Mantha

[Heaton]

People got way too low on him because he didn't immediately tear up the AHL. Same thing with Sproul when he had a bad(learning) year, and it's kinda happening with Larkin too. These guys don't lose their potential because they had some learning to do. People just have zero patience for development. Mantha's potential was and is 1st line winger, and he looks right on track to be one.

Yeah, we'll see. Nyquist looked like he might be a 1st line winger when he first came up too. I want to see Mantha put up 30+ goals before I believe he's anywhere close to becoming a 1st line winger.

 

[chances14]

I want to see Mantha put up 30+ goals before I believe he's anywhere close to becoming a 1st line winger.

and in multiple seasons

 

[ArGarBarGar]

Yeah, we'll see. Nyquist looked like he might be a 1st line winger when he first came up too. I want to see Mantha put up 30+ goals before I believe he's anywhere close to becoming a 1st line winger.

Yeah but hasn't the projection from the get-go that Mantha was going to be a 1st line winger if he progresses as expected?

I always thought the Jeff Carter comparison was a good one.

 

[Pavels Dog]

Yeah, we'll see. Nyquist looked like he might be a 1st line winger when he first came up too. I want to see Mantha put up 30+ goals before I believe he's anywhere close to becoming a 1st line winger.

I respect your stance of pumping the breaks on Mantha, but I don't feel it's worth comparing him to players that are so different and have limitations that Mantha simply doesn't have. There are no guarantees, but we're not talking about some late round pick. It's a guy who scored a goal per game in juniors who is not putting it together at the pro level.

 

[Frk It]

Can someone please tell me what quantifies/qualifies a 1st line winger, 2nd line, 3rd line winger, etc? I see those terms thrown around a lot with completely arbitrary preconceived noions of what they mean.

There are very few 60-70 pt wingers in the modern NHL. You're not only a 1st line winger at that production, but an elite one. If you score 50-55 pts you are a low end 1st line winger.

When I see people call Nyquist and Tatar "3rd line wingers" it's hysterical. If you wan to call them tweeners, you can, but they are 1st/2nd line wingers, not 2nd/3rd line wingers. Actually they have put up 1st/2nd line production despite only given 2nd/3rd line minutes up until this season.

If you don't believe me go to NHL.com, sort by position and filter by LW and RW, and count how many wingers produce more than 50 pts. If you want me to save you time -- It's not nearly as many as you think.

Now I'm trying to figure out why so many .5 ppg wingers hit free agency when there's not a ton of wingers league-wide that score over 50 pts. That's not really making sense to me. Seems like teams would want to hold onto those guys more than they do.

Sorry for the tangent/rant. Hopefully Mantha can end up in that elite winger group.

 

[Heaton]

I understand your point, but I'll use the term 1st line winger as someone in the 60-65pt range on a consistent basis. If Mantha tops out at 55 points, I'll be extremely disappointed.

 

[Frk It]

I understand your point, but I'll use the term 1st line winger as someone in the 60-65pt range on a consistent basis. If Mantha tops out at 55 points, I'll be extremely disappointed.

So in your eyes, you specifically think of 1st line wingers as the higher end wingers. I can understand that. Just wanted to shed some light on that because it's becoming more and more rare.

I hope Mantha gets there as well.

 

[Heaton]

So in your eyes, you specifically think of 1st line wingers as the higher end wingers. I can understand that. Just wanted to shed some light on that because it's becoming more and more rare.

I hope Mantha gets there as well.

Yes, I don't consider Justin Abdelkader a 1st line winger just because he plays in the 1st line or scores 20 goals a couple times.

 

[Winger98]

I'll throw an opinion into this first line wing discussion. For me, it goes a bit beyond numbers. I think of a first liner as a guy who can routinely change the flow of the game when they are on the ice. They are almost never confused for complimentary players.

This is why guys like Tatar and Nyquist aren't "first liners" for me, regardless of production right now. If your first line guys can't go out there and tilt the ice almost at will, then you have placeholders in those spots until you get those guys.

