Management Thread. A Fist Full of Dollars: Gunslinger Final Edition, Pt IlI

[VanJack]

Consensus around the league is that the Canucks have a good young corps....and they'd be right.

What's letting the side down now, is awful contracts for unproductive veteran players. And until they an unload them and fill in the roster with productive but cheap players, they'll be what they've always been. A mediocre team, basically on the playoff bubble year after year.

You just hope some of these young players don't start getting frustrated, and it affects their development. Sadly you're seeing signs of that now.

 

[Frankie Blueberries]

Consensus around the league is that the Canucks have a good young corps....and they'd be right.

What's letting the side down now, is awful contracts for unproductive veteran players. And until they an unload them and fill in the roster with productive but cheap players, they'll be what they've always been. A mediocre team, basically on the playoff bubble year after year.

You just hope some of these young players don't start getting frustrated, and it affects their development. Sadly you're seeing signs of that now.

It's hard not to beat a dead horse when the same issues handicap the team, year after year.

I know this is easier said than done (given our shitty owner who provided a terrible agenda to management) but all management had to have done was the bare minimum in terms of just letting things ride out (status quo). Retain the 2nd round picks from Garrison, Bieksa, etc. Don't blow cap space on aging depth players; just fill the roster with short-term contracts that you hope you can trade for assets at the deadline and wait until the core is competitive to make a splash on big names. Don't trade futures for rentals for a one-off playoff season (Toffoli) when you could have just signed the player for free the next offseason. Don't target waiver-eligible busts who haven't proven anything at the NHL level post-draft (Vey, Baertschi, Larsen, Pouliot, Clendening, Gudbranson, etc.).

All we needed to do was maintain status quo, stockpile futures, and not blow our cap space on depth players - but instead we did the opposite.

 

[timw33]

Consensus around the league is that the Canucks have a good young corps....and they'd be right.

What's letting the side down now, is awful contracts for unproductive veteran players. And until they an unload them and fill in the roster with productive but cheap players, they'll be what they've always been. A mediocre team, basically on the playoff bubble year after year.

You just hope some of these young players don't start getting frustrated, and it affects their development. Sadly you're seeing signs of that now.

I just think our good young core just doesn't have enough good young D-men (especially minute munchers) in the lineup and in the developmental system to have a sniff at becoming a contender, compounded by managements absolute inability to bring in any quality D through pro scouting until Nate Schmidt landed in their laps.

 

[MS]

It's hard not to beat a dead horse when the same issues handicap the team, year after year.

I know this is easier said than done (given our shitty owner who provided a terrible agenda to management) but all management had to have done was the bare minimum in terms of just letting things ride out (status quo). Retain the 2nd round picks from Garrison, Bieksa, etc. Don't blow cap space on aging depth players; just fill the roster with short-term contracts that you hope you can trade for assets at the deadline and wait until the core is competitive to make a splash on big names. Don't trade futures for rentals for a one-off playoff season (Toffoli) when you could have just signed the player for free the next offseason. Don't target waiver-eligible busts who haven't proven anything at the NHL level post-draft (Vey, Baertschi, Larsen, Pouliot, Clendening, Gudbranson, etc.).

All we needed to do was maintain status quo, stockpile futures, and not blow our cap space on depth players - but instead we did the opposite.

Even if Benning is fired in 2017 - the point where it should have happened - and there are 3 years of colossal mismanagement, if another GM comes in and doesn’t sign the Beagle/Roussel/Myers/Ferland/Baertschi contracts and trades Sutter when he had value, this franchise is in a completely different position right now. With the same young core.

 

[IslandBeast]

It's hard not to beat a dead horse when the same issues handicap the team, year after year.

I know this is easier said than done (given our shitty owner who provided a terrible agenda to management) but all management had to have done was the bare minimum in terms of just letting things ride out (status quo). Retain the 2nd round picks from Garrison, Bieksa, etc. Don't blow cap space on aging depth players; just fill the roster with short-term contracts that you hope you can trade for assets at the deadline and wait until the core is competitive to make a splash on big names. Don't trade futures for rentals for a one-off playoff season (Toffoli) when you could have just signed the player for free the next offseason. Don't target waiver-eligible busts who haven't proven anything at the NHL level post-draft (Vey, Baertschi, Larsen, Pouliot, Clendening, Gudbranson, etc.).

All we needed to do was maintain status quo, stockpile futures, and not blow our cap space on depth players - but instead we did the opposite.

I mean in terms of value we have just let walk right out the door... We're talking multiple high draft picks in the 1-3 round range even if you only sell half of that list.

Hamhuis
Richardson(still in the league wearing an "A")
Stecher
Vrbata
Miller
Tanev
Markstrom
Mathias(Wasn't good but still signed the following year and was traded at the deadline for a pick the season after we let him walk)

To top it all off we just finished the most recent draft making just 5 selections, none until the 3rd round. What a mess

 

[Jyrki21]

Be careful what you ask for because if Benning is fired that means Weisbrod could be in charge.

