Management Thread II - Read OP

[Josepho]

I honestly don't know Benning has felt about the direction of the team since he strikes me as someone who's very obedient and easily dummied-around by those above him.

 

[Askel]

The lack of vision is the biggest problem of this management grupp. They are never ahead always reacting, they copy other teams instead of looking at their oen streghts. Noone knows if they are rebuilding or competing.

That and the stupid agegap strategy.

 

[MS]

The lack of vision is the biggest problem of this management grupp. They are never ahead always reacting, they copy other teams instead of looking at their oen streghts. Noone knows if they are rebuilding or competing.

That and the stupid agegap strategy.

1) no plan
2) no ability to evaluate talent
3) no ability to manage a salary cap

... are the three horsemen of the Benning Apocalypse.

 

[PetterssonSimp]

What way is a GM suppose to build his team? Some one else's way?

Well there’s the right way, and then there’s basically what Dim Jim has been doing

 

[PetterssonSimp]

How sheltered were his minutes last year though? Myers averaged 17 mins a game and played the second most ice time at EV for the Jets. He split time evenly among the forward lines and had a fairly balanced 54% o-zone starts. He played a good amount of special teams but most (2nd in D TOI) was on the PK. He didn't get much PP time because Winnipeg runs a 4F-1D set and they had two better RHD ahead of him in the depth chart.

For the record I don't think he's an all situation guy. I believe people when they say he's an adventure in his own end. I just wonder if he's Sopel/Beiksa level bad where he's decent most of the time but makes egregious arm-waving bad plays every handful of games. The people saying he's a marginal upgrade on Gudbranson are probably out to lunch too. Your comparison of an offensive Hutton (aka the Hutton most people though he would be) is a good one. I'm not entirely convinced he's meaningfully worse than Hutton in his own zone though. Can you post that comparison?

I don’t know how many times I literally have to suggest Pete Tessier as a follow on Twitter. But I will again. The guy did a legit post showing the two side by side. It’s quite telling

 

[PetterssonSimp]

How sheltered were his minutes last year though? Myers averaged 17 mins a game and played the second most ice time at EV for the Jets. He split time evenly among the forward lines and had a fairly balanced 54% o-zone starts. He played a good amount of special teams but most (2nd in D TOI) was on the PK. He didn't get much PP time because Winnipeg runs a 4F-1D set and they had two better RHD ahead of him in the depth chart.

For the record I don't think he's an all situation guy. I believe people when they say he's an adventure in his own end. I just wonder if he's Sopel/Beiksa level bad where he's decent most of the time but makes egregious arm-waving bad plays every handful of games. The people saying he's a marginal upgrade on Gudbranson are probably out to lunch too. Your comparison of an offensive Hutton (aka the Hutton most people though he would be) is a good one. I'm not entirely convinced he's meaningfully worse than Hutton in his own zone though. Can you post that comparison?

 

[Bleach Clean]

Well of course not much changed. They forced the guy out that was advocating for change and kept the idiots who wanted to continue down the same path. Linden came to the realization way, way, way too late but at least he had the epiphany. I wasn't a fan of Linden in this role at all. He was in over his head. But I'm also positive that if he had manage to sell his direction to ownership the team would be in a much better management position today.

I think this bit from the article succinctly sums it all up: "The message has become clear, championships are lovely, but playing a few extra games in the playoffs ever year is better."

It's all about the maximization of yearly profits for ownership. Nothing more.

Funny thing is, and I know I mentioned this before when Linden and Benning were clearly failing, if you had some competent thinkers you could use that focus to argue for a rebuild. Own that the revenues would drop but that you'd compensate for that drop through cutting salary...give yourself an internal cap. Put a plan in place that as the team was built and improved you'd start to trickle that money back in. You'd be doing things the right way and protecting ownerships desire for cash flow.

The narratives being built up around the Linden departure are intriguing. On the one hand, you have posters making fallacious arguments about Linden wanting to keep the team running under the Sedin window, alone, while Benning may not have wanted to. A great way to absolve Benning of all blame during that time span, even though he was right there making pro-scouting errors... On the other hand, both the Linden side and the Benning side have claimed, via rumour or statement, that the long-term plan was going to be served. Who to believe?

I think this comes down to timing. My read on this is that Linden wanted to extend the window of accruing high end prospects while Benning was ok with the timeline as it was initially mapped. That initial timeline included playoff contention in the near future. And so to me, that's how both sides can claim to be adhering to the plan. Meanwhile, only one is foolish enough to still believe it.

