draft years (5 draft years)
- 18 of 34 picks from the first three rounds is from the 2017-2020 draft years (4 draft years)
- Bergevin made 91 trades in 9 years (9th year just about to start). That's 10 trades/year. Well above the average by a lot!
- Bergevin signed 200 contracts totaling almost $1B!

Cap friendly list them in order of all our picks Bergevin made since 2012. Marc Bergevin - CapFriendly - NHL Salary Caps. It's interesting to look at the picks made and where they rank in terms of where they were picked.

To compare with others hired around the same time...

- Cheveldayoff was hired in 2011. Kevin Cheveldayoff - CapFriendly - NHL Salary Caps

- Nill was hired in 2013. Jim Nill - CapFriendly - NHL Salary Caps

- Kekalainen was hired in 2013. Jarmo Kekalainen - CapFriendly - NHL Salary Caps

 

[Habs Halifax]

More stats.

- Bergevin's 9 years ranks 7th in longest current tenure as a GM.
- 7 others directly behind him are at 7/8 years.
- 10 NHL GM's never played in the NHL.

 

[Kriss E]

1) Already said... missing the playoffs in 4/5 years is deeper than just a one liner. Already explained that. You don't have to agree but I gave the reasons. Not worth going in circles with that.

2) What ages were Pleky, Koivu, Lang? How much prime years do you get from that? Pleky, DD, Galchenyuk? Sorry, I rather have Danault, Suzuki, KK. Pleky, Gomez, Metropoit? Come on man! You are reaching bud.

3) I rather have three 2nd lines, better ages in terms of prime years, than older players and a top heavy team.

1- Has nothing to do with being a one liner, the point is we don't have the guys you like today if we didn't suck ass over the past 5 years. There is a correlation that needs to be observed.
Context matters.

2- How many prime years is a different question. You said we haven't had a better center line up than Danault-Suzuki-KK in a very long time. That's simply not true. If you're talking longevity well that's another matter. But just looking at the talent, over one year, then it's not true.
Yes, Plek-Gomez, they had 70 and 59pts that season. There's no reaching, as I said in the previous post..''if you want to be objective''. You're not. Just like you say you prefer having Dan-KK-Suzuki but that's just using revisionist history. Plekanec was better than Danault, KK is a 3rd OV skilled guy, so was Galch and with more potential flash up front, Eller was a 13th OV center with potential and so is Suzuki. It's actually pretty remarkable how the line up is so similar. People were ecstatic about the potential of those guys back in 2012. To that, you add Desharnais coming off a 60pt year.
Alas we know how it turned out, which probably makes you biased towards the current group, but at the very least you should be able to admit they're extremely similar.

3- Well fine but that's not what you asked. You asked to name when's the last time we were good enough to roll three 2nd lines. I listed you a year. I could have also named you 12-13 season or 13-14 when we had the EGG line as a 3rd one, or Bourque-Eller-Gionta as well.
Again, if you want to speak longevity, then it's a different matter.

We have done this before. You think a roster from the past is better? List the year and the entire roster with lines. Then we can look at the ages of each of them and overall look. I think we are both stupid to try to change each other's mind on this cause we are both fans with knowledge. You want to change my mind? I'm open to it but you got to spend more time and present a better case. List your year, all the lines, and the prospect pool at that time. Then we can look at ages, performance and direction.

I already listed you names above but you end up switching the questions around. It's no longer about naming the last time we had 3 centers or 3 lines as good as today, it also needs to be for multiple seasons or prime years now.

It's not about changing your mind like do you prefer Weber prime years or Subban prime years, we can argue for both but at the end of the day we agree, both were part of the cream of the crop.
Over here it doesn't feel like you're being objective at all. You scoff at Plek-Gomez-Metro but if I have to pick them or what we have for a single season, I'm picking the former AINEC. But you can't even admit. I mean, if you prorate and combine Danault-Suzuki-KK's production this past year over a full 82 games, they don't even outproduce Gomez+Plek that season, let alone adding Metro to the mix.
Then there's Plek-Koivu-Lang, which is the best line up we've had since the cup days. That is a strong line up down the middle, but again you can't admit that and instead shift the focus on their age and how many prime years.

This isn't me crapping on our current group. I like what we have and am excited to see if it'll work together.

 

[Roadhouse]

This isn't me crapping on our current group. I like what we have and am excited to see if it'll work together.

Reading all this, you got me nostalgic about having Plek-Koivu-Lang rolling on and off and on and off, those are happy memories.

This current group has excitement written all over it. Claude mentioning that "we couldn't get inside" against Philly probably reflects season-end conversations in the front office. The precursor conversations to Bergevin making the moves he's made...

Bergevin woke up one morning and decided it was time to get himself a gun. Or two. Or three. We'll see how those guns fit in when the puck drops. But for now, on paper at least, this team has a new identity. I still don't like Bergevin as our GM because of the colossal failures of the past, it's all about the players. The family just added a few solid Capos out of nowhere.

They might even need a new song. It was the 20th anniversary of the Sopranos recently, 2020 and all. We in the waste management business now, with a blue moon in our eyes.

 

[Miller Time]

A disagreement is OK. I fully acknowledge the up/downs with Bergevin over 9 years now. I just don't think he is the same guy he was 4 years ago. The biggest issue is we hired a GM that learned on the job. He started out well but that had lot to do with Price, Subban, Patch, Gallagher, starting prime years while Markov was healthy and we still had Pleky. I think Bergevin really did struggle in the mid span years. But since the reset/retool and more focus at stock piling picks, we have done much better. That takes time to develop those kids... a process that should have happened in 2012, not 2017+.

