Management Threads | Structure. Standards. Habits.

Status
Not open for further replies.

andora

Registered User
Apr 23, 2002
24,337
7,408
Victoria
Think about what you are saying.

You are using the fact that they failed to convice EP to extend as a defence for the team building path they've chosen.
I wasnt necessarily taking a position, more so probing asking that poster for more detail. But even if i was taking a position, i am not sure what is wrong - especially when there is no conclusion yet (sign or different team) - these issues being discussed arent really finite and able to be concluded as right or wrong until certain results are complete. Like this seasons results, which leads to petterssons decision, which leads to the following seasons results.

I think regardless of what angle people are approaching this i believe evwryone has shown agreement that for this path to be beneficial the execution must be stellar - again yet to be seen.

But even if i was in that chair i would i am sure be taking the same path, but i also would have sat my main guys down and asked them what they thought and wanted - willing to hold on or you feel we can push now.

I honestly believe it is a 50/50 with pettersson right now, wanting to see what kind of team this is and banking on another year to secure a bit more money on the deal. On paper black and white he is about 10.5 to 10.75 versus comparables but if he has another season like he just did that can put him 11.5 to 12.5.. all of course my conjecture
 

rypper

21-12-05 it's finally over.
Dec 22, 2006
16,707
20,886
I don't think it's really some kind of "gotcha" that Pettersson didn't immediately sign the first day he was able to, despite the team pursuing a path that would allegedly/hopefully encourage that.

The past 1.5 seasons have been a bit of a mess and more about cleanup. This is the first season they're actually starting the year in the position they want to be in across the board (coach, roster for the most part. ) they've improved the roster, turned over the defense etc.

If he doesn't sign at some point later this year or in the off season, then you can have your gotcha moment.
 

PuckMunchkin

Very Nice, Very Evil!
Dec 13, 2006
12,563
10,292
Lapland
I wasnt necessarily taking a position, more so probing asking that poster for more detail. But even if i was taking a position, i am not sure what is wrong - especially when there is no conclusion yet (sign or different team) - these issues being discussed arent really finite and able to be concluded as right or wrong until certain results are complete. Like this seasons results, which leads to petterssons decision, which leads to the following seasons results.

Ok. Then I misunderstood your point.

I thought you were implying that "Look EP didnt sign with the short term moves the management has accomplished. This means we need more short term moves to get him signed."
I think regardless of what angle people are approaching this i believe evwryone has shown agreement that for this path to be beneficial the execution must be stellar - again yet to be seen.

But even if i was in that chair i would i am sure be taking the same path, but i also would have sat my main guys down and asked them what they thought and wanted - willing to hold on or you feel we can push now.

I honestly believe it is a 50/50 with pettersson right now, wanting to see what kind of team this is and banking on another year to secure a bit more money on the deal. On paper black and white he is about 10.5 to 10.75 versus comparables but if he has another season like he just did that can put him 11.5 to 12.5.. all of course my conjecture
I dont think it is about money.

If he is willing to sign long term they need to just pony up the cash. If they are not doing that right now, they should no longer be employed.
 

andora

Registered User
Apr 23, 2002
24,337
7,408
Victoria
I dont think it is about money.

If he is willing to sign long term they need to just pony up the cash. If they are not doing that right now, they should no longer be employed.

I think it cpuld be but in a vain sense.. i mean they could have easily offered something that comparables point to.. like the 10.5 ish lets say.. and they could have made a mutual decision that he produces again the number goes up
 

rypper

21-12-05 it's finally over.
Dec 22, 2006
16,707
20,886
I dont think it is about money.

If he is willing to sign long term they need to just pony up the cash. If they are not doing that right now, they should no longer be employed.

Seravalli is pretty keyed in, and basically said it was the money that was holding things up. Pettersson wants to be paid like x, canucks offered him y. He's going to prove his worth x this season.
 
