News Article: Marc-Andre Fleury: Why the Penguins Should Bench Him

[Captain Hook]

Smart move by Bylsma to keep Fleury and his ever fragile confidence out of some of these Flyers/Pens clusterfcks.

 

[Shockmaster]

Weren't you the one that dragged this thread back up? Yep, typical Fleury bashers.

Why shouldn't I? Fleury was playing great and Vokoun just crapped the bed. It's the rest of you who have to post YT videos of Fleury as if it'll somehow make us all forget what just happened here tonight.

Smart move by Bylsma to keep Fleury and his ever fragile confidence out of some of these Flyers/Pens clusterfcks.

I know. Bylsma sure is a dummy for that opening game. I mean who cares if Fleury was a wall in that game, his confidence was crushed!

 

[TheSniper26]

Why shouldn't I? Fleury was playing great and Vokoun just crapped the bed. It's the rest of you who have to post YT videos of Fleury as if it'll somehow make us all forget what just happened here tonight.

Well maybe you shouldn't drag a thread back up to gloat like a child if you're going to whine about how people respond to your gloating. Besides, what is your point anyway? That Vokoun having one bad game somehow negates Fleury's status as an average goaltender? Ok, if you say so.

 

[mrzeigler]

I had a feeling I'd get home from the game and find this thread bumped.

Even with the usual small sample size caveats, after tonight's game, Vokoun has a .899 save percentage with this team and Fleury has a .914.

Again, small sample size, but remember when the Fleury naysayers pointed to him as the main problem in against the Flyers in the playoffs? Remember the choruses of "If only we had someone other than Fleury in that series ..." Remember when people said Vokoun's near-clockwork consistency when it comes to save percentage might give us a great opportunity to really evaluate the impact that playing for this team with DB's philosophy has on a goalie and finally give us some indisputable evidence that it's Fleury and not any of the other factors that often are cited ...

Well, it's too small of a sample size to draw conclusions, but it ain't too small of a sample size to say that turtles return to an upright position quicker than Vokoun does ... and have quicker lateral movement.

 

[domaug*]

Well maybe you shouldn't drag a thread back up to gloat like a child if you're going to whine about how people respond to your gloating. Besides, what is your point anyway? That Vokoun having one bad game somehow negates Fleury's status as an average goaltender? Ok, if you say so.

that average goaltender is still the clear-cut best goalie the Pens have had in the last several years, whether you think so or not.

 

[TheSniper26]

that average goaltender is still the clear-cut best goalie the Pens have had in the last several years, whether you think so or not.

Where have I said otherwise? I don't think Vokoun will ever be the starter. That doesn't change the reality of our goaltending situation. It's very average. Which is fine. It's enough to win. But only if an effort is made to shelter the goalies more.

 

[Malkinstheman]

Well maybe you shouldn't drag a thread back up to gloat like a child if you're going to whine about how people respond to your gloating. Besides, what is your point anyway? That Vokoun having one bad game somehow negates Fleury's status as an average goaltender? Ok, if you say so.

Thank you. Honestly where were you when vokoun got the shout out, r the last game he won. Tis is the one time he crapped the bed and you give him greif. Fleury does it so many times and then your gonna say FIRE BYLSMA or our defence didnt play good today, its not flurys fault.

 

[Crosbyfan]

Lets all admit that Fleury looked great sitting on the bench last night and then leave this thread to gather dust until Fleury actually plays.

 

[radapex]

fair enough, and perhaps i do underestimate the quantity of fleury haters.

however about the bolded and the paragraph that follows...

how do you reconcile his play in the flyers series with his regular season play? for me, anything he did in the regular season was erased by the playoffs.

and about fleury being jerked around/mismanaged. sure i agree. but eventually what happened in the past doesnt matter. ultimately fleury is coming close to the age where his development is largely over, and you have to look at him for what he currently brings to the table. its a shame how he was developed, but that becomes water under the bridge, at some point.

Pens' management seem to believe Fleury was simply warn out. A quick comparison of his season-by-season numbers in the regular season and playoffs show a very strong relationship - the most he plays in the regular season, the worse he's played in the playoffs.