Bergevin 1st mistake was not selling on Markov and Pleky in 2012. We made the playoffs and started to win divisions and that fooled him. We didn't have the prospect pool to back it up and were forced to try to improve with trades and free agent signings. Flawed strategy and yeah... I know he learned from that

We had a top 5 prospect pool by 2014...

No evidence of his "learning"...

Still hasn't added a 1st round pick, despite *4 of 5 years as a non-playoff team... (*COVID saving his ass & costing us a top 10 pick).

"Much better"? I don't consider a lottery picking finish an "improvement".

 

[Habs Halifax]

We had a top 5 prospect pool by 2014...

No evidence of his "learning"...

Still hasn't added a 1st round pick, despite *4 of 5 years as a non-playoff team... (*COVID saving his ass & costing us a top 10 pick).

"Much better"? I don't consider a lottery picking finish an "improvement".

The 2014 pool is not as good as the 2020 pool... both in quality and quantity and trends of development.

No evidence of his learning? I disagree with that. He's been much better in recent years with the moves he has made and the stock piling of picks. Heck, even other fans are saying less garbage towards Bergevin these days.

 

[Miller Time]

The 2014 pool is not as good as the 2020 pool... both in quality and quantity and trends of development.

No evidence of his learning? I disagree with that. He's been much better in recent years with the moves he has made and the stock piling of picks. Heck, even other fans are saying less garbage towards Bergevin these days.

Prospect group in 2014 was more than strong enough to build with.

Selling low, paying a premium for his targets, leaving key areas of need unaddressed... Same mistakes in asset judgment & decision making we've seen before. Zero learning reflected in the pattern of roster management.

 

[Grate n Colorful Oz]

Prospect group in 2014 was more than strong enough to build with.

Selling low, paying a premium for his targets, leaving key areas of need unaddressed... Same mistakes in asset judgment & decision making we've seen before. Zero learning reflected in the pattern of roster management.

Price and Weber had to complain about their winning window dwindling for Bergevin to finally learn that winning windows actually exist, 8 years in, and that's also while ignoring their similar comments from the year before, even worst, he dismissed them last year, swipping the comment away with the back of the hand "Price and I have a different vision of his longetivity (sic)". Smug douche who doesn't deserve their loyatly.

 

[CrAzYNiNe]

Price and Weber had to complain about their winning window dwindling for Bergevin to finally learn that winning windows actually exist, 8 years in, and that's also while ignoring their similar comments from the year before, even worst, he dismissed them last year, swipping the comment away with the back of the hand "Price and I have a different vision of his longetivity (sic)". Smug douche who doesn't deserve their loyatly.

This loser (based on losing seasons, not a personal dig, although) is longest tenured Habs GM to never win a god damn thing. Why he gets the benefit of the doubt makes no sense. He will never be a GM of another franchise once hes done here.

 

[OldCraig71]

This loser (based on losing seasons, not a personal dig, although) is longest tenured Habs GM to never win a god damn thing. Why he gets the benefit of the doubt makes no sense. He will never be a GM of another franchise once hes done here.

Mark Smith would have been gone a long long time ago.

 

[Runner77]

This loser (based on losing seasons, not a personal dig, although) is longest tenured Habs GM to never win a god damn thing. Why he gets the benefit of the doubt makes no sense. He will never be a GM of another franchise once hes done here.

I disagree with the last sentence. Even Chiarelli found a job. The old boys club looks after its own and is quite forgiving. Bergevin is a lifer.

 

[Supersonic]

COVID is the only reason he was given such a leash after once again missing the playoffs. How we got to this point 8 years later, is beyond me.

However at this point I did like this offseason and I think the Habs are a playoff team with some solid prospects coming in at all positions in the next few years with no cost to draft position yet.

It’s not ideal by any means but it’s what we’ve got lol, and I think this team will be really fun to watch in 2-3 years

 

[HabbyGuy]

However at this point I did like this offseason and I think the Habs are a playoff team with some solid prospects coming in at all positions in the next few years with no cost to draft position yet.

It’s not ideal by any means but it’s what we’ve got lol, and I think this team will be really fun to watch in 2-3 years

2-3 years? I'm stoked for this season to start! I think this team we have now will be very entertaining to watch, I can't wait!!

 

[dackelljuneaubulis02]

Tuch and Guhle might not be the most exciting picks but they're not bums. Tuch at least fills a need possibly and Guhle is the 3rd ranked D in the draft with not a huge amount of space between Sanderson it seems.

Mysak and Farell are very intriguing. Biondi possibly but I need to see more. Smith and Gordin at least have skill.

I think people are down on it because of the first two picks but Mysak and Farell have real potential. Bla bla bla yadda yadda wait and see.

 

[Habs Halifax]

Prospect group in 2014 was more than strong enough to build with.

Selling low, paying a premium for his targets, leaving key areas of need unaddressed... Same mistakes in asset judgment & decision making we've seen before. Zero learning reflected in the pattern of roster management.

I disagree the prospect group in 2014 was more to build with. So we are far apart on this

 

[angusyoung]

Mark Smith would have been gone a long long time ago.

Gotta wonder how long this guy would have lasted

 

[Miller Time]

I disagree the prospect group in 2014 was more to build with. So we are far apart on this

might want to re-read the post, you're disagreeing with something i did not state.

 

[dcyhabs]

NBC ranked NHL GMs. NHL Power Rankings: Ranking the NHL general managers. Bergevin was 18th with a few GMs unranked due to short tenure. Seems fair, his trades have been good, other than Drouin, his signings/non-signings have been iffy at best, and the team has not really improved significantly. If a few of the many prospects work out as top players his legacy may start to look better, but he's wasted time and initial goodwill.