Speculation: Maple Leafs' busy offseason plans (all-encompassing Leafs thread)

[Leafs87]

Just like Tavares was, Petro would be a bad signing at anything above 8. We need him now sure. But our cap is already bad and having Petro making 8+ at 34+ is bad.

 

[BAM]

Tavares was not needed, he was the overkill that gave you the cap issues.
I get Pajama boy was a free asset and still a really good player but you guys would have been fine and more balanced with Matthews - Nylander/Kadri as your top two Cs.

1. Tavares was needed. Matthews missed time his 2nd and 3rd year in the league. Without Tavares, our center depth when Matthews went out was Kadri-Bozak-Gauthier which is horrible.

2. The problem wasn't trading Kadri, it was who they traded him for. The Bruins series with Tavares showed that the Leafs needed another Muzzin type. And the Leafs still lost in 7 with Kadri being suspended after game 2.

Investing your money in trash is what the Panthers do (see BOBO). The Leafs got a franchise center that can go ppg in his sleep regardless of who his wingers are.

 

[57special]

Am i the only one who thinks that Kapanen wasn't overpaid at 3.2M? He's a decent middle six forward. Surely you can't expect to pay guys 1M/yr and get any sort of quality on a regular basis.

 

[Legion34]

Am i the only one who thinks that Kapanen wasn't overpaid at 3.2M? He's a decent middle six forward. Surely you can't expect to pay guys 1M/yr and get any sort of quality on a regular basis.

kapanen was fine.... so are kerfoot and AJ.

They are right inline with comparables

 

[TheImpatientPanther]

1. Tavares was needed. Matthews missed time his 2nd and 3rd year in the league. Without Tavares, our center depth when Matthews went out was Kadri-Bozak-Gauthier which is horrible.

2. The problem wasn't trading Kadri, it was who they traded him for. The Bruins series with Tavares showed that the Leafs needed another Muzzin type. And the Leafs still lost in 7 with Kadri being suspended after game 2.

Investing your money in trash is what the Panthers do (see BOBO). The Leafs got a franchise center that can go ppg in his sleep regardless of who his wingers are.

1) All that help from Tavares and you still lost to CBJ and got shutout 2 of 5 games.
Nobody is saying Tavares isn't a good player, just the cap space would have been better used balancing out the defense.
NYI is doing fine without JT no?

2) Then why trade him if it didn't fit the needs? Pressure from the media because Kadri plays on the edge?
Seems to be doing fine during these playoffs.

Nice deflection, TOR not winning a series in 16 years is somehow way better than FLA not winning won in 24 years?

 

[seanlinden]

Ristolanien for Kerfoot Johnson Pitts 1st

Then sign Gudas

Rielly-Risto
Muzzin-Gudas
Dermit-Sandin/Holl

Objectively, Toronto can't afford to move Kerfoot and not bring in a competent 3rd line CM

As well, on the blueline, Holl has earned his spot in the top 4. If they bring in Risto (or another bonafide top 4 guy), a luxury like Gudas would likely come at the cost of a Dermott.

 

[Dache]

Who here wouldn't like to have a core of Mathews,Marner,Tavares and Pietrangelo? Lololol but the Leafs are dumb lololol. Teams lock up core players and sacrifice others. Its not anything new. "But team X signed this great player for cheap". That's great. We didn't. Get over it.

No one is saying they don’t like those players. It’s a great core. The issue is with the amount they’re making you can’t build properly around them.

 

[BB88]

I wouldn't be surprised at all if the Leafs made some pretty big trades after the playoffs. We're talking Nylander, Johnsson, Holl etc gone. I'm not banking on Pietrangelo signing here at all, so there will be space assuming the re-tool does happen. I dont think theres any doubt that the Leafs will be looking at guys like Tanev,Gudas etc to even things out. Lots of assumptions on my part but Dubas has to shift some salary to the blue line. Its inevitable.

I mean you'd have to trade a guy like Nylander to add Pietrangelo and keeping Andersson/getting a new quality goalie.
But if you are landing Pietro you trade Nylander without a question.

Ou make trades like thy did with Kapanen , you draft well like they have with Johnsson, Dermott, Robertson, Nylander, Sandin, Matthews Rielly and Brown and others.

You find undrafted players like they did with Moore, Mikieyhev and to a lesser extent Zaitisev
You have to be smart but it is doable in fact they have been doing it that's why they could trade Kapanen and likely not even feel it because if they do anything right it is find and develop wingers.

Centr depth is a different story beyond Matthews and Tavares there isn't much there

But wingers they are good at finding

You just won't simply have the cap space to add Pietro while keeping contending level depth.
You won't be able to have 15 contracts making max million.

The question isn't can you have a team with 7 guys taking 60M from 82M cap hit, it's how can you have a contender in that scenario.

 

[BB88]

Am i the only one who thinks that Kapanen wasn't overpaid at 3.2M? He's a decent middle six forward. Surely you can't expect to pay guys 1M/yr and get any sort of quality on a regular basis.

Kapanen contract is great and exactly what good teams need.