We all know what Fleury can do, and I don't believe anyone anywhere doubts his abilities. I don't even doubt his mental toughness because after everything he's gone through in his hockey career he just keeps bouncing back. However, we can ask questions about his conditioning and durability. Is he a guy that can shoulder a 65 game workload and still be effective in the playoffs? Right now, that's looking doubtful - which means the Pens need to make sure they can get 20-25 quality starts out of their backups.

 

[radapex]

The goalies are an extension of how the game is played in front of them. Yes, they do have stinkers, but for the most part if you play poorly in front of any goaltender goals are gonna come of it.

I have no problem not labeling Fleury elite, however, he's no Bryzgalov either.

Bryzgalov is actually a good example of that... or, actually, extending that to the Phoenix Coyotes as a whole. They claimed Bryzgalov off waivers and make him look like an elite goalie; he cashes in big with the Flyers and has been average-at-best for them. Then they sign Mike Smith cheap, and he looks like an all-star for them. This is a guy who went through waivers AND re-entry waivers the previous season and wasn't claimed... he was that bad.

The Coyotes are a team committed to team defense, and the makes goalies like 100x better because of it.

 

[radapex]

i think this is a valid view. he was 10th for Games Started and 8th for Games Played last year. if Johnson wasn't awful he'd probably have been 10th for GP as well. i think it's a legitimate expectation that he should be able withstand that amount of workload without imploding (he's 28 and probably the most athletically gifted netminder in the league). Quick, Rinne and Niemi all played more games in the regular season and had adequate to excellent playoffs.

Funny little physique comparison...

Quick - 6'1" 214lbs
Niemi - 6'2" 210lbs
Rinne - 6'5" 204lbs

Fleury - 6'2" 180lbs


There's been a theory floating around over the past couple years that more undersized goalies like Fleury tend to falter more frequently late in the season or in the playoffs.

 

[PensFanSince1989]

Bryzgalov is actually a good example of that... or, actually, extending that to the Phoenix Coyotes as a whole. They claimed Bryzgalov off waivers and make him look like an elite goalie; he cashes in big with the Flyers and has been average-at-best for them. Then they sign Mike Smith cheap, and he looks like an all-star for them. This is a guy who went through waivers AND re-entry waivers the previous season and wasn't claimed... he was that bad.

The Coyotes are a team committed to team defense, and the makes goalies like 100x better because of it.

There are people here that seem to believe that coaching and team defence has nothing to do with a goalie's stats. Now that Vokoun isn't ripping it up in the Pens, its that he sucks now, not that our system is not goalie friendly. Vokoun has let in 3 or more goals in 5 of his 6 starts. If that was Fleury, even before last night he'd be getting bashed because of it.

Vokoun is a good goalie, who played in a Jaques Martin extremely goalie friendly system in Florida. I can think of another goaltender that's getting a ton of praise that's done most of his best work under a Jaque Martin system (allow shots from outside, but keep to perimiter, box out rebounds) (hint; that goalie is now playing for an ex-pens coach).

I doubt any goalie plays well consistently in games like last night. Not Vokoun, not Fleury, not Bryzgalov, not Dominic Hasek (though he may be the exception). Goalies have to have confidence in themselves, but more importantly, confidence in the team and defence playing in front of them to be able to take away the pass, to not screen shots, deflect shots on own goals. When they start doubting that, that's when they cheat off posts, get out of position trying to do too much and when soft goals happen.

 

[radapex]

It's funny to me. These die hard Fleury supporters can't make a legitimate case as to why Fleury is a top 10 goalie so they instead try to muddy up the discussion with hypotheticals and anecdotal evidence. What's ironic is that the same arguments can be made for weaker goalies to be put on the same level as MAF.

Here are where Fleury ranked in wins, GAA, and save % among starters (49+ games) since the last lockout:


2005-06: 13 wins (21st), 3.25 GAA (18th), .898 save % (16th)
2006-07: 40 wins (5th), 2.83 GAA (17th), .906 save % (15th)
2007-08: missed majority of season with injury
2008-09: 35 wins (7th), 2.67 GAA (12th), .912 save % (13th)
2009-10: 37 wins (8th), 2.65 GAA (15th), .905 save % (19th)
2010-11: 36 wins (7th), 2.32 GAA (7th), .918 save % (11th)
2011-12: 42 wins (2nd), 2.36 GAA (7th), .913 save % (16th)


Based on that, and our individual knowledge, I think we can agree that Fleury has been a top 10 goaltender in the NHL over the past 2+ seasons - at least, as far as regular season performances are concerned. It also shows that he has improved fairly significantly over the course of the past few seasons compared to his earlier ones.