  • Like
Reactions: racerjoe

PuckMunchkin

Very Nice, Very Evil!
Dec 13, 2006
12,563
10,292
Lapland
Seravalli is pretty keyed in, and basically said it was the money that was holding things up. Pettersson wants to be paid like x, canucks offered him y. He's going to prove his worth x this season.
I don't know what to say if that is true.
 

petterdaddy

Registered User
Sponsor
Jul 1, 2023
1,143
2,371
Vancouver
Seravalli is pretty keyed in, and basically said it was the money that was holding things up. Pettersson wants to be paid like x, canucks offered him y. He's going to prove his worth x this season.
Seravalli is legit but idk if I buy this. Theres been very few leaks out of the front office recently, I don’t think that someone would leak this of all things. I doubt Pettersson’s camp would either, it just doesn’t really track with his behaviour up until now. Fredo is a dumbass but even he knows that Petey is the face of this franchise and should be paid accordingly. I definitely buy that he’s not interested in a long term deal until the team proves they can actually play NHL hockey before December.
 

racerjoe

Registered User
Jun 3, 2012
12,257
5,982
Vancouver
Seravalli is legit but idk if I buy this. Theres been very few leaks out of the front office recently, I don’t think that someone would leak this of all things. I doubt Pettersson’s camp would either, it just doesn’t really track with his behaviour up until now. Fredo is a dumbass but even he knows that Petey is the face of this franchise and should be paid accordingly. I definitely buy that he’s not interested in a long term deal until the team proves they can actually play NHL hockey before December.

I think it definitely tracks as something an agent would leak. Player wants to sign, if only management would offer “fair” deal.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Paulinbc

tyhee

Registered User
Feb 5, 2015
2,583
2,690
I think the need to use LTIR combined with a lack of waiver exempt players means that the Canucks will have a waiver wire problem at the end of training camp this year.

Most will be familiar, but at the end of training camp the normal rule is that a team must be cap compliant before putting a player on LTIR. They then get to exceed the cap by the amount by the cap hit of the player put on LTIR MINUS any amount that the team was under the cap before putting the player on LTIR.

Usually if a team is going to put a player on LTIR at the end of training camp they have some entry level players who they can paper down to the AHL to get down to the cap, then put a player on injured reserve with long term relief and recall the player(s) and do whatever juggling they want to do to get the roster they actually want on opening night.

The Canucks have almost few players who figure to make the opening night roster who will be waiver exempt. They also will want Podkolzin on the opening day roster so that after sending him down they can recall him without taking the full amount of his potential bonuses into account.

The cap is $83,500,000. The Canucks want to get down to 23 or fewer players and be at the cap or as close as they can to the cap while being under it on the first day of the season. Then they can put Poolman on LTIR and do their shuffling to the roster they really want.

Let's look at some players the Canucks may not want to lose, plus Poolman before he goes on LTIR:

Forwards: (12) Miller 8,000,000; Pettersson 7,350,000; Boeser 6,650,000; Kuzmenko 5,500,000; Garland 4,950,000; Mikheyev 4,750,000; Beauvilier 4,150,000; Blueger 1,900,000; Suter 1,600,000; Hoglander 1,100,000; Podkolzin 925,000; di Giuseppe 775,000 Total Forwards $47,650,000

Defence: (6) Hughes 7,850,000; Myers 6,000,000; Hronek 4,400,000; Soucy 3,250,000; Cole 3,000,000; Poolman (before LTIR) 2,500,000 Total Defence $27,000,000

Goalies (2) Demko 5,000,000; DeSmith 1,800,000 Total Goalies $6,800,000

Deferred bonuses from 2022-2023: $850,000
`really wants to start the season with. If he is not papered down then some additional player would need to be exposed to waivers (unless he simply replaces Podkolzin, which in view of the difference in their potential bonuses makes no sense to me.)

I am of the view that the Canucks won't want to lose any of those players this year except Poolman, who they're stuck with. I'll discuss changing the players they keep below.

That leaves the team about $1 million below the cap, so able to add one player but not two to these 20 players. It also leaves each of Wolanin, Brisebois, Studnicka and Joshua having to clear waivers and they only have room to keep one as an additional player on the roster to keep him from waivers. In this scenario they'd have to risk losing three of Wonanin, Brisebois, Studnicka and Joshua.

They could leave Podkolzin where he is presently assigned, to the AHL. That would allow them to avoid waiving one of the other players so they'd only have to risk losing two, but it would also leave them further from the cap before putting Poolman on LTIR so they'd be playing the season on a reduced salary cap and the way performance bonuses and LTIR interact (poorly) it would probably mean Podkolzin has to spend the season in the minors. That may or may not be best for his development but it certainly wouldn't be good for his mood and could lessen the likelihood he'll stay in North America instead of bolting for Europe next summer.