Ability to score 40-50 points, one of the fastest players in the league and threat on pk, versatile forward making 3 million.

 

[DueDiligence]

kapanen was fine.... so are kerfoot and AJ.

They are right inline with comparables

But you can't pay those guys what they are worth when you have the "big 4" making $40 million.

 

[Fatass]

Kapanen contract is great and exactly what good teams need.

Ability to score 40-50 points, one of the fastest players in the league and threat on pk, versatile forward making 3 million.

Like Kap and what he brings to a team. We see in the playoffs, when given opportunity, these are the support players teams win with.

 

[AvroArrow]

Ummmm they all happen to be under 10mill each.

9.5 - Malkin
8.7 - Crosby
7.25 - Letang

24.5mill for those three.

Compared to the 33.5 of the Leafs big 3. Almost 10mill in difference.

They all signed under what the going rate at the time for star power was 10mill+. The going rate now is around 11-12.5mill for top level. They were still signing under league highs.

The whole thing that you are getting at about the pandemic and the cap is an issue with everyone. Not just Toronto. It’s just for all the praise Dubas gets he handled the cap space terribly. They’ve had the same results with Tavares that they had without him. He wanted to come to Toronto they should of got a discount. Especially for the past 5yrs their issue has been defense but hey let’s get another center which they didn’t even need. Lock up Holl at 2mill per for the role he plays you could of got someone from league minimum to 1mill to do. Marner was given a ton of money as well. It’s Dubas you should be after no complaining about Pittsburgh’s roster and how they are ok and not struggling with cap problems. Every team is facing it not just Toronto like I said earlier.

The problem is Marner and Tavares for as bad as they wanted to be in Toronto they didn’t give any home town discount. Where as Crosby and Malkin took less to be able to insulate the team with capable wingers and grit.

Their issue is their defense was subpar this year as well as goaltending in the playins. Toronto’s big 3 the only one who really tried and showed up was Matthews. Toronto needs their big 3 to show up. Their defense played decent in the playins.

Except Crosby signed a 12 year deal in 2008. Not sure how one can logically compare it to a contract signed in 2019-2020

Crosby was the 2nd highest paid player in the league at that point

 

[shaner8989]

Ummmm they all happen to be under 10mill each.

9.5 - Malkin
8.7 - Crosby
7.25 - Letang

24.5mill for those three.

Compared to the 33.5 of the Leafs big 3. Almost 10mill in difference.

They all signed under what the going rate at the time for star power was 10mill+. The going rate now is around 11-12.5mill for top level. They were still signing under league highs.

The whole thing that you are getting at about the pandemic and the cap is an issue with everyone. Not just Toronto. It’s just for all the praise Dubas gets he handled the cap space terribly. They’ve had the same results with Tavares that they had without him. He wanted to come to Toronto they should of got a discount. Especially for the past 5yrs their issue has been defense but hey let’s get another center which they didn’t even need. Lock up Holl at 2mill per for the role he plays you could of got someone from league minimum to 1mill to do. Marner was given a ton of money as well. It’s Dubas you should be after no complaining about Pittsburgh’s roster and how they are ok and not struggling with cap problems. Every team is facing it not just Toronto like I said earlier.

The problem is Marner and Tavares for as bad as they wanted to be in Toronto they didn’t give any home town discount. Where as Crosby and Malkin took less to be able to insulate the team with capable wingers and grit.

Their issue is their defense was subpar this year as well as goaltending in the playins. Toronto’s big 3 the only one who really tried and showed up was Matthews. Toronto needs their big 3 to show up. Their defense played decent in the playins.

Cap was also significantly lower then.

 

[DueDiligence]

You'd almost think Pittsburgh didn't do this Crosby, Malkin and Letang. Fortunately for Pittsburgh there was no pandemic causing the anticipated cap escalation to vanish after inking those controls. How dare Dubas not factor COVID-19 into his long-term plans.

First off, 2 forwards and 1 D helps your team a lot more than 4 forwards. As well if you look at each player at their time of signing: Crosby > Matthews, Malkin > Tavares and Letang > Marner ( Letang being a Dman being is key).
Other teams have to deal with CoVid but Dubas used virtually every dollar of his cap leaving no room to make any moves w/o major changes.

 

[Fatass]

You're an idiot. Take a look at what the cap was when they signed.

And those contracts were signed with the expectation the cap will go up and make them valued over time, which happened. The big cap problem with the Leafs is their big 3 (Nylander’s too, but it’s not so crazy high) contracts were signed on the same premise, but the cap is now flat and will be for several years. Difficult to build out a balanced roster with these big contracts and a flat cap. Matthews has four years, and we are already seeing a decline in Tavares. Marner is great, signed long term, and will be great for his entire contract. Who do the Leafs trade to create the needed cap room to better balance their lineup with good players, and not just cheap guys? Can’t trade Tavares, so it comes down to AM or MM.

