Management V

[SeawaterOnIce]

Handing out cap crippling contracts to medicore players like Sutter, Beagle, Ferland, Eriksson and Myers should be grounds for an immediate firing. What is that now? 24 mil in dead cap space?

 

[Horse McHindu]

Yeah, it may not be predictive but it's still just a measure of what's occurring on the ice. And it's not like there is ranking was a fantastic indicator like it was suggested anyways.

The Canucks are better than last year, mid pack team in the standings and by most metrics. Their Goal differential is still looking pretty good, but we already know how they built most of that in October vs LA and Detroit.

what do “the metrics” say about the Canucks going .500 on a tough road trip despite battling some key injuries to key players?

what do “the metrics” say about our Power Play, Goals For, and how close we are to a playoff spot?

 

[Hit the post]

what do “the metrics” say about the Canucks going .500 on a tough road trip despite battling some key injuries to key players?

what do “the metrics” say about our Power Play, Goals For, and how close we are to a playoff spot?

It’s December. Only the Kansas City Scouts would be far off from a playoff spot at this point.

 

[Horse McHindu]

It’s December. Only the Kansas City Scouts would be far off from a playoff spot at this point.

So we can agree that citing that the Canucks have the 20th or 21st (or whatever it is) points percentage is an insignificant stat right now? Awesome. I couldn’t agree more.

 

[Horse McHindu]

This not true. The Canucks are the only team that lost value compared to 2014, every other team increased by margins ranging from several 10 millions to hundreds of millions. The LAKings, a team clearly trending downwards since 2014, increased their franchise value by 46.6% from $580m to $850m from 2014 to 2019.

That’s fine, but if you really believe that this decline is 100% attributed to Benning, then I don’t really know what to tell you.

From 2001-2013, the Canucks were pretty much perennial playoff contenders give or take 1-2 seasons. They won divisional titles, Presodents trophies, Western Conference Championships, and collected numerous hardware related to individual accomplishments.......and then June 15th 2011 happened. And then the team started its natural decline. Given all that happened, you don’t think it’s natural for a fanbase (and especially a Vancouverite fanbase which, if we’re being honest, has perhaps more bandwagon fans than any other city in Canada) to be a little jaded after everything that happened?

 

[Hit the post]

So we can agree that citing that the Canucks have the 20th or 21st (or whatever it is) points percentage is an insignificant stat right now? Awesome. I couldn’t agree more.

Torts had the Canucks actually in a playoff spot vs “close” as late as the end of February. And his was a disaster reign. Couldn’t even give away his jockstrap for free.

So yes, it requires another level of stupid to manage a club far out of a playoff spot at this point in the calendar (when you have the green light from the owner to spend money).

 

[racerjoe]

That’s fine, but if you really believe that this decline is 100% attributed to Benning, then I don’t really know what to tell you.

From 2001-2013, the Canucks were pretty much perennial playoff contenders give or take 1-2 seasons. They won divisional titles, Presodents trophies, Western Conference Championships, and collected numerous hardware related to individual accomplishments.......and then June 15th 2011 happened. And then the team started its natural decline. Given all that happened, you don’t think it’s natural for a fanbase (and especially a Vancouverite fanbase which, if we’re being honest, has perhaps more bandwagon fans than any other city in Canada) to be a little jaded after everything that happened?

Yet the Oilers who have been terrible for how many years saw their value go up...

 

[F A N]

Handing out cap crippling contracts to medicore players like Sutter, Beagle, Ferland, Eriksson and Myers should be grounds for an immediate firing. What is that now? 24 mil in dead cap space?

I think you need to look up the definition of dead cap space.

 

[4Twenty]

Points % is insignificant? Why.

Why would someone complain about referencing their points% a post after citing a .500 road trip as good, or being close to a playoff spot. Those are just generic things. They're close to a playoff spot, yes, they're also 21st in the entire league. Why the percentage is insignificant but being "close" is, I'll never understand.

Also, .500 is bad. If you went .500 over a full season, you finish 1 point ahead of where Gillis' last group finished and that got him fired (Benning has failed to reach this mark 4 of 5 seasons so far).

Also, why is their PP strength considered significant, but their 5 on 5 offense being mediocre considered insignificant?

 

[Horse McHindu]

Yet the Oilers who have been terrible for how many years saw their value go up...

different market and different cities.

Vancouverites, for whatever reason, have always had a bandwagon mindset. They (we) typically don’t stick with our teams through thick and thin. Evidence? BC Lions. Canucks fans during the Messier era. On top of this, Vancouver has excellent nightlife options (although Toronto does as well and yet their hockey fans typically stay loyal to the Leafs through thick and thin).

In Edmonton and Calgary, there isn’t much to do during the cold long winters other than milking bulls and chasing farm animals around with snowmobiles. Hence - teams in Alberta have typically been far more loyal towards their teams than their British Columbian counterparts. This has been reflective in the CFL as well.

 

[racerjoe]

different market and different cities.

