Confirmed with Link: Mantha traded to Washington

[SirloinUB]

But you need to separate "Washington Mantha" from "Detroit Mantha".

If the trade return was based on just the former, then yes, the Wings should have gotten more. But Tony was never going to play for the Wings like he is currently playing for the Caps (in any sustained capacity, anyway).

Washington may have gotten a superb player. But that doesn't mean that Mantha would have played like that in this town with this roster.

Had Detroit kept him and he continued to look mediocre, how is that better use of assets?

But a players value is defined by his ability + his potential. So my point is his trade value should have been higher because mantha had the potential to do exactly what he is doing once traded to a good situation.

Why on earth would we ignore a players potential when assessing their trade value?

 

[jaster]

What was the reason for his total lack of effort and disappearing on a regular basis in the QMJHL? Stop acting like this was some new phenomenon only in Detroit , lol. This is who he is as a player

Mantha has his fanboys. Every player does, I guess. It would be better if the fanboys just said, "I'm a fanboy and I will bristle at all valid criticism of my player," rather that try to claim that his faults are shared by all players and that pointing them out is a "fad" lol.

 

[Gniwder]

But you need to separate "Washington Mantha" from "Detroit Mantha".

Or just separate Washington PP (including delayed penalty) from Detroit PP.

Both Vrana and Mantha have the same number of 5 on 5 points and goals.... ONE

I'm still on the fire Disco train.

 

[jaster]

Why is there such a need to shit on Mantha post-trade?

I just want to go on record saying that I've been "shitting on" Mantha for years (outside of his about 365-day stretch where he seemed to shelve his laziness and manage to dominate). So don't no one go around sayin' my lampooning of Mantha is some kind of new phenomenon!

 

[jkutswings]

Why on earth would we ignore a players potential when assessing their trade value?

I'm not saying to ignore it. Think of it as an analog of salary arbitration. One side says that a guy deserves the sun and moon because of how good he could be. The other side says he deserves a lot less based on his flaws. And the truth is somewhere in between.

 

[MBH]

Go Mantha.
I'd be happy to see him raise the cup - even if it costs us 10 spots in the draft.
Regardless.
Replacing Mantha with Zadina on the first PP unit... not sure if that's a Blash decision or a Bylsma decision, but it's another example of the stupidity of our coaching staff.

People heaping all the blame on Mantha...
We have virtually an entire roster of players who've performed at 3rd and 4th line offensive production.

Points/60 at 5 on 5.
Larkin - 1.26 (fallen from 2.27 to 1.94 to 1.79 to 1.26)
Mantha - 1.28 (down from 2.45 last year, 1.6 and 1.88 previously)
Zadina - 1.13 (down from 1.41 last year)
Ryan - 1.38 (down from 1.64 last year)

Fabbri - 2.1/60 - is the only guy producing at or above reasonable top 6 production. Erne (1.5) is pretty close.

 

[Steve Yzerlland]

Go Mantha.
I'd be happy to see him raise the cup - even if it costs us 10 spots in the draft.

Yes. I want the Wings to have worse luck than we already do too.

 

[SirloinUB]

I'm not saying to ignore it. Think of it as an analog of salary arbitration. One side says that a guy deserves the sun and moon because of how good he could be. The other side says he deserves a lot less based on his flaws. And the truth is somewhere in between.

Your analogy falls apart because there was no requirement to negotiate. Detroit had full control on the situation with mantha locked under contract.

moreover, my entire point was the potential of these results that are happening should have been factored into the trade value.

 

[jaster]

Mantha's got Franzen syndrome where people see the physical tools he has and how dominant he can be at times and expect him to be able to do it all the time and be literally the best player in the league

then when he isn't good enough to do that people view it as a lack of effort when really it's mostly just their expectations being too high

it's disappointing since you'd think people would know better by now but whatever

lol

"I'm a fanboy and I will bristle at all valid criticism of my player."

There. Fixed.