 

[Frk It]

Yes, I don't consider Justin Abdelkader a 1st line winger just because he plays in the 1st line or scores 20 goals a couple times.

Me neither, but he's also never cracked 50 pts in his life. Despite being given good linemates and a healthy amount of minutes.

 

[Frk It]

I'll throw an opinion into this first line wing discussion. For me, it goes a bit beyond numbers. I think of a first liner as a guy who can routinely change the flow of the game when they are on the ice. They are almost never confused for complimentary players.

This is why guys like Tatar and Nyquist aren't "first liners" for me, regardless of production right now. If your first line guys can't go out there and tilt the ice almost at will, then you have placeholders in those spots until you get those guys.

The advanced stats tell you that Tatar has a pretty big impact on possession when he is on the ice the last few years. Although it could be because he played with Datsyuk a decent amount.

Larkin has actually shown an ability to do this, even when the points aren't there.

Athansiou is also pretty darn good at driving the play.

The trouble with this how you described it is, is it's hard to quantify that. It's almost entirely an opinion.

 

[Winger98]

The advanced stats tell you that Tatar has a pretty big impact on possession when he is on the ice the last few years. Although it could be because he played with Datsyuk a decent amount.

Larkin has actually shown an ability to do this, even when the points aren't there.

Athansiou is also pretty darn good at driving the play.

The trouble with this how you described it is, is it's hard to quantify that. It's almost entirely an opinion.

It's opinion, but I think it's something that's also pretty clear. Just my opinion, but I don't think you usually need stats to support it. Fedorov and Yzerman drove the play. Shanny could tilt the ice. Today, Kane does it. Ovie. etc.

Agree about Larkin, and I think Mantha shows a lot of signs for it. Really wish he was a center.

Athanasiou seems more like a counter puncher, though. This comparison is going to feel really ugly, but Petr Klima. I'm not saying he's as one dimension as Klima (though I loved the guy), but that same come out of nowhere and put one in the net, then going back to wherever he is the rest of the game. I'm really not as high on Athanasiou as a lot of others are, though. Maybe I'm just biased.

 

[Henkka]

Good game again against Florida. Too bad he didn't bury those chances. 2 passes also for quality chances.

 

[ap3x]

Yet again some great plays by Mantha. At least one of the few positives from the game.

 

[avssuc]

Can someone please tell me what quantifies/qualifies a 1st line winger, 2nd line 3rd line winger, etc? I see those terms thrown around a lot with completely arbitrary preconceived noions of what they mean.

There are very few 60-70 pt wingers in the modern NHL. You're not only a 1st line winger at that production, but an elite one. If you score 50-55 pts you are a low end 1st line winger.

When I see people call Nyquist and Tatar "3rd line wingers" it's hysterical. If you wan to call them tweeners, you can, but they are 1st/2nd line wingers, not 2nd/3rd line wingers. Actually they have put up 1st/2nd line production despite only given 2nd/3rd line minutes up until this season.

If you don't believe me go to NHL.com, sort by position and filter by LW and RW, and count how many wingers produce more than 50 pts. If you want me to save you time -- It's not nearly as many as you think.

Now I'm trying to figure out why so many .5 ppg wingers hit free agency when there's not a ton of wingers league-wide that score over 50 pts. That's not really making sense to me. Seems like teams would want to hold onto those guys more than they do.

Sorry for the tangent/rant. Hopefully Mantha can end up in that elite winger group.

Someone that "pulls the piano". Abdelkader, Helm, Glendening, that type. Mantha needs more AHL time to round out his game.

 

[SpookyTsuki]

He's a 1st liner on this team

 

[splot]

Holy cow, people have gone 0 to 60 on Mantha. I'll be happy if he's a decent 2nd line winger, but we've got people bringing out the anointing oil already.