Vancouverites, for whatever reason, have always had a bandwagon mindset. They (we) typically don’t stick with our teams through thick and thin. Evidence? BC Lions. Canucks fans during the Messier era. On top of this, Vancouver has excellent nightlife options (although Toronto does as well and yet their hockey fans typically stay loyal to the Leafs through thick and thin).

In Edmonton and Calgary, there isn’t much to do during the cold long winters other than milking bulls and chasing farm animals around with snowmobiles. Hence - teams in Alberta have typically been far more loyal towards their teams than their British Columbian counterparts. This has been reflective in the CFL as well.

Oh so it is a Vancouver thing only... well if that isn't convenient...

 

[Horse McHindu]

Points % is insignificant? Why.

Your boi told me earlier in this thread that, “only the Kansas City Scouts would be far off from a playoff spot right now.

So which is it? We should be worried that the Canucks are 21st overall in points percentage, or that the fact that we’re so close to a playoff spot is completely irrelevant because it’s “only December.”

 

[Horse McHindu]

Oh so it is a Vancouver thing only... well if that isn't convenient...

There are other markets in North America that have highly fickle fanbases. I think LA would fall under that category but I’m not entirely sure. There are plenty of examples though.

 

[Peter10]

That’s fine, but if you really believe that this decline is 100% attributed to Benning, then I don’t really know what to tell you.

From 2001-2013, the Canucks were pretty much perennial playoff contenders give or take 1-2 seasons. They won divisional titles, Presodents trophies, Western Conference Championships, and collected numerous hardware related to individual accomplishments.......and then June 15th 2011 happened. And then the team started its natural decline. Given all that happened, you don’t think it’s natural for a fanbase (and especially a Vancouverite fanbase which, if we’re being honest, has perhaps more bandwagon fans than any other city in Canada) to be a little jaded after everything that happened?

Not saying it's all on Benning but he has been the GM over that time so there is clearly a connection. And it can't be washed away by claiming Vancouver has bandwagon fans and what not, they lost 7.5% value while EVERY OTHER TEAM increased their value, some by almost 50%. Something is going seriously wrong and it can't be denied.

 

[4Twenty]

Torts had the Canucks actually in a playoff spot vs “close” as late as the end of February. And his was a disaster reign. Couldn’t even give away his jockstrap for free.

So yes, it requires another level of stupid to manage a club far out of a playoff spot at this point in the calendar (when you have the green light from the owner to spend money).

Torts' team was top 10 in the entire NHL on New Years Day the year he coached here.

 

[Bonham]

I think you need to look up the definition of dead cap space.

Semantics.

It's 24 million dollars of wasted cap space and anchor contracts that have handcuffed the team.

Call it whatever you want to call it.

 

[4Twenty]

Your boi told me earlier in this thread that, “only the Kansas City Scouts would be far off from a playoff spot right now.

So which is it? We should be worried that the Canucks are 21st overall in points percentage, or that the fact that we’re so close to a playoff spot is completely irrelevant because it’s “only December.”

Why would he be one or the other?

It's the same thing. You're saying "they are close to the playoffs" - yes they are, almost every team is. I'm also saying they're close to the playoffs, but their points%, you know, the actual measure of the results they get from playing hockey games ranks them 21st.

What's your issue? It's no different than saying "they're on pace for ~90 points as it stands, but 90 points may not get you into the playoffs, but it's close".

I don't even really understand your complaint, other than the measures of what occurs on the ice isn't flattering to the Canucks, but those are just the recordings of what has occurred.

 

[Horse McHindu]

Not saying it's all on Benning but he has been the GM over that time so there is clearly a connection. And it can't be washed away by claiming Vancouver has bandwagon fans and what not, they lost 7.5% value while EVERY OTHER TEAM increased their value, some by almost 50%. Something is going seriously wrong and it can't be denied.

From 2008-2012 when the US economy under Obama’s watch was the drizzling shits, was that mostly Obama’s fault, or did a large part of it have to do with the mess that the previous regime left?

 

[Peter10]

From 2008-2012 when the US economy under Obama’s watch was the drizzling ****s, was that mostly Obama’s fault, or did a large part of it have to do with the mess that the previous regime left?

Most other countries economies struggled mightily during that time. It was a world wide crisis. How is that even a comparison when all other teams in the NHL saw their value go up?

 

[MS]

From 2008-2012 when the US economy under Obama’s watch was the drizzling ****s, was that mostly Obama’s fault, or did a large part of it have to do with the mess that the previous regime left?

If you believe the mess that Gillis left was so bad that it tanked the franchise value that badly, you should be calling for the scalp of the GM who spent the next 3 years incompetently trying to make that team competitive again.

 

[Hit the post]

If you believe the mess that Gillis left was so bad that it tanked the franchise value that badly, you should be calling for the scalp of the GM who spent the next 3 years incompetently trying to make that team competitive again.

If Gillis didn't leave such a bloody mess, there'd would be no way we'd be able to draft either Petterson or Hughes.

 

[Horse McHindu]

Why would he be one or the other?

It's the same thing. You're saying "they are close to the playoffs" - yes they are, almost every team is. I'm also saying they're close to the playoffs, but their points%, you know, the actual measure of the results they get from playing hockey games ranks them 21st.