They could make changes to the low cost players they protect but any combination of players that I can come up leaves them waiving some players that I think the Canucks want to keep in the NHL this season.

One other possibility is to waive Tyler Myers. If he was claimed the Canucks would have lots of flexibility and wouldn't need LTIR. They would want to replace him-they are weak enough at RD with Myers and the position would be a huge hole if they lost him on waivers. There is a reasonable chance that he'd be claimed. Few teams have the cap space but among those that do and don't expect to exceed the cap this season the prospect of Myers for a salary of $1 million may be appealing.

If not claimed the Canucks would gain essentially nothing and have a very unhappy player (and maybe unhappy player's teammates.) The Canucks would probably keep him rather than gain the small amount of cap space they could hide by sending him to Abbotsford.

They could try waiving Boeser instead of Myers and if they lost him there would be weakness at RW but not as huge a hole as at RW if they lost Myers. The chances of Boeser being claimed are smaller-he may be more useful but there isn't a bonus already paid to reduce the claiming team's cash outlay, his pay and cap hit are higher than Myers' is and there is an additional year on his deal.

Of course, there is also the possibility of another trade, which probably Allvin will be looking for. If there is no trade, though, it is clear the Canucks will be exposing to waivers some members of the roster they want to keep. If any of those players are claimed the Canucks will have one or more holes to fill.

If they are going to risk losing players that would make their roster to waivers the question becomes when they do it. There are two things to consider here:

1. The best time to avoid losing the players;
2. The best time to replace the players if they are claimed on waivers.

The second of those considerations would suggest exposing whoever they will need to expose early to maximize their chances of finding players then placed on waivers by other teams. The first consideration probably would suggest waiting until the last day. It is a close decision whether to expose someone at the last minute to try to keep them or to do it earlier and then try to replace as necessary.

Most will probably be in favour of waiting until the last minute. Personally I'd go the other route and do it early enough to have a good chance of replacing whomever is lost, but it is an interesting gamble either way.
 

F A N

Registered User
Aug 12, 2005
18,795
5,991
That leaves the team about $1 million below the cap, so able to add one player but not two to these 20 players. It also leaves each of Wolanin, Brisebois, Studnicka and Joshua having to clear waivers and they only have room to keep one as an additional player on the roster to keep him from waivers. In this scenario they'd have to risk losing three of Wonanin, Brisebois, Studnicka and Joshua.

If the Canucks carry 7 Dmen they will keep two of McWard, Wolanin, or Brisebois. McWard can be papered down.

Up front, do they need to waive anybody at this point? They could paper Aman.

Your post makes it seem like the Canucks are in trouble and need to make some drastic moves but is it really the case in your opinion given how the roster is shaping up right now?
 

andora

Registered User
Apr 23, 2002
24,337
7,408
Victoria
If the Canucks carry 7 Dmen they will keep two of McWard, Wolanin, or Brisebois. McWard can be papered down.

Up front, do they need to waive anybody at this point? They could paper Aman.

Your post makes it seem like the Canucks are in trouble and need to make some drastic moves but is it really the case in your opinion given how the roster is shaping up right now?
Juulsen waived
aman mcward papered
One of brisebois or wolanin risked.. which is a risk worth taking
 

PuckMunchkin

Very Nice, Very Evil!
Dec 13, 2006
12,563
10,292
Lapland

pitseleh

Registered User
Jul 30, 2005
19,179
2,704
Vancouver
Discussing this here because not sure it belongs in the Lafferty thread.

The thing about the Lafferty trade is that in isolation it doesn't matter. Lafferty isn't going to move the needle for the Canucks and will probably walk as a UFA end of season, and the 5th is probably not going to become anything of significance. You can justify any trade of this magnitude on the same grounds.

Even if you look at current management's trades collectively, all of the non-Hronek futures they've given up might amount to one good player on average, while the replacement level / zero surplus value players they've acquired again haven't moved the needle for the team. Again, these things are probably not going to make a difference in the long run.

But collectively their moves are to me suggesting a lack of foresight and planning, tunnel vision on players (not to mention coaching/management personnel) they are familiar with, and a lack of appreciation for market dynamics. They're acquiring players at the deadline when they're out of the playoffs. They're signing FAs and pushing themselves up against the cap, only to have to move salary right before the season starts.

