The Star: Maple Leafs: Shanahan's gut tells him to go slow: DiManno

[Northern Dancer]

Not matter what the scenario, Leaf fans, for the most part, have very little patience.

This thread proves that.

 

[hotpaws]

Not matter what the scenario, Leaf fans, for the most part, have very little patience.

This thread proves that.

Yet both of you were staunch supporters of Burke's accelerated retool .

Where was this patience in '08 ?

 

[Mess]

FWIW, the first line was a net positive in ES GA and ES GF last season. Maybe less time can help increase that.

Unfortunately the first line wasn't a net positive at ES because their +/- stats were negative meaning more ES Goals against than ES Goals For. Only Bozak was a +2 but that is more because he missed 24 games due to injury. However Bozak was on the ice for 62 ES GA in 58 games [= 87 GA in 82 games]

Kessel and JVR were on the ice for 82 ES goals against which was the #2 worst mark in the NHL behind Spezza @ 83. No NHL line gets scored against more than Leafs #1 unit and in a 82 game season that averages out to 1 ES GA/g.

Less ice time = less goals against hopefully, and perhaps the trio can remain as productive offensively, being fresher with 2 less minutes a night. Maybe JVR and Bozak will not kill penalties either this season as those are tough minutes and tiring as well.

 

[Commander Clueless]

To be honest, the quoted lines creeped me out a bit so I didn't read the article.


However, taking it slow with this team is a good idea that is likely to catch him a bit of flak. Fans will clamour for big changes but that's not always the best course of action, even if it is admittedly the most appealing after a disheartening season.

 

[Mess]

Not matter what the scenario, Leaf fans, for the most part, have very little patience.

Winning and success breeds patience in a fan base.

You were at the ACC when the Leafs were a perennial playoff team and even went to the 3rd round in 1999 and 2002. Fans were not screaming for a rebuild nor tanking when the team was winning.

However since the NHL has instituted the Salary Cap the Leafs have been among the NHL's least successful teams 1 playoff appearance in 10 years. Despite being neutered financially of their buying power the team continues to believe it can buy success via UFA spending and trades instead of building it through the entry draft.

Shanahan new position of going slow, cutting off the money flow for UFAs, suggesting they "play the kids and promote from within" and focusing on the entry draft is a 180 degree change in direction and philosophy. Spend smarter not harder seems to be the new motto and that takes patience.

 

[Northern Dancer]

Yet both of you were staunch supporters of Burke's accelerated retool .

Where was this patience in '08 ?

I am 100% OK with any type of rebuild is deemed necessary by management. I only want to win the Stanley Cup and am not as sharp as you or others who profess to know more than professional hockey people.

 

[Northern Dancer]

But they also have now made the playoffs in 23 consecutive years and counting by building a team structure that is playoff and cup competitive annually. The last time Red Wings fans didn't get to see their team play a playoff game was 1989-90.

If the Leafs made the playoffs for over 2 decades straight and took a run at the Cup each and every season than I think the patience level would be much higher as well for Leaf Nation.

Toronto fans have seen 1 playoff series (that ended badly) in the last decade and that was a result of a lockout shortened season.

Nobody quarrels with Detroit's success. But it really is a stretch to consider the drafting of Yzerman as the start of the so-called proper rebuild. Detroit actually wanted to draft Lafontaine that year but he was gone at the 4th pick. They also tried to trade Yzerman to Ottawa for Yashin straight-up in the late 90's.

They had a bucketful of luck going for them as well.

 

[Mess]

Yet both of you were staunch supporters of Burke's accelerated retool .

Where was this patience in '08 ?

The 2 biggest mistakes this organization made was not listening to JFJ when he said the team needed to draft rebuild coming out of the first lockout.

Then hiring that blowhard that told them they didn't need to as he could win sooner with his "it doesn't take 5 years" accelerated retooling to assemble a winner nonsense that has seen the Leafs mired near the bottom the entire time.

Thus proving JFJ was right and Burke was wrong.

It appears now finally a light bulb has gone off at MLSE (perhaps its Bell/Rogers instead of the Teacher's pension plan owners) and the hiring of Shanahan that seems to be instituting a new draft strategy and patience that should have happened 10 years ago.

Better late then never as they say !!!!