What's your issue? It's no different than saying "they're on pace for ~90 points as it stands, but 90 points may not get you into the playoffs, but it's close".

I don't even really understand your complaint, other than the measures of what occurs on the ice isn't flattering to the Canucks, but those are just the recordings of what has occurred.

I have no issue with your post. All I’m asking for is consistency (not with you specifically, but for all of the anti-Benning crowd).

When the stats favor the Canucks (ie really close to a playoff spot, top notch PP, high GF), we can’t say stuff like, “oh it’s too early, and even the Kansas Scouts would look impressive right now,” but then act like the sky is falling and have a holier than thou “I told you so” mindset after the Canucks have a tough November and/or have the 21st ranked points percentage.

We either all agree that, “it’s way too early,” or we give criticism AND praise towards the Canucks where it’s due (and based on this season, there’s plenty of both that can go around) and not just pick and choose due to a hatred of Benning.

I thought the Analytics guys were supposed to logical and rational ones?

Again - this isn’t aimed at you specifically. Just my general frustration at the anti-Benning guys (who I like as people on here but who’s hockey opinions can drive me nuts at times).

 

[racerjoe]

There are other markets in North America that have highly fickle fanbases. I think LA would fall under that category but I’m not entirely sure. There are plenty of examples though.

Yet every other franchise including LA went up...

 

[4Twenty]

@Hindustan Smyl

Can you please show me where I've been inconsistent? You're not railing against inconsistent applications from what I can tell, you don't like when the numbers tell you what you don't want to hear.

"really close to a playoff spot" is a really trivial "stat". It doesn't say anything, it's not a stat. I don't think there is a person on this forum or in this fanbase who has said "it's too early to tell if this PP is good", everyone agrees it's good. It's so good, it's buoying a team that is falling apart at 5 on 5. So you yourself, be consistent, if you want to mention the PP or goals for, shouldn't you also be required to post about their poor 5 on 5 play, you know, to be consistent?

It's not about too early, nobody has even said it's too early....mentioning that all the teams are still in it, doesn't mean it's too early, it means being "close" doesn't really tell you anything, that's why you look at where "close" actually gets you vs point%. It's close, but not that great. Comprende?

This has nothing to do with analytics or consistency, it has to do with you wanting to plug your ears when the data doesn't tell you what you want it to.

You're best to stop addressing what you view as Anti-Benning, and instead address content.

 

[F A N]

Semantics.

It's 24 million dollars of wasted cap space and anchor contracts that have handcuffed the team.

Call it whatever you want to call it.

Semantics is just a weak argument for not using an established term properly. I will make the same suggestion to you. Read up on the definition of dead cap space.

Tyler Myers is second among Canucks Dmen in ice time. He logged over 20 minutes in his last 5 games. Any way you slice it he's being utilized as one of the team's top 4 Dmen. So the cap room used on a player logging over 20 minutes a game is considered dead cap space?

 

[Horse McHindu]

If you believe the mess that Gillis left was so bad that it tanked the franchise value that badly, you should be calling for the scalp of the GM who spent the next 3 years incompetently trying to make that team competitive again.

What do you mean by “being competitive?”

Do you honestly believe that between 2015 and 2018, Benning and the Acqua’s literally saw the Canucks as having a chance to win the cup? Really?

There’s a huge world’s difference between

1) Bringing in vets as a “missing piece” (or pieces) to make a run for the cup

and

2) bringing in vets to create a culture for the kids within the system, and to ensure that the current kids in the system aren’t being placed into roles that they are too green for.

In fact - ever since Benning took over in 2014-2015, the only young guy that *might* have been (or is currently) being held back is Adam Gaudette......and again, that’s not even really true.

1) Every single other young guy played in roles that they were suited for under Benning’s watch.
2) When a young guy flat out earned a spot, vets were moved to create a spot for said young guy.
3) Although the Canucks will be facing some cap challenges after this season, the Canucks haven’t had any cap issues or hindrances whatsoever thus far (although again - I want to see what this management does in the offseason).

For an organization that has supposedly “bled assets,” I see a strong and thriving Utica team, along with Pettersson, Boeser, Hughes, Virtanen, Gaudette, and Demko all in a Canucks uniform. Tryamkin looks like he’s likely to return, and the Judd Bracket fans on here have been signing the praises of Hoglander to no end. I also John Madden’s kid looking pretty damned good as well.

Tyler Motte (whom most people on here were LIVID when we traded Vanek for him) has also looked good on the 4th line this year.

To make a long story short, I never have and never will understand what all the kicking and screaming is about. All teams go through rebuilds. Successful rebuilds often take 5-7 years regardless of what the EA sports generation says.

Most people on here sung the praises of “Shanaplan” and not only have they NOT won a single playoff series since 2002, but Dubas has created terrible cap problems for that team.

so again - I ask - and I’ve been asking this for 5 years and running.

Why all the kicking and screaming?

Elias Pettersson (franchise C) and Quinn Hughes (likely to be a franchise D) say hi.