Management Thread: Ignorance is Bliss Edition.

[valkynax]

You understand, all that I'm claiming is that 1 is more than 0. On a scale of 10, Granlund provided us with a 2.5 at his absolute peak, and more like a 0.75 overall. Shinkaruk provided literally nothing to anybody in the NHL.

1 is more than 0.

People who believe that we were getting a 2nd for Shinkaruk are out to lunch.

Yes, we could have had a 2nd AND picked up Granlund for free but 'hurr durr Benning dumber than mee."

The team will have to raise its standards high, and keep them high, if they wish to have a legit chance at the cup.

Otherwise, there's really no point to try...anything, at all. I mean, we're not dead last in standings, as long as we're 2nd last or higher there's no problem.

 

[MarkusNaslund19]

Was Linden Vey for a 2nd a good trade because the 2nd we dealt ended up being nothing while Vey played over 100 games for us?

1 instead of 0?

No, obviously not. Because it's not hypothetical based on what some fans think he should have been worth.

If Benning turned down a 2nd and took Granlund instead, that would be dumb. But there is literally zero evidence that that is the case.

 

[likash]

He literally did boost Shink like Gillis did in the minors.

I hope people understand, I'm not a giant fan of Benning, I think we could have a better more forward thinking GM. I don't think he's the worst thing ever, and I love some of his picks and a couple of his trades.

What I am arguing against, is the spurious arguments that are used against him. There are enough valid ones, you don't have to make up more, or hold his victories (even if small in this case) against him.

But why? If he was a good or even an average GM, i would understand. On top of that he is also obsequious. A very bad combination for a GM with an owner who likes to interfere.

 

[CanuckleBerry]

This week away from the Canucks has actually been pretty eye opening for me. I really don't need this team right now. I have more rewarding and positive things to do with the little spare time that I have. I'm still a general hockey fan first more than anything, so I intend on tuning in to HNIC when I can. This franchise has serious systemic issues that need to be addressed. It's not about winning, it's about hope, planning and accountability. Until they've got all three, my leisure time is much better served by an extended break.

 

[Peter10]

No, obviously not. Because it's not hypothetical based on what some fans think he should have been worth.

If Benning turned down a 2nd and took Granlund instead, that would be dumb. But there is literally zero evidence that that is the case.

There are years of evidence however, that Granlund was no better than a waiver wire player hence even getting a low pick would have been better.

 

[Hit the post]

There is no dispute that this GM hasn't added picks (during x years of rebuilding) to a notable degree. His one strength (others might argue otherwise) that he neglects to strengthen his hand. If anything he's *DEALT* more significant picks than obtain additional ones.

 

[hookshott]

Players similar to Granlund regularly hit waivers or are UFA's. There was no reason at all to even trade for him.

For the bottom 200 players in the league there are another 200 out there of the same talent level. Timing is everything.

 

[Dab]

There are years of evidence however, that Granlund was no better than a waiver wire player hence even getting a low pick would have been better.

Benning paid to skip the waiver wire queue to get a bad player . I can’t believe people are justifying this.

 

[Jack Burton]

Shat turns into Granlund

Benning in his infinite wisdom believes Granlund needs to be protected from the ED so ships out Hansen who is arguably our best trade chip at that time to SJ for another failing prospect in Goldobin.

Granlund walks for nothing

Goldobin walks for nothing

That right there is Jim Benning management 101...bleed assets for 0 return and completely waste our time.

 

[vanuck]

Excellent stuff.

Disagree on calling Travis Green "talent", but that's nitpi . . . well, anyway, others have cornered the market on that. Clark would have been a better fit, unless they have extended him and I missed it?

Yeah, the part about Green was pretty much the only part I didn't agree with - I don't see him as anything more than an average coach, and even that might be overly generous. Clark AFAIK hasn't been extended but would've been a better one to name for sure.

 

[Peen]

No, obviously not. Because it's not hypothetical based on what some fans think he should have been worth.