 

[Bobby Terrance]

And those contracts were signed with the expectation the cap will go up and make them valued over time, which happened. The big cap problem with the Leafs is their big 3 (Nylander’s too, but it’s not so crazy high) contracts were signed on the same premise, but the cap is now flat and will be for several years. Difficult to build out a balanced roster with these big contracts and a flat cap. Matthews has four years, and we are already seeing a decline in Tavares. Marner is great, signed long term, and will be great for his entire contract. Who do the Leafs trade to create the needed cap room to better balance their lineup with good players, and not just cheap guys? Can’t trade Tavares, so it comes down to AM or MM.

What a moron dubas is for not seeing that covid would happen. Also just no, you can't say JT is declining already. Could have easily been an off year.

 

[Legion34]

But you can't pay those guys what they are worth when you have the "big 4" making $40 million.

Well you could when the cap was expected to jump 10-20 million in the next 3-6 years.

now you cant and adequately address D

 

[DueDiligence]

Cap was also significantly lower then.

But at the time Crosby was the best player in the league and Malkin was at minimum a top 5 centre. So you pay more for that type of talent. Matthews is a top centre ( 3-7 in the league) but Tavares is not in the top 10.

 

[Fatass]

What a moron dubas is for not seeing that covid would happen. Also just no, you can't say JT is declining already. Could have easily been an off year.

Dubas isn’t a moron. He only did the same as previously done by other GMs. That being said, the flat cap is here, and it’s really bad for the Leafs, because of those hedged contracts. JT is soon to be 30. Guys tend to decline as they age into their 30’s. Very few don’t. Although JT’s role did change after Kadri was traded to take on a lot more D zone starts. His decline in production could be a combination of aging and changing role.

 

[DueDiligence]

What a moron dubas is for not seeing that covid would happen. Also just no, you can't say JT is declining already. Could have easily been an off year.

JT's best year with the Leafs will end up being his first in 2018-19. Virtually no player's stats remain the same once they have hit 30 years old.

 

[DueDiligence]

Well you could when the cap was expected to jump 10-20 million in the next 3-6 years.

now you cant and adequately address D

What would a cap increase in 3-6 years do for the Leafs now? JT will be 30 when the new season starts. Matthews will be a free agent in 4 years.
In no way was Dubas seriously looking at what the cap would be 3-4 years down the road. He needs room for next year.

 

[57special]

Usually, the better the player is, the slower they decline.

The BIG difference between the Pens trio and the Leafs trio is that the Pens were Cup champions when they received their deals, while the Leafs have won nothing. That leads to a perception that one group of players is all about winning, the other all about the money.

You could say the same about Kane and Toews/Keith, Doughty and Kopitar, Bergeron and Marchand/Chara. They all got their money AFTER they won a Cup(s), and sometimes not even then.

Buffalo made the same mistake with Eichel and Skinner that Toronto made with their Big three. Somehow trapped themselves into giving huge amounts of cap space to players who, ultimately, have not delivered.

 

[ER89]

The year those players were signed and the cap was 71.4mill. It was 34% of their cap.

The 3 of Toronto is 41% of their cap at 81.5mill.

7% difference on the cap.

The Penguins also has a more complete roster from top to bottom with role players and grit and skill with the extra cap they had. They would go on to win back to back cups shortly after signing those 3 long term.

The situation the Leafs are in is no defense outside of Muzzin and Rielly. Not enough grit to go with the skill which is needed to play in the playoffs. They will get there but the last thing they want to do is bring on Pietrangelo at 10mill. They will be looking at league minimums and ELCs to fill out their roster atleast for the next 5yrs if they keep Marner / Matthews / Tavares / Nylander and possibly Pietrangelo.

Despite the argument going against my leafs, this is the type of reply I like. Non-emotional, fairly objective and well reasoned. Nice man.

 

[Legion34]

What would a cap increase in 3-6 years do for the Leafs now? JT will be 30 when the new season starts. Matthews will be a free agent in 4 years.
In no way was Dubas seriously looking at what the cap would be 3-4 years down the road. He needs room for next year.

huh? The cap was projected to go to 84-88 next year ... multiple RFA took bridge deals because they didn’t want to lock in too long before the expansion/tv bump.

with all 3 dubas had like 6 million to spend this year if the cap went to 84.

Now with the trade, he has 4.5 ish to spend on a. Ufa D.

if he trades one of Johnson/kerfoot. He can go up to 7.....
try cap friendly. It’s actually not nearly as dire as people believe.

with the crisis and a top 15 pick The leafs can easily Get a top 4 d with that money either in ufa/trade.

 

[Tairy Greene]

Usually, the better the player is, the slower they decline.

The BIG difference between the Pens trio and the Leafs trio is that the Pens were Cup champions when they received their deals, while the Leafs have won nothing. That leads to a perception that one group of players is all about winning, the other all about the money.

You could say the same about Kane and Toews/Keith, Doughty and Kopitar, Bergeron and Marchand/Chara. They all got their money AFTER they won a Cup(s), and sometimes not even then.

Buffalo made the same mistake with Eichel and Skinner that Toronto made with their Big three. Somehow trapped themselves into giving huge amounts of cap space to players who, ultimately, have not delivered.

So was it a mistake for Edmonton to give McDavid big money? He hasn't won anything. You have to pay your top talent.