Now, this does not absolve Linden. Not one bit. He deserved to be fired. But Benning absolutely should have gone alone with him.

Yep. Anyone with dissenting (read: rational/intelligent) opinions get the boot.

Benning wants to build his team his way: a mediocre, capped-out, shallow-prospect pool, maybe-scrape-into-the-playoffs contender.

Benning's way is likely to get him fired in the near future, so I'm fine with his construct ensuring his walking papers.

 

[TruGr1t]

I've yet to see anything that convinces me Hutton is not materially better defensively than Myers. That's obviously a three-year chart, but Hutton played more minutes against tougher competition than Myers did last year. Any positive difference Myers makes to the Canucks will be on the offensive side of the puck.

 

[ginner classic]

OK ladies and germs......let 'er rip:

Have your say: Surveying fan confidence in each NHL team's...

This is important.

 

[Javaman]

OK ladies and germs......let 'er rip:

Have your say: Surveying fan confidence in each NHL team's...

This is important.

Done. Only used 2 numbers on my keypad.

 

[Pastor Of Muppetz]

Not sure i can fully agree with this. Obviously the management needs to have the same vision / long term plan but if you just have one guy leading the way who doesnt want "too many voices in the room" this will also lead to bad decisions. You need to have different opinions going into the decision making to limit the risk of overlooking potential problems.

Double edged sword there...When you have too many decision makers, you could wind up with the polarized (consensus) decision...Thats not always the correct one IMO...especially in making a bold move.

 

[PetterssonSimp]

I've yet to see anything that convinces me Hutton is not materially better defensively than Myers. That's obviously a three-year chart, but Hutton played more minutes against tougher competition than Myers did last year. Any positive difference Myers makes to the Canucks will be on the offensive side of the puck.

His positive impact is almost as good as the negative impact he has on defence. The truest form of high event player.
Myers is great at shot volume on offence, but that rarely leads to second let alone third opportunities on the puck as it’s usually high and wide or into the glove/chest.
Another misdiagnosed part of his game is transition, he’s not overly good at this part of the game. His go to play is high off the glass and out leading to possession change in the neutral zone. And similarly, he’s weak against players who play the down low game in his zone, as he’s more of a stick checker despite his massive frame. His positioning is poor and his reads are usually slow.
These are all things I’ve read from multiple sources who cover the Jets and from what I’ve seen from Myers watching the Jets.

I know people like to compare directly between guys who are being replaced in the lineup for. Like Guddy vs Myers, Hutton vs Benn. This should be reversed, as Hutton was usually asked to move the puck (he did so poorly) and play higher in the lineup and on the PP, whereas Guddy was asked to defend and play PK, which is Benn’s Areas. Which is why an apt description of Myers is Ben Hutton with offence but way less defensive ability. It’s also the main reason one guy got paid, the other is a free agent. The league pays for offensive contributions, but league wide.

 

[WonderTwinsUnite]

Double edged sword there...When you have too many decision makers, you wind up with the polarized (consensus) decision...Thats not always the correct one IMO...especially in making a bold move.

And if we had someone with a proven track record of making the correct move at the helm, I would be more inclined to agree.

Sadly, we have an idiot surrounded by yes-men running the show.

 

[Pastor Of Muppetz]

And if you had someone with a proven track record of making the correct move at the helm, I would be more inclined to agree.

Sadly, we have an idiot surrounded by yes-men running the show.

Well, this year ..the team totally has Bennings stamp on it....and he's going to either sink or swim with this roster...The vibe in this town regarding the Canucks could be completely different in 2-3 months.

 

[Josepho]

OK ladies and germs......let 'er rip:

Have your say: Surveying fan confidence in each NHL team's...

This is important.

I hate going full try-hard in posts about hockey online, but here's what I sent, whilst obviously giving mostly 1's and 2's in the actual survey. It's pretty hard to summarize how garbage our management is under one breath, but I was able to voice out my main qualms with this one.

Jim Benning has absolutely no concept of asset management or salary cap structure. Additionally, he hasn't been able to acquire a single effective NHL defender through trade or UFA thus far.

Has traded approximately an entire draft's worth of picks (a 2nd, McCann, a 3rd, a 4th, a 5th, Forsling) for Andrey Pedan, Philip Larsen, Clendening, Gudbranson and Pouliot -- none of which are still with the organization and most of which are no longer even NHL regulars.