If Benning turned down a 2nd and took Granlund instead, that would be dumb. But there is literally zero evidence that that is the case.

The point is that anything other than a guy who would have ended up on waivers would have been better because anyone on waivers would have produced similarly. We paid for a guy who was about to go on waivers.

We paid picks early in Bennings tenure for guys similar to shinkaruks value like Baertschi, Pedan, Vey

We traded Shinkaruk for a waivers player.

I’m not saying we should have gotten a second but I don’t see why we couldn’t have gotten a third or fourth instead if they were eager to dump him.

 

[Peen]

delwte

 

[vanuck]

Didn't our very own GM trade a 2nd for Vey who was about to go on waivers? Or a guy like Baertschi?

Yet at the same time, how is it impossible that Shinkaruk - who was younger at the time - would've garnered a similar return from another team?

 

[MS]

You don't seem to understand that just because you hold Shinkaruk of that era in the same regard as Rathbone and other prospects, doesn't mean that the league does.

*AGAIN*, I'm not directly comparing Rathbone and Shinkaruk. I'm using Rathbone as a current example to highlight your logical fallacies in evaluating this trade.

I have time for this argument. Obviously the thing to do was to rebuild.

That's a problem with the overall philosophy of the time. But clearly Shinkaruk had next to no value at the time, and we still won the trade.

This isn't clear at all.

I've followed hockey for a long time and I've never seen a #1 pick lighting up the AHL in his draft+3 season who had 'zero value'. Dano and Rychel were performing worse at that level at the same time as guys taken at the same spot in the same draft and apparently both had substantial value.

Granlund was absolute garbage. Acquiring a player that crap and forcing him onto the team for 4 years when he wasn't an NHL-caliber player hurt the team. We would have been better off trading Shinkaruk for nothing than trading him for Granlund. This isn't a 'win'.

He literally did boost Shink like Gillis did in the minors.

Again, playing your best offensive player in offensive situations is not 'pump and dumping' them. Are we pump-and-dumping Pettersson and Boeser right now?

 

[Peen]

@MarkusNaslund19 I also saw you suggest that I was being impatient with Hughes because of my criticisms with his current play. I don’t know why you are preaching
patience when the GM made short sighted win now moves. He must have thought Hughes was more ready then? Or that Myers could handle matchups if Hughes couldn’t? How patient should we be with Hughes defensive game? Wait until he is 25? Someone else made a great point - if he develops into a better Krug, you invest in him long term. If he’s a better Barrie, you trade him.

Reality is they both can’t be making that much if we want to win because that means we won't be able to invest money into guys who can actually match up against other teams best players. Do you think you can win a cup paying Myers and Hughes 12MM+ for both of them to be unable to play matchup minutes?

If not, what’s the point of keeping Myers?

 

[Johnny Canucker]

Why do people on these boards always believe that they know everything.

The Shinkaruk myth is one of my least favorite parts about these boards.

The Canucks played him in the minors in a way that increased his value (much like Gillis did with Hodgson in Vancouver). Then they dumped him for a better player.
I'm not a big fan of Granlund, but he had single games where he scored more goals than Shinkaruk did in his entire NHL career.

Oh, and by the way, that pump and dump worked. He scored at a higher rate for that half of a season than he has since at any level. Apparently it worked so well that it fooled like 85% of the posters on here into thinking that we should have been getting some mythical draft picks.

Maybe we got what we got because that was the best that was available.

And for those who say, "well, we should have gotten a 5th, that would have been better".

The majority on this board said the same when we acquired Tyler Motte in the Vanek deal. I disagreed because I had actually, you know, watched Motte play.
I was drowned out by a chorus of people who knew better despite never having watched him play.

What do you know? Now he's probably our best bottom 6er.

You’re missing the entire point. “Pump and dump worked” .... shouldn’t have to “pump” a first round pick to try and dump him.
THATS the point.

 

[Johnny Canucker]

People defending JB are nuts.
Let’s forget about the trades and signings and spending up to the cap for a basement dweller.

how many expiring UFAs has he turned in to draft picks at the deadline?