There have been six trades involving futures in September and October in 2022 and 2023, and the Canucks have been the ones giving up futures in five of them (the sixth being the Lundkvist trade, which was also different). If you go back further the list of teams doing these kinds of things are not the ones you want managing your team - the Senators, the Marc Bergevin Canadiens, the San Jose Sharks, etc. If it happened once or twice, maybe you could even explain it away, but this isn't some market inefficiency they are exploiting or them doing what every other team does.

Maybe the bigger picture is nothing too, but you get a higher volume of these types of transactions to get a sense of how management is operating than the bigger plays, and what we have seen is not inspiring, particularly given how big of a hole they have to dig out of because of Benning's incompetence.
 

Billy Kvcmu

Registered User
Dec 5, 2014
27,844
16,544
West Vancouver
Discussing this here because not sure it belongs in the Lafferty thread.

The thing about the Lafferty trade is that in isolation it doesn't matter. Lafferty isn't going to move the needle for the Canucks and will probably walk as a UFA end of season, and the 5th is probably not going to become anything of significance. You can justify any trade of this magnitude on the same grounds.

Even if you look at current management's trades collectively, all of the non-Hronek futures they've given up might amount to one good player on average, while the replacement level / zero surplus value players they've acquired again haven't moved the needle for the team. Again, these things are probably not going to make a difference in the long run.

But collectively their moves are to me suggesting a lack of foresight and planning, tunnel vision on players (not to mention coaching/management personnel) they are familiar with, and a lack of appreciation for market dynamics. They're acquiring players at the deadline when they're out of the playoffs. They're signing FAs and pushing themselves up against the cap, only to have to move salary right before the season starts.

There have been six trades involving futures in September and October in 2022 and 2023, and the Canucks have been the ones giving up futures in five of them (the sixth being the Lundkvist trade, which was also different). If you go back further the list of teams doing these kinds of things are not the ones you want managing your team - the Senators, the Marc Bergevin Canadiens, the San Jose Sharks, etc. If it happened once or twice, maybe you could even explain it away, but this isn't some market inefficiency they are exploiting or them doing what every other team does.

Maybe the bigger picture is nothing too, but you get a higher volume of these types of transactions to get a sense of how management is operating than the bigger plays, and what we have seen is not inspiring, particularly given how big of a hole they have to dig out of because of Benning's incompetence.
Vector made a post in the Lafferty thread
The net lost of all the picks they’ve moved is that they’ve lost one 2nd round pick so far ( price of moving out Dickinson)

It’s not all doom and gloom
 

Billy Kvcmu

Registered User
Dec 5, 2014
27,844
16,544
West Vancouver
I get why you are upset, you don’t like the way they operate the team.

But the reality is that no GM cares about losing a late round pick cause they likely don’t last long enough to see til the end of the pick.

Sure they could have use the 5th in a package to move out a contract that they don’t want. But they can also easily recoup a late round by…trading Lafferty in the TDL if the season doesn’t go well. And yes I believe they are capable of selling like they did least season
 
  • Like
Reactions: MarkMM

Vector

Moderator
Feb 2, 2007
24,238
39,272
Junktown
Vector made a post in the Lafferty thread
The net lost of all the picks they’ve moved is that they’ve lost one 2nd round pick so far ( price of moving out Dickinson)

It’s not all doom and gloom

I do agree with, @pitseleh's point however. This management group, in an attempt to make the playoffs, has pretty consistently prioritized adding players and has done so when the market is dictating that doing so is a higher-than-market-value cost.

The only thing that I disagree with is moving the needle comment in regards to adding the players. Hronek absolutely will have a large impact on the team. DeSmith should have an outsized impact considering what we got from the goaltending last season. I specifically like the Lafferty trade purely because the team has absolutely no defensive forward depth and if Blueger goes down, and he was sent home from practice, there's no one on the roster that can credibly replace him. Dermott never got a chance to make any sort of impact and now Bear is in a similar situation.
 

PuckMunchkin

Very Nice, Very Evil!
Dec 13, 2006
12,563
10,292
Lapland
I get why you are upset, you don’t like the way they operate the team.

Im upset because the discussion on these forums has become so bogged down in these two concepts...
But the reality is that no GM cares about losing a late round pick cause they likely don’t last long enough to see til the end of the pick.