 

[Til the End of Time]

radapex, good stats. it does make a convincing case fleury is a top 10 goalie for the past few seasons... but only in the regular season.

a top 10 regular season goalie isnt impressive.

 

[Shockmaster]

There are people here that seem to believe that coaching and team defence has nothing to do with a goalie's stats. Now that Vokoun isn't ripping it up in the Pens, its that he sucks now, not that our system is not goalie friendly. Vokoun has let in 3 or more goals in 5 of his 6 starts. If that was Fleury, even before last night he'd be getting bashed because of it.

Vokoun is a good goalie, who played in a Jaques Martin extremely goalie friendly system in Florida. I can think of another goaltender that's getting a ton of praise that's done most of his best work under a Jaque Martin system (allow shots from outside, but keep to perimiter, box out rebounds) (hint; that goalie is now playing for an ex-pens coach).

I doubt any goalie plays well consistently in games like last night. Not Vokoun, not Fleury, not Bryzgalov, not Dominic Hasek (though he may be the exception). Goalies have to have confidence in themselves, but more importantly, confidence in the team and defence playing in front of them to be able to take away the pass, to not screen shots, deflect shots on own goals. When they start doubting that, that's when they cheat off posts, get out of position trying to do too much and when soft goals happen.

That's because it doesn't show up on a stat sheet nor is it taken into account with their fantasy leagues.

 

[PensFan6687]

Funny little physique comparison...

Quick - 6'1" 214lbs
Niemi - 6'2" 210lbs
Rinne - 6'5" 204lbs

Fleury - 6'2" 180lbs


There's been a theory floating around over the past couple years that more undersized goalies like Fleury tend to falter more frequently late in the season or in the playoffs.

Again, two Cup Finals and 1 Cup is more than the other three have accomplished. My point is, the entire team has crapped the bed, not just Fleury in those following years.

 

[Malkin4Top6Wingerz]

Bryzgalov is actually a good example of that... or, actually, extending that to the Phoenix Coyotes as a whole. They claimed Bryzgalov off waivers and make him look like an elite goalie; he cashes in big with the Flyers and has been average-at-best for them. Then they sign Mike Smith cheap, and he looks like an all-star for them. This is a guy who went through waivers AND re-entry waivers the previous season and wasn't claimed... he was that bad.

The Coyotes are a team committed to team defense, and the makes goalies like 100x better because of it.

I wouldn't say there's much evidence that Philly is a hard place to put up decent goaltending numbers. Look at what Leighton, Boucher, Bobrovsky, and Biron did with the Flyers compared to what they've done everywhere else. Their reputation Philly has of being a goalie's nightmare to play for is mostly a result of their long time philosophy to never invest in the position, which means most of their starters are going to be pretty mediocre and that makes them easy scapegoats for the Philly media and hockey media in general. Combine that with the .. umm, "passionate" fans in Philadelphia and all of the expectations that come along with that and it's easy to see why it's not considered a goalie friendly environment.

I wouldn't go as far as to say that goaltending isn't influenced by the way a team plays. It's just not as prominent of an effect as people like to believe and they start to see things that just aren't there. If the systems implemented by guys like Tippett and Tortorella were so goalie friendly why have they only gotten that kind of goaltending on their current teams? Dallas had well below average goaltending under Tippett and Tampa Bay had consistently horrendous goaltending in Tortorella's last few seasons there. He only got average to above average goaltending when he had a quality starter in Khabibulin. And for all of this talk of Bryzgalov being a system goalie in Phoenix, his breakout year was playing behind Wayne Gretzky who was a failure as a coach and certainly didn't have any stifling defensive system in place.