 

[Kubus]

Well Kessel #2 (17:30), Bozak #4 (17:03) and JVR #9 (16:27) in ES TOI/g in the NHL last year.

All 3 in the top 10.

So how many less goals or points will they score if 2 minutes is deducted and how many less goals against will they be on for also via less TOI/g.

Will the 3rd and 4th liners be able to compensate for the losses of offense?.

At the same time how much harder will they be able to skate with 2 minutes less of ice time.
Also we can't dismiss how the 3rd/4th line could affect the game, even without scoring. If our bottom 6 can finally get some offensive zone face-offs it means that our top 6 will start less in the defensive zone. And that to me means they will be in a better position to score.

I think starting in a better offensive position and being able to skate harder can make up for 2 minutes less of ice time.

 

[hotpaws]

I am 100% OK with any type of rebuild is deemed necessary by management. I only want to win the Stanley Cup and am not as sharp as you or others who profess to know more than professional hockey people.

so you're saying you just blindly support/defend everything mang does regardless of how poorly the results have been ?

What is it that makes you think every one in mang is competent at there jobs ?

Do you actually think kids of former GM's like Shero/JFJ/Bowman/Flectcher would be where they are without their fathers connections regardless of how they've performed since given their opportunities ?

Also why do you even bother posting in a hockey forum when you have no opinion on how the teams being run other than to regurgitate everything mang is saying ?

 

[gabeliscious]

im pretty convinced that shannahan and liewikie want to tank although neither will admit it publicly. the leafs did basically the bare minimum this off season imo to look like they did something but not enough to actually make a difference. im also not convinced that they wont look to unload pieces like lupul or phaneuf if they could get the right return.

the truth is shanny doesnt really have a choice regarding fixing the leafs. the only way to get the players we need is through the draft. many of our players are locked up long term, most of which are overpaid and underperforming, and the remaining spots are bandaids/stop gaps, question marks, or just plain awful. all of which are borderline untradeable.

 

[Mess]

Nobody quarrels with Detroit's success. But it really is a stretch to consider the drafting of Yzerman as the start of the so-called proper rebuild. Detroit actually wanted to draft Lafontaine that year but he was gone at the 4th pick. They also tried to trade Yzerman to Ottawa for Yashin straight-up in the late 90's.

They had a bucketful of luck going for them as well.

Red Wings drafted a generational franchise talent in Yzerman with an early draft selection and began building a core around him through the entry draft process and have been rewarded ever since for that strategy with 4 X Stanley Cups 1997, 1998, 2002 and 2008 and 23 consecutive playoff appearances since then.

Who wouldn't envy their success they obtained nor support following their team building strategy?.

Where is our franchise building block and that is where tanking to obtain our own Stevie Y and build around him stems from when mentioning the Red Wings path to success.

 

[hotpaws]

The 2 biggest mistakes this organization made was not listening to JFJ when he said the team needed to draft rebuild coming out of the first lockout.

Then hiring that blowhard that told them they didn't need to as he could win sooner with his "it doesn't take 5 years" accelerated retooling to assemble a winner nonsense that has seen the Leafs mired near the bottom the entire time.

Thus proving JFJ was right and Burke was wrong.

It appears now finally a light bulb has gone off at MLSE (perhaps its Bell/Rogers instead of the Teacher's pension plan owners) and the hiring of Shanahan that seems to be instituting a new draft strategy and patience that should have happened 10 years ago.

Better late then never as they say !!!!

I agree but i'd have more faith in this new "go slow approach" if there actions backed up there words .

Failing at singing there desired ufa's and then bringing in retreads to fill most of the available roster spots doesn't scream patient rebuild .

It seems like Shanny is just laying down preemptive excuses if this season turns to crap.

 

[Portse91]

The thing I don't understand is why people are so quick to trash management due to their lack of participation on July 1? If the Leafs were to resign all the players they lost the team would be crippled cap wise. I don't know exactly figures of the top of my head but: Bolland at 5+, Kuley at 4+, Raymond at 3+!? I think the leafs made out quite well. Sure they didn't replace the talent of these guys but really who was out there that was a realistic signing? We seem to forget what free agency is like because it has been so long since we had valuable guys to lose but it is the business of the game. They can't always keep guys because there are always teams looking to pay more. This team is far better off without having a 3rd line centre making 5+ a year. IMO Kuley was overrated and is worth somewhere in between 3 to 3.5. How good was McClement really? Sure he won a few faceoffs but the PK stunk and that is the role he is expected to excell in. The only move that stung with me is losing Raymond. I would have been happy seeing the leafs give him the money Calgary did. He plays a great 3rd line game and can effectively slide up to a top 6 role when needed. Every team needs those guys.