 

[Johnny Canucker]

Should be actively moving Kane and Toews then no? And where are they in the process are they ready to contend? is making the playoffs this year gonna help if they do with all the signings and vets they still have around?

Could very easily be Buffalo is 5yrs? Is that the rebuild you were looking for? You do realize a rebuild is committing to 7yrs of being bad and then hoping the top end you drafted are worthy of taking you to contender status?

Sure made Toews happy to hear the news....nothing like killing the desire of one of your franchises greatest players that's got to help the atmosphere around the team?

Maybe it works out but maybe you can retool as well like the Bruins were able to do had they actually got something for Panarin and other players and been able to snag some key players in the draft.

Bottom line it wasn't a possibility for this team in 2014-17 so why people lament it is a waste of time.

How can you compare to Boston and Chicago who have won cups this last decade? If we Won a cup, I have no issue with a 10 year rebuild. We are rebuilding and are shit for over a decade with literally no end in sight.

 

[Hodgy]

It really is a hilarious notion that Shinkaruk wasn’t worth a 2nd, 3rd or 4th when Jim Benning is literally tossing mid round picks around like candy for 20-23 year old prospects that can’t make their own team. Shinkaruk is the exact type of player Jim was trading picks for!

@MarkusNaslund19, how do you reconcile this with Shinkaruk not being worth a mid round pick?

 

[F A N]

It really is a hilarious notion that Shinkaruk wasn’t worth a 2nd, 3rd or 4th when Jim Benning is literally tossing mid round picks around like candy for 20-23 year old prospects that can’t make their own team. Shinkaruk is the exact type of player Jim was trading picks for!

@MarkusNaslund19, how do you reconcile this with Shinkaruk not being worth a mid round pick?

You know there's a huge difference between a 2nd round pick and a 4th round pick right. A "mid round pick" would be a 4th-5th round pick?

The prospects Benning traded for could be classified as "knocking on the door" as they had spent some time in the NHL and (may have) shown flashes of what they can do. Vey for example played 18 games his previous season, Baertschi 15 but overall had 66 games in the NHL, Goldobin had 11 games, and Granlund was in the NHL playing games.

With that said, I think Shinkaruk could have been traded for a mid round team if some team wanted him. I won't rehash the trade arguments but Granlund was only about 18 months older and outscored Shinkaruk at the AHL level.

 

[rypper]

Hunter Shinkaruk is currently playing in China, for the Kunlun Red Star of the KHL. Alexei Kovalev is the head coach. I just found that kind of interesting.

 

[Snatcher Demko]

Shat turns into Granlund

Benning in his infinite wisdom believes Granlund needs to be protected from the ED so ships out Hansen who is arguably our best trade chip at that time to SJ for another failing prospect in Goldobin.

Granlund walks for nothing

Goldobin walks for nothing

That right there is Jim Benning management 101...bleed assets for 0 return and completely waste our time.

That's the frustration with Benning, one bad decision that begets so many others.

With some foresight a team like Vancouver was in perfect position to make a killing off the expansion draft and key in on other GM's mistakes.

Let's not forget Aquilini though. He shares equal blame from my POV.

 

[F A N]

Hunter Shinkaruk is currently playing in China, for the Kunlun Red Star of the KHL. Alexei Kovalev is the head coach. I just found that kind of interesting.

Oh wow. I didn't know Kovalev was coaching. I see that he served two years as an assistant coach for Kunlun before becoming their head coach this year. They suck though. I would have thought that they have the resources to field a better team. They should try and sign Markus Granlund and Reid Boucher.

 

[canuckking1]

 

[mathonwy]

Shat turns into Granlund

Benning in his infinite wisdom believes Granlund needs to be protected from the ED so ships out Hansen who is arguably our best trade chip at that time to SJ for another failing prospect in Goldobin.

Granlund walks for nothing

Goldobin walks for nothing

That right there is Jim Benning management 101...bleed assets for 0 return and completely waste our time.

Never change