At the end of the 2019 season, $18M was invested in Ryan Spooner, Tim Schaller, Brandon Sutter, Loui Eriksson and Jay Beagle. All of which could be replaced by much cheaper free agents or young players within their own system.

I've listed 5 of the more successful NHL franchises in recent memory below, and how they've approached the cap situation.

Tampa Bay: $4.5M to pay for Killorn, a player who got 40 points last season (aka a top 6er who is forced to play a smaller role in a stacked lineup). The rest of the players are home-grown and on deals with an AAV of less than $1M. Their money is invested into their actual star players, something the Canucks soon have to do with Pettersson, Hughes and Boeser.
San Jose: $1.5 to pay Marcus Sorenson. The rest of the players are less than $1M.
St. Louis: $5M to pay Tyler Bozak, a player who scored at over a 0.5 P/G pace, another top 6 player forced to play down in a stacked lineup. Another $5.75M to pay Alex Steen, who is paid 2M or so too much, but still outproduces his role on the team significantly. The rest of their players are less than $1M.
Washington: Just over $6M to pay Hagelin and Eller, who have established themselves as some of the best 3rd liners in the league. The rest of their players are less than $1M.
Pittsburgh: $5.3M for Hornqvist, who's actually scoring at a 2nd line pace, and $4.1M for Bjugstad. The rest of their players are less than $1M.

It's very obvious how good franchises manage their cap -- and Benning has done the exact opposite.

This all ties in with multiple pieces of evidence indicating a lack of negotiation skills from Benning as well, a few are listed below.


Brad Treliving stating that Benning's offer was "by far" the best they got for Sven Baertschi.


Iain MacIntyre suggesting that Benning openly took Tampa's initial offer without attempting to negotiate any further.


Benning apparently asking what he'd need to add to McCann, who Florida themselves inquired about, to land Gudbranson.

Landing good prospects in the draft is one thing. The difference between teams like the Leafs rebuilding and teams like the Oilers rebuilding is that the Leafs have shown the ability to aggressively pursue the market and pounce on the right opportunities to insulate their elite young talent. Jim Benning has shown no ability to do such a thing, and the team is forever going to be weighed down by this lack of proper teambuilding.

I encourage any Canuck writers to be more critical of the Canucks management team -- it's very taxing watching most of our media let him off the hook for ruining my favourite hockey team.

Thanks for reading, whoever you are.

 

[PetterssonSimp]

I hate going full try-hard in posts about hockey online, but here's what I sent, whilst obviously giving mostly 1's and 2's in the actual survey. It's pretty hard to summarize how garbage our management is under one breath, but I was able to voice out my main qualms with this one.

Jim Benning has absolutely no concept of asset management or salary cap structure. Additionally, he hasn't been able to acquire a single effective NHL defender through trade or UFA thus far.

Has traded approximately an entire draft's worth of picks (a 2nd, McCann, a 3rd, a 4th, a 5th, Forsling) for Andrey Pedan, Philip Larsen, Clendening, Gudbranson and Pouliot -- none of which are still with the organization and most of which are no longer even NHL regulars.

At the end of the 2019 season, $18M was invested in Ryan Spooner, Tim Schaller, Brandon Sutter, Loui Eriksson and Jay Beagle. All of which could be replaced by much cheaper free agents or young players within their own system.

I've listed 5 of the more successful NHL franchises in recent memory below, and how they've approached the cap situation.

Tampa Bay: $4.5M to pay for Killorn, a player who got 40 points last season (aka a top 6er who is forced to play a smaller role in a stacked lineup). The rest of the players are home-grown and on deals with an AAV of less than $1M. Their money is invested into their actual star players, something the Canucks soon have to do with Pettersson, Hughes and Boeser.
San Jose: $1.5 to pay Marcus Sorenson. The rest of the players are less than $1M.
St. Louis: $5M to pay Tyler Bozak, a player who scored at over a 0.5 P/G pace, another top 6 player forced to play down in a stacked lineup. Another $5.75M to pay Alex Steen, who is paid 2M or so too much, but still outproduces his role on the team significantly. The rest of their players are less than $1M.
Washington: Just over $6M to pay Hagelin and Eller, who have established themselves as some of the best 3rd liners in the league. The rest of their players are less than $1M.
Pittsburgh: $5.3M for Hornqvist, who's actually scoring at a 2nd line pace, and $4.1M for Bjugstad. The rest of their players are less than $1M.

It's very obvious how good franchises manage their cap -- and Benning has done the exact opposite.