 

[ACC1224]

I am 100% OK with any type of rebuild is deemed necessary by management. I only want to win the Stanley Cup and am not as sharp as you or others who profess to know more than professional hockey people.

Sounds like a reasonable, patient approach.

 

[Mess]

im pretty convinced that shannahan and liewikie want to tank although neither will admit it publicly. the leafs did basically the bare minimum this off season imo to look like they did something but not enough to actually make a difference. im also not convinced that they wont look to unload pieces like lupul or phaneuf if they could get the right return.

the truth is shanny doesnt really have a choice regarding fixing the leafs. the only way to get the players we need is through the draft. many of our players are locked up long term, most of which are overpaid and underperforming, and the remaining spots are bandaids/stop gaps, question marks, or just plain awful. all of which are borderline untradeable.

Hey tanking in frowned upon in these here parts, so don't say this out loud its a secret.

Toronto seems to have masked their ultimate strategy successfully so that not everyone has caught on and some even believe Leafs are actually trying. Hey, if I wanted to tank the season without making it appear obvious of my intentions like trading Kessel or Phaneuf for futures I would do exactly what Nonis did this summer.

The unknown factor in this is the maturation of Leafs youth that can't be predicted on the success of the team.. By "playing the kids" and letting them develop with quality opportunities and ice time potential for more team success is possible if they start taking the next step. We might be pleasantly surprised.

However as part of a draft rebuild plan that is what all teams do. Colorado's rise is directly related to how far Duchene, ROR, Landeskog and MacKinnon will carry them for example after loading up for years. Now Leafs are counting on the Rielly, Kadri, Nylander etc to drive future success while they focus on giving them more support through future drafts.

Heck I have been preaching "Play the kids" when Quinn was still the GM/coach, so I'm on board if this is really the new strategy that Shanahan plans on deploying.

 

[egd27]

I agree but i'd have more faith in this new "go slow approach" if there actions backed up there words .

Failing at singing there desired ufa's and then bringing in retreads to fill most of the available roster spots doesn't scream patient rebuild .

It seems like Shanny is just laying down preemptive excuses if this season turns to crap.

Perhaps I've interpreted your meaning incorrectly but, signing some short term UFA's to fill out the roster because you didn't get the guys you desired this year seems very much like a patient approach.

 

[Northern Dancer]

so you're saying you just blindly support/defend everything mang does regardless of how poorly the results have been ?

No, mistakes are made i.e. jfj jr, I had no problem with Fletcher V-1 nor Burke.

What is it that makes you think every one in mang is competent at there jobs ? I don't, see above, also Imlach V-2 was a huge mistake.

Do you actually think kids of former GM's like Shero/JFJ/Bowman/Flectcher would be where they are without their fathers connections regardless of how they've performed since given their opportunities ?

As Bill gates said "life isn't fair, get over it!" nepotism is rampant through-out our society.

Also why do you even bother posting in a hockey forum when you have no opinion on how the teams being run other than to regurgitate everything mang is saying ? That is a very good question. I do in this forum as I do in life, I am optimistic about the future in general, the Leafs are part of my life. I have been a subscriber for 40 years. Now wouldn't I be a very mentally challenged person if I were a 40 year subscriber and went through life with a cloud over my head?

I see where you are coming from hotpaws but you (like a handful of others) seem to be anti-Leafs no matter what they do.

I cannot wait to see the thread "Leafs Don't Spend to the Cap" once the season starts to see the slagging of Rogers/Bell for only being worried about $$$$$$.

Seems to me the same posters who despised Burke are now setting themselves up to despise Shanahan when it is more appropriate.

 

[Mess]

I agree but i'd have more faith in this new "go slow approach" if there actions backed up there words .

Failing at signing their desired ufa's and then bringing in retreads to fill most of the available roster spots doesn't scream patient rebuild .