For me it hasn't been anything like that, it's more been a case of getting more and more excited for him. I remember when people were saying he should be in the NHL right when he came of that great season in the QMJHL, just from watching the prospect tournament I thought that was ludicrous. He obviously had huge flaws in his game away from the puck and the same moves that worked when you played as a man among boys weren't gonna fly in the NHL. But he had the size, skating and scoring touch that still made me confident there were a good chance he'd be able to work those flaws out.

And when people were hugely disappointed with his AHL season after he broke his leg, I saw progress in the areas he was struggling before. I didn't put too much stock in that the points weren't raining in, the scoring touch was always there, just not the overall game sense. His next season was much of the same, steadily improvements in the AHL while looking decent in his stint in the NHL. And I thought he was more often than not the best player on the ice during the AHL playoff, that sort of things stand out to me.

This year he absolutely killed the AHL and are already playing as a solid second liner in the NHL. Yes, he still has some areas to work on, but it's hard to not be optimistic when a 22 year old is looking so good and has the tools Mantha has. Every player develops at different rates, some are as good as they get at 22. I don't think that's case with Mantha, I still think that the improvements he needs to make is how he reads the ice and the plays. And I don't think and hope he's as brain dead as Smith so that won't ever happen cause I've seen so steady progression in that area over the last two years.

 

[steafo]

He's a 1st liner on this team

I think he's a first liner on most team. He just oozes offensive talent. I was surprised with his playmaking ability. He uses his reach so well to shield the puck and then dish at the last second. I noticed this was especially effective in entering the zone. I actually like him with Z but I hope they keep him up when AA comes back and they play together. He was also the first guy back on a backcheck quite a few times. Not bad for a lazy floater. I'm sold.

 

[ap3x]

Someone that "pulls the piano". Abdelkader, Helm, Glendening, that type. Mantha needs more AHL time to round out his game.

I don't see it that way. Both Mantha & Larkin should play on the big stage right now. Mantha rounded his game out pretty much after the criticism he got and looks really good right now. I don't see the purpose in parking him with the Griffins again. Especially when considering all the injuries we have. They (read: Wings organisation) wanted him to make a big step forward, and that's what he did.

 

[avssuc]

I don't see it that way. Both Mantha & Larkin should play on the big stage right now. Mantha rounded his game out pretty much after the criticism he got and looks really good right now. I don't see the purpose in parking him with the Griffins again. Especially when considering all the injuries we have. They (read: Wings organisation) wanted him to make a big step forward, and that's what he did.

I was 100% not serious, I probably should have made that clear though.


So yea, I'm totally with ya on that. Now hopefully the Wings lose enough to grab that Swedish defensemen in this year's draft.

Do you have any info for us on Liljegren that we can't get in the US? I heard he walked away from the game last winter for an extended holiday... is that a concern?

 

[Konnan511]

His passing and vision is much better than I anticipated. If Zetterberg could have finished that tap in goal, we would be gushing even more about Mantha.

 

[Ezekial]

I was 100% not serious, I probably should have made that clear though.


So yea, I'm totally with ya on that. Now hopefully the Wings lose enough to grab that Swedish defensemen in this year's draft.

Do you have any info for us on Liljegren that we can't get in the US? I heard he walked away from the game last winter for an extended holiday... is that a concern?

Liljegren 2017 and Svechnikov 2018


Make this franchise great again.

 

[InGusWeTrust]

He is fitting into line 1 role now...at least on DRW. The potential to turn into what some call 1st line winger and others call elite winger...is there. That we can not deny. If he will reach it or not is the debate.


Wonder how many goals Mantha would score on a line with Getzlaf/Perry?

 

[MBauer]

His passing and vision is much better than I anticipated. If Zetterberg could have finished that tap in goal, we would be gushing even more about Mantha.

He should easily have 2-3+ more assists if this team knew how to score, outside of the NJ game they have been absolutely garbage since he's been up.

 

[aar000n]

People saying Mantha doesnt look good. Funny people funny.