 

[jaster]

Big, talented players will always be picked on for lack of effort because they don't need to play like they are shot out of a cannon every second they are on the ice. Everyone looks at the size and strength and assumes that it needs to be deployed and be a physically dominant player every second of every game. Not every big player engages the way that Moritz Seider has engaged the AHL and SHL. One of the greatest, if not the greatest, goal scorers the sport has ever seen (and Mantha's new teammate) is notorious for failing to put in the same type of effort that people expect to see from Mantha. When you look at guys like Bertuzzi or Larkin or Glendening. Those types of players, without their effort level, aren't good hockey players. Their effort level is what keeps them relevant in the league. Not every player can be the guy that Larkin is, playing the top line built off work ethic. Too many of those players and the line won't gel. I think we are looking at the reality of Mantha. He's a guy who is best served just being there to receive passes and put them in the net. Plain and simple. If he is a guy whose effort level comes into question but can pot 35+, then really who gives a f***. Odds are his value is going to be way more positive than it is negative.

This is only partially true. Lowering the bar for Mantha to "he should just receive passes and shoot the puck" flies in the face of what we have seen him capable of, which is so much more. This guy, at the top of his game, is dominant in multiple facets of the game, not just receiving passes and shooting. He's also at times not skating at all and giving up possession to the other team. And there is a middle ground between that profile and Larkin's. I've never heard anyone say Mantha needs to be like Larkin. People just want him to not have such a wide separation in effort/compete levels.

 

[Gniwder]

But a players value is defined by his ability + his potential. So my point is his trade value should have been higher because mantha had the potential to do exactly what he is doing once traded to a good situation.

Why on earth would we ignore a players potential when assessing their trade value?

The Wings received a 1st for that potential. Vrana had better stats this season prior to the trade, which is what confused some stat watching Caps fans.

 

[jaster]

But a players value is defined by his ability + his potential. So my point is his trade value should have been higher because mantha had the potential to do exactly what he is doing once traded to a good situation.

Why on earth would we ignore a players potential when assessing their trade value?

Potential adds nothing to trades. Likelihood of that potential is what can get you something. And while most of us here agree that Mantha will probably perform better, or at least put up more points, in Washington, it should shock no one that MacLellan wouldn't just up and agree with that position. He has to assess risk from his end and consider the likelihood of getting sloppy Mantha. And that's where he and Stevie likely had to work to meet in the middle. At what point on that spectrum they agreed is now where everyone here is disagreeing.

 

[jaster]

Go Mantha.
I'd be happy to see him raise the cup - even if it costs us 10 spots in the draft.

Info I have on Mantha indicates that he's a real good dude off the ice, pretty top notch individual (unlike the last scoring winger we traded). Based on that, I wish him the best. If he wins the Cup, I hope it's not until 2023 though.

 

[raymond23]

I just don't understand why Mantha plays at such a slow pace. It seems like something that is very correctable through proper coaching. He doesn't understand what makes him successful. Right now he gets by purely due to his skill level.

If he played at a higher pace, like he did for stretches last year, he would be a top 20 winger in the league or even better. Instead he floats around the ice and has very little impact on the play outside of scoring. Even right now for the Caps he just doesn't impress me outside of the points.

I look at someone like Blake Wheeler and wonder why Mantha can't be just as impactful. But you watch the two play and Wheeler is twice the player Mantha is.

Someone is eventually going to wake Mantha up, maybe for a season or two, and it's going to be hard to watch as a Wings fan. But right now he's the same player that we saw in Detroit, he's just playing with one of the more skilled groups in the league so his production is going to be great.

 

[Hen Kolland]

This is only partially true. Lowering the bar for Mantha to "he should just receive passes and shoot the puck" flies in the face of what we have seen him capable of, which is so much more. This guy, at the top of his game, is dominant in multiple facets of the game, not just receiving passes and shooting. He's also at times not skating at all and giving up possession to the other team. And there is a middle ground between that profile and Larkin's. I've never heard anyone say Mantha needs to be like Larkin. People just want him to not have such a wide separation in effort/compete levels.

Sure, he is capable of more, but the assertion being made is that the tiger has shown his stripes and is continuing to wear them proudly. That we know what Mantha is, and while he's capable of doing those things while engaged, the frequency that you get that level of engagement is low enough that he in fact is not capable of doing those things.