I do think a few coaches have been able to positively influence save percentage in the past but it's mostly far and few inbetween. A handful of outliers does not support the notion that it is a heavily team influenced statistic. I'd equate it to goalscoring to some degree. It's a statistic that can be influenced by the team around you in certain circumstances but is largely individual overall and is obviously a very valued statistic by everybody within hockey. Nobody in their right mind would throw away goals when talking about the best players in the league simply because Jonathon Cheechoo won the Rocket Richard playing alongside Joe Thornton.

Even if you can show that teams influence save percentage for their goaltenders you have to then prove that the Penguins suppress their goalie's numbers. The fact that our NHL capable backups have put up better than average numbers and equal to that of Fleury over the years should be pretty damning evidence that the Penguins do not play a game that is detrimental to their goalie's save percentage. If you're a supposedly elite goalie who is underperforming compared to other starters in the league and aren't able to outplay your backups to any significant degree, chances are you're being propped up by reputation and wishful thinking rather than your actual performance.

 

[TheSniper26]

I wouldn't say there's much evidence that Philly is a hard place to put up decent goaltending numbers. Look at what Leighton, Boucher, Bobrovsky, and Biron did with the Flyers compared to what they've done everywhere else. Their reputation Philly has of being a goalie's nightmare to play for is mostly a result of their long time philosophy to never invest in the position, which means most of their starters are going to be pretty mediocre and that makes them easy scapegoats for the Philly media and hockey media in general. Combine that with the .. umm, "passionate" fans in Philadelphia and all of the expectations that come along with that and it's easy to see why it's not considered a goalie friendly environment.

I wouldn't go as far as to say that goaltending isn't influenced by the way a team plays. It's just not as prominent of an effect as people like to believe and they start to see things that just aren't there. If the systems implemented by guys like Tippett and Tortorella were so goalie friendly why have they only gotten that kind of goaltending on their current teams? Dallas had well below average goaltending under Tippett and Tampa Bay had consistently horrendous goaltending in Tortorella's last few seasons there. He only got average to above average goaltending when he had a quality starter in Khabibulin. And for all of this talk of Bryzgalov being a system goalie in Phoenix, his breakout year was playing behind Wayne Gretzky who was a failure as a coach and certainly didn't have any stifling defensive system in place.

I do think a few coaches have been able to positively influence save percentage in the past but it's mostly far and few inbetween. A handful of outliers does not support the notion that it is a heavily team influenced statistic. I'd equate it to goalscoring to some degree. It's a statistic that can be influenced by the team around you in certain circumstances but is largely individual overall and is obviously a very valued statistic by everybody within hockey. Nobody in their right mind would throw away goals when talking about the best players in the league simply because Jonathon Cheechoo won the Rocket Richard playing alongside Joe Thornton.

Even if you can show that teams influence save percentage for their goaltenders you have to then prove that the Penguins suppress their goalie's numbers. The fact that our NHL capable backups have put up better than average numbers and equal to that of Fleury over the years should be pretty damning evidence that the Penguins do not play a game that is detrimental to their goalie's save percentage. If you're a supposedly elite goalie who is underperforming compared to other starters in the league and aren't able to outplay your backups to any significant degree, chances are you're being propped up by reputation and wishful thinking rather than your actual performance.

Great post. I would also add that Fleury's average numbers have not only stretched on for years, but also two different coaching regimes. Earlier in the thread, someone mentioned that Bylsma's system is less "goalie friendly" and that, when we played under "Therrien's D-first system", Fleury's numbers were better. Well actually, as was already pointed out, they weren't. A .911 save % over that time. Not awful, but again, just average. So that's two different coaches, two fairly different defensive squads... and the same constant average goaltending numbers. Are we to believe that, for the last 8 years, regardless of coach and roster, the Pens have always been hanging the goalies out to dry? Sorry, but I just don't really buy that.

 

[Shockmaster]

Hmm...

 

[Ogrezilla]

Hmm...

Fleury with a big loss to the Panthers. what a joke

 

[SirBrad]

lol every season there is a thread like this about Flower that doesn't die all season long. Gotta laugh about that.

 

[JQR]

Fleury with a big loss to the Panthers. what a joke

Seriously. Good thing there is an elite backup to pick up the slack.