It seems like Shanny is just laying down preemptive excuses if this season turns to crap.

I posted my thoughts in this post earlier.

http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showpost.php?p=88039291&postcount=142

 

[hotpaws]

Perhaps I've interpreted your meaning incorrectly but, signing some short term UFA's to fill out the roster because you didn't get the guys you desired this year seems very much like a patient approach.

The patient approach would have been to deal our ufa's for picks/prospects not to let them walk for nothing when we can't resign them . The patient approach would have been to leave some spots open for a few Marlies and not to fill them with retreads from around the league .

This team keeps trying to sell youth and patience to mask their incompetence but there actions betray them.

 

[hotpaws]

I see where you are coming from hotpaws but you (like a handful of others) seem to be anti-Leafs no matter what they do.

I cannot wait to see the thread "Leafs Don't Spend to the Cap" once the season starts to see the slagging of Rogers/Bell for only being worried about $$$$$$.

Seems to me the same posters who despised Burke are now setting themselves up to despise Shanahan when it is more appropriate.

It's not about being an "anti leaf fan" or being an optimist or pessimist it's about wanting the team to lay down a solid foundation for future success . It's about being realistic and realizing we have to get off this treadmill where we're trying to build this team by sucking and blowing at the same time .

I grew to despise Burke because i saw him leading us down a path to no where . Nonis then kept on the same doomed path which led to TL bringing in Shanny .

If Shanny is still going to follow this current path then i don't see any reason to be optimistic .

The best thing that could happen to this franchise is a bottom 3/5 finish as well as dumping DP/JL who will not be significant assets when the pick/MR/WN hopefully lead this team .

I'm turning 50 this fall and i'm tired of this franchise stumbling around like some drunken fool in a quest for the holy grail .

Building a team isn't like finding the cure for cancer . Bottom feed for a few years while selling older players for picks/prospects and then once a few quality assets are acquired through the draft to form your foundation you slowly build around them . If you've drafted and developed properly then plugging holes by using excess prospects in trades and the ufa market shouldn't be that difficult .

This idea that you could build a bottom end team by trading picks and through free agency was sheer lunacy and i'm shocked how many fans bought into it .

 

[Pholus]

That also depends on if the Leafs want to keep Franson and Reimer though,I can see one if not both traded. Is Ashton able to sign a 2-way deal or is that over now?

Any player is able to sign a 2-way deal, but he will now have to pass through waivers to be assigned to the AHL if that is what you mean.

 

[Mess]

I agree but i'd have more faith in this new "go slow approach" if there actions backed up there words .

Failing at singing there desired ufa's and then bringing in retreads to fill most of the available roster spots doesn't scream patient rebuild .

It seems like Shanny is just laying down preemptive excuses if this season turns to crap.

Well if the retreads don't have any meaningful impact or are unable to improve the team and the 8th worst team last season drops into the bottom 5 this year if the season turns to crap then wouldn't that be considered a success if your #1 priority is draft rebuilding?

With the moves the Leafs have made then this is certainly the possibility. When you replace players with lesser versions of themselves the logical outcome is not to expect improvement.

The higher the draft pick the better the potential to land a better future player.

 

[Pholus]

The patient approach would have been to deal our ufa's for picks/prospects not to let them walk for nothing when we can't resign them . The patient approach would have been to leave some spots open for a few Marlies and not to fill them with retreads from around the league .

This team keeps trying to sell youth and patience to mask their incompetence but there actions betray them.

So you want to just hand the spots to young guys, whether they have earned it or not? That seems like more of the same old 'entitlement' that was a problem for the Leafs in the past. What happens if the Marlies are handed these spots and then show that they can't handle it? At least this way, we have guys who can step in and allow our prospects to continue developing in the minors instead of rushing them if they aren't ready for the NHL.

 

[Northern Dancer]

Well if the retreads don't have any meaningful impact or are unable to improve the team and the 8th worst team last season drops into the bottom 5 this year if the season turns to crap then wouldn't that be considered a success if your #1 priority is draft rebuilding?

With the moves the Leafs have made then this is certainly the possibility. When you replace players with lesser versions of themselves the logical outcome is not to expect improvement.

The higher the draft pick the better the potential to land a better future player.

Mess, you must be very happy with where we are right now then as some on here think the leafs are going nowhere this year.