The major disconnect at this point is Mantha CAN drive play, and the Wings NEEDED Mantha to drive play. The Wings asked him to continually drive play, knowing that they weren't likely to get it on a consistent basis. They don't have the supporting cast that can drive play for him when he isn't playing at the top of the game, which means even the one thing that seemed to be always consistent (his shot being elite level) went completely unutilized.

The Wings NEEDED more, it became more apparent that it wasn't coming, and they made the right choice to move on.

A team like the Caps don't need more play driving. I truly believe they bought him as a trigger man. Yeah, when he's on, he's going to drive his line still; I think that at his best he is a top 3 line driver on the Caps roster. But the major key is that Washington doesn't NEED that out of him. Even if he isn't playing at his best, he can still just be the big dumb oaf that slaps pucks on net and puts up goals because Oshie and Backstrom can do enough to put him in the the position to do so.

 

[SirloinUB]

The Wings received a 1st for that potential. Vrana had better stats this season prior to the trade, which is what confused some stat watching Caps fans.

I’d argue mantha is just outright a better player than Vrana and that why they added a first. They Had similar production while Vrana was getting opportunities with backstrom/kuznetsov and being sheltered from the oppositions top D/forwards by ovechkin meanwhile mantha was going up against the oppositions best D with less talented linemates. I don’t think we got anything for the extra potential of mantha which is my knock here.

We sold Mantha at a discount and bought Vrana at a markup and I don’t think this is being factored into the value and assessment of the trade.

 

[Hen Kolland]

I just don't understand why Mantha plays at such a slow pace. It seems like something that is very correctable through proper coaching. He doesn't understand what makes him successful. Right now he gets by purely due to his skill level.

If he played at a higher pace, like he did for stretches last year, he would be a top 20 winger in the league or even better. Instead he floats around the ice and has very little impact on the play outside of scoring. Even right now for the Caps he just doesn't impress me outside of the points.

I look at someone like Blake Wheeler and wonder why Mantha can't be just as impactful. But you watch the two play and Wheeler is twice the player Mantha is.

Someone is eventually going to wake Mantha up, maybe for a season or two, and it's going to be hard to watch as a Wings fan. But right now he's the same player that we saw in Detroit, he's just playing with one of the more skilled groups in the league so his production is going to be great.

Have you ever played a sport or a video game with someone who just doesn't have the same skill level as you and found yourself somewhere between disbelief and anger? I know that a few of my buddies probably shouldn't be on a golf course, but every time I think to myself "maybe this round will be different" and within short order we are the group of 4 that causes the back up on a golf course that I normally despise.

I think that's really where Mantha was at with Detroit at a certain point. I think he will get accustomed to the pace that Washington plays at and will look different, but Gniwder has been right. Mantha is lost on the cycle at times or the timing seems off because I think he's just used to playing at a ridiculously slow and predictable pace.

 

[OgeeOgelthorpe]

But a players value is defined by his ability + his potential. So my point is his trade value should have been higher because mantha had the potential to do exactly what he is doing once traded to a good situation.

Why on earth would we ignore a players potential when assessing their trade value?

Mantha got us a legit top 6 winger and a 1st round pick. That's about market value for a guy that is as talented as he is.

We traded a big 20 goal scorer with the potential to be a 30 goal guy for a guy that's a smaller, speedier 25 goal scorer. It's not like we traded prime 40 goal Bill Guerin for Anson Carter.

We were paid a 2nd round pick to take Panik in the deal for salary purposes.

 

[SirloinUB]

Mantha got us a legit top 6 winger and a 1st round pick. That's about market value for a guy that is as talented as he is.

We traded a big 20 goal scorer with the potential to be a 30 goal guy for a guy that's a smaller, speedier 25 goal scorer. It's not like we traded prime 40 goal Bill Guerin for Anson Carter.

We were paid a 2nd round pick to take Panik in the deal for salary purposes.

You value Vrana more than I do. I believe he is going to struggle in Detroit. Maybe after he does some of you will understand the systemic issue on our roster and how it impacts some of our players performance. I think he is more of 2/3 line tweener who was in a very good situation.