Sure they could have use the 5th in a package to move out a contract that they don’t want. But they can also easily recoup a late round by…trading Lafferty in the TDL if the season doesn’t go well. And yes I believe they are capable of selling like they did least season
I dont mind the trade.

I just find that there are people who defend what ever the management does. You cannot at the same time believe:

- 5th round picks are worthless
- the player just traded for a 5th rounder is worth something
 
  • Like
Reactions: Javaman

arttk

Registered User
Feb 16, 2006
18,112
10,049
Los Angeles
Discussing this here because not sure it belongs in the Lafferty thread.

The thing about the Lafferty trade is that in isolation it doesn't matter. Lafferty isn't going to move the needle for the Canucks and will probably walk as a UFA end of season, and the 5th is probably not going to become anything of significance. You can justify any trade of this magnitude on the same grounds.

Even if you look at current management's trades collectively, all of the non-Hronek futures they've given up might amount to one good player on average, while the replacement level / zero surplus value players they've acquired again haven't moved the needle for the team. Again, these things are probably not going to make a difference in the long run.

But collectively their moves are to me suggesting a lack of foresight and planning, tunnel vision on players (not to mention coaching/management personnel) they are familiar with, and a lack of appreciation for market dynamics. They're acquiring players at the deadline when they're out of the playoffs. They're signing FAs and pushing themselves up against the cap, only to have to move salary right before the season starts.

There have been six trades involving futures in September and October in 2022 and 2023, and the Canucks have been the ones giving up futures in five of them (the sixth being the Lundkvist trade, which was also different). If you go back further the list of teams doing these kinds of things are not the ones you want managing your team - the Senators, the Marc Bergevin Canadiens, the San Jose Sharks, etc. If it happened once or twice, maybe you could even explain it away, but this isn't some market inefficiency they are exploiting or them doing what every other team does.

Maybe the bigger picture is nothing too, but you get a higher volume of these types of transactions to get a sense of how management is operating than the bigger plays, and what we have seen is not inspiring, particularly given how big of a hole they have to dig out of because of Benning's incompetence.
It’s weird to proclaim all those moves won’t move the needle considering the season hasn’t started yet.
If all their pk guys improve the pk from historic bad to like 85%+ then it’s hard to say it didn’t move the needle. Having special team coming out positive majority of the games is pretty f***ing important.
 
  • Like
Reactions: MarkusNaslund19

Billy Kvcmu

Registered User
Dec 5, 2014
27,844
16,544
West Vancouver
I do agree with, @pitseleh's point however. This management group, in an attempt to make the playoffs, has pretty consistently prioritized adding players and has done so when the market is dictating that doing so is a higher-than-market-value cost.

The only thing that I disagree with is moving the needle comment in regards to adding the players. Hronek absolutely will have a large impact on the team. DeSmith should have an outsized impact considering what we got from the goaltending last season. I specifically like the Lafferty trade purely because the team has absolutely no defensive forward depth and if Blueger goes down, and he was sent home from practice, there's no one on the roster that can credibly replace him. Dermott never got a chance to make any sort of impact and now Bear is in a similar situation.
DeSmith is an underrated add

Martin was unplayable last season and Demko was mostly injured

We weren’t good defensively but we also didn’t have good goaltending for a big chunk of the season

Im upset because the discussion on these forums has become so bogged down in these two concepts...

I dont mind the trade.

I just find that there are people who defend what ever the management does. You cannot at the same time believe:

- 5th round picks are worthless
- the player just traded for a 5th rounder is worth something
I don’t believe 5th round pick is worthless, I believe that 5th round pick is worthless for most GMs in the league because they don’t have much job security.

Lafferty is clearly worth something otherwise he would not have had multiple trade offers made for him according to James Mirtle
 

pitseleh

Registered User
Jul 30, 2005
19,179
2,704
Vancouver
It’s weird to proclaim all those moves won’t move the needle considering the season hasn’t started yet.
If all their pk guys improve the pk from historic bad to like 85%+ then it’s hard to say it didn’t move the needle. Having special team coming out positive majority of the games is pretty f***ing important.

That’s largely going to be a function of Cole, Soucy, Hronek, Blueger, etc.

The difference between Sam Lafferty and Jack Studnicka (or Jack Studnicka and say Phil DiGiuseppe last year) certainly isn’t. If it did then good PK forwards would be the biggest market inefficiency in the NHL.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Ad

Upcoming events

Ad

Ad