This all ties in with multiple pieces of evidence indicating a lack of negotiation skills from Benning as well, a few are listed below.


Brad Treliving stating that Benning's offer was "by far" the best they got for Sven Baertschi.


Iain MacIntyre suggesting that Benning openly took Tampa's initial offer without attempting to negotiate any further.


Benning apparently asking what he'd need to add to McCann, who Florida themselves inquired about, to land Gudbranson.

Landing good prospects in the draft is one thing. The difference between teams like the Leafs rebuilding and teams like the Oilers rebuilding is that the Leafs have shown the ability to aggressively pursue the market and pounce on the right opportunities to insulate their elite young talent. Jim Benning has shown no ability to do such a thing, and the team is forever going to be weighed down by this lack of proper teambuilding.

I encourage any Canuck writers to be more critical of the Canucks management team -- it's very taxing watching most of our media let him off the hook for ruining my favourite hockey team.

Thanks for reading, whoever you are.

All this measured success and people still hate on Jim?

 

[Foundational Player]

Done. Only used 2 numbers on my keypad.

Yes, number 1, number 1, number 1!

 

[F A N]

Additionally, he hasn't been able to acquire a single effective NHL defender through trade or UFA thus far.

Troy Stetcher is pretty effective.

 

[PetterssonSimp]

Troy Stetcher is pretty effective.

Not nearly to the point his tires are pumped around here. For a #5 defenceman, he gets major press and coverage. Hell, I’ve seen Sat on twitter suggest the Sam Girard contract is a good comparable for Troy from Richmond. It’s not.

 

[Josepho]

Troy Stetcher is pretty effective.

That was kind of a grey area to me... my point moreso being that every player he's seen and actively sought out at the NHL level has been a complete flop on our blueline.

 

[F A N]

Not nearly to the point his tires are pumped around here. For a #5 defenceman, he gets major press and coverage. Hell, I’ve seen Sat on twitter suggest the Sam Girard contract is a good comparable for Troy from Richmond. It’s not.

That was kind of a grey area to me... my point moreso being that every player he's seen and actively sought out at the NHL level has been a complete flop on our blueline.

I'm pretty high on Stecher. I would be happy to lock him up long term to be the team's 2nd pairing Dman. I think he's underrated by Green. If the Canucks want to try and keep Tanev healthy they can scale back Tanev's PK minutes and give it to Stetcher.

 

[The Drop]

I like Trevor Linden, but the first 3 years of Benning (and Lindens staunch desire to compete while the twins were still here)..have Linden written all over them.

Source?

 

[carrotshirt]

I prefer Benning

Oh, we’ve noticed.

 

[The Drop]

Its not like it has gotten any better since Linden left, so dont think he was the only driving force behind this. Most likely scenario is that both, Linden and Benning were on the same page until some point in 2018 - remember there were reports that Linden threatened to quit if Benning wasnt extended. Then probably by the end of the 17-18 season Linden realised that their approach had failed and a new direction was needed which ended up costing him the job.

That’s the most plausible scenario. Dismissing 3 years of Bennings work as Linden moves is just more of the same

 

[The Drop]

Oh come one. Benning had the SAME vision as Linden the entire time. The only time their visions differed was last year which ended up with Linden being forced out. Forced out because he changed his vision. Benning has never changed his. It's why a bottom team remains tight to the cap and handing out bad contracts to overrated players.

Also "too many cooks in the kitchen" doesn't lead to bad decisions. Having many competent cooks able to express an opinion allows you to come to the best well informed decisions.

Willes' Musings: The bad smell from Linden's departure still lingers

This is from a year ago. I found it from some guy I can’t stand on twitter so I went and searched for the article:

Linden’s divorce from the hockey club was not amicable. It was, in fact, the opposite of amicable and if you believe the howler the Canucks have tried to spin, you are either naive, gullible or some combination of both.
Linden, like others who’ve gone before him, ran afoul of the Aquilini ownership group. The team’s president, the man who was hired largely to rehabilitate the image of a broken franchise, told ownership the Canucks’ rebuild had to be slow and methodical. The Aquilinis — specifically Francesco, the team’s chairman — didn’t want to hear that.
As it happens, GM Jim Benning, who Linden had just helped earn a contract extension, took a position that was more in line with that of ownership, complete with the suggestion the Canucks should make an offer to John Tavares.
And just like that, Linden was gone. He didn’t step down. He didn’t resign. He was fired. And he felt he was betrayed by Benning and the Aquilinis