I fully believe Vrana will be notably worse in Detroit that mantha was and mantha will be better in Washington than Vrana was.

 

[jaster]

Sure, he is capable of more, but the assertion being made is that the tiger has shown his stripes and is continuing to wear them proudly. That we know what Mantha is, and while he's capable of doing those things while engaged, the frequency that you get that level of engagement is low enough that he in fact is not capable of doing those things.

The major disconnect at this point is Mantha CAN drive play, and the Wings NEEDED Mantha to drive play. The Wings asked him to continually drive play, knowing that they weren't likely to get it on a consistent basis. They don't have the supporting cast that can drive play for him when he isn't playing at the top of the game, which means even the one thing that seemed to be always consistent (his shot being elite level) went completely unutilized.

The Wings NEEDED more, it became more apparent that it wasn't coming, and they made the right choice to move on.

A team like the Caps don't need more play driving. I truly believe they bought him as a trigger man. Yeah, when he's on, he's going to drive his line still; I think that at his best he is a top 3 line driver on the Caps roster. But the major key is that Washington doesn't NEED that out of him. Even if he isn't playing at his best, he can still just be the big dumb oaf that slaps pucks on net and puts up goals because Oshie and Backstrom can do enough to put him in the the position to do so.

I see what you're saying, and acknowledge that Washington has players that can do the things Mantha is good, but inconsistent, at. That's fair. Quite a shame for those who think Mantha is a top-5 or top-10, or whatever, winger/forward in the league.

 

[Hen Kolland]

I see what you're saying, and acknowledge that Washington has players that can do the things Mantha is good, but inconsistent, at. That's fair. Quite a shame for those who think Mantha is a top-5 or top-10, or whatever, winger/forward in the league.

Certainly could be top 10 at his position if he was consistently driving play from the wing, but without that aspect being a regular aspect, he won't enter that discussion.

 

[Gniwder]

We sold Mantha at a discount

Because his value was declining. It's what grocery stores do with products coming close to expiration date, mmmm stale bread. (Hot take.... Mantha = stale bread)

and bought Vrana at a markup and I don’t think this is being factored into the value and assessment of the trade.

He was benched twice the prior week. I'm sure Stevie knew what was going on there.

Not to mention Caps fans had the same concern about declining value for Vrana. We even had a guy that visited here yesterday to tell us that.

 

[opivy]

Go Mantha.
I'd be happy to see him raise the cup - even if it costs us 10 spots in the draft.
Regardless.
Replacing Mantha with Zadina on the first PP unit... not sure if that's a Blash decision or a Bylsma decision, but it's another example of the stupidity of our coaching staff.

People heaping all the blame on Mantha...
We have virtually an entire roster of players who've performed at 3rd and 4th line offensive production.

Points/60 at 5 on 5.
Larkin - 1.26 (fallen from 2.27 to 1.94 to 1.79 to 1.26)
Mantha - 1.28 (down from 2.45 last year, 1.6 and 1.88 previously)
Zadina - 1.13 (down from 1.41 last year)
Ryan - 1.38 (down from 1.64 last year)

Fabbri - 2.1/60 - is the only guy producing at or above reasonable top 6 production. Erne (1.5) is pretty close.

I appreciate that you're tracking this detail - but wouldnt the production across the board be expected if some players are on the decline, and the overall quality was reduced while introducing new/young players? My question is - did you expect to see production go up for any of these players with this system in place? Also, if they were looking to move Mantha, it does seem sensible to get Zadina reps on that line - thats me fitting history in to make it easier to swallow - but it has logic.

 

[TheMule93]

Become a Caps fan.

are you saying that if we dont like a trade the red wings make, we shouldnt be a red wings fan anymore?

 

[Gniwder]

What a joke post.

You nitpick his ‘effort’ when the whole team lacks effort and structure most of the time. You, along with others simply will always hate on him because it’s a fad.

The team has been playing with a lot of effort since February. They're .500 since mid Feb, Blash/Stevie benched all the guys that were having issues. Nielsen, Flip, Brome, and Gagner (when everyone was healthy). Stevie is sending an obvious message.

I'll shit on the team as much as everyone else here, but don't confuse lack of talent for lack of effort.