Man, I'd certainly hope Aquilini would take them as a package. That would be an insane result, although I imagine he'd wear out his welcome quickly anyhow. I sort of have some faith it wouldn't happen... Gilman didn't even receive the interim tag when Gillis was fired. (Reminder that Gilman then interviewed for the GM job and lost out to Jim frickin' Benning).

Juolevi over Tkachuk was a completely inexcusable pick that needs to be shown right beside Pettersson and Hughes if you're going to defend Benning's drafting ability.

That was also very clearly the pick where he had the most direct influence, too, and drifted farthest from consensus. That's a hell of a lot more telling to me than any other high draft pick.

 

[SeawaterOnIce]

Save Bennings firing for when we have fans.

We can have a ceremony to mark the event! A special guest Vince McMahon can do the honors!

"I speak on behalf of Vancouver when I say....Jim Benning...."

Fans can sing the Na Na Hey Hey Goodbye song as he leaves the ice.

 

[Frankie Blueberries]

I mean in terms of value we have just let walk right out the door... We're talking multiple high draft picks in the 1-3 round range even if you only sell half of that list.

Hamhuis
Richardson(still in the league wearing an "A")
Stecher
Vrbata
Miller
Tanev
Markstrom
Mathias(Wasn't good but still signed the following year and was traded at the deadline for a pick the season after we let him walk)

To top it all off we just finished the most recent draft making just 5 selections, none until the 3rd round. What a mess

One of the biggest red flags should have been the Kesler trade and how we continued to bleed assets from it.
We lost Kesler (2 years left at $5 mill), 33rd overall, a 3rd round pick, and downgraded a 2nd round pick, and ended up with Pearson and Sutter. Brutal.

 

[M2Beezy]

We would be 0-6 if we had last years Boeser too YIKES

 

[Dab]

Man, I'd certainly hope Aquilini would take them as a package. That would be an insane result, although I imagine he'd wear out his welcome quickly anyhow. I sort of have some faith it wouldn't happen... Gilman didn't even receive the interim tag when Gillis was fired. (Reminder that Gilman then interviewed for the GM job and lost out to Jim frickin' Benning).


That was also very clearly the pick where he had the most direct influence, too, and drifted farthest from consensus. That's a hell of a lot more telling to me than any other high draft pick.

I wouldn’t put it past Weisbrod to already be shmoozing Il Duce and ingratiating him knowing that Bennings days are numbered.

 

[Frankie Blueberries]

What does Weisbrod even do here? What has he done over the last 7 years? All I know is he pushed for a pick that everyone else already wanted (Hughes). What else? Guy seems super useless and was all pouty we didn't take Glass over Pettersson lmao.

 

[SeawaterOnIce]

I wouldn’t put it past Weisbrod to already be shmoozing Il Duce and ingratiating him knowing that Bennings days are numbered.

That happens and I will donate my Canucks crap and officially support the Kraken as the local team.

I was a Whitecaps fan since the 90s and officially ceased all interest or fandom in 2018.

 

[AdvancedPressure]

I'm sure it's been beaten to death already, but terrible depth and brutal contracts in the bottom six have killed this team. Having so much money tied up in guys like Sutter, Beagle, Roussel, and Eriksson put the team in a position where they had to let some really key guys go this offseason. It's poor cap management and it absolutely should fall on Benning. At this point the big fear is that he trades away futures in an attempt to salvage the season (and possibly his job).

 

[thefeebster]

Hibernating for 5 years and we still on this debate. Juolevi was the wrong pick the second it was made. Tkachuk vs Juolevi is a hill i am ready to die on. Some here said Tkachuk was simply riding coat-tails and had slow feet. Yeah ok. Who is the slow one now? I hope those ppl remember this when arguing for "need". Tkachuk is exactly what we need.

Agreed, the worst part of the Juolevi pick isn’t Tkachuk imo, it’s that Sergachev/McAvoy/Chychrun were 3 of the next 4 Dmen taken.

I'm glad you brought this up. This was a draft where no single defender pulled away from the defender group pre-draft, despite some attempts to crown Juolevi the next Lidstrom when he showed nothing of the sort as a Knight. Somehow we've taken the worst one of the bunch. Forwards dominated the top end and we only had one thing to do, take whichever one of PLD or Tkachuk (the expected 4-5) was remaining at #5 and that draft would've been a success.

 

[4Twenty]

problem with the good young core label is that it’s not a very large group of players and in 56 games only Pettersson and Hughes would classify as U23 (think team North America at last World Cup ages).

Yes there is Hoglander but is he a core player or is he Virtanen/Gaudette level?

The core of the defender is 30+ with Myers and Schmidt moving forward and I can’t see how 35 year old edler won’t be re-signed.

All of a sudden you’re not that young, you failed to capture your window and now there are new young teams coming up from behind.

This was always the problem on declaring 4 or 5 high draft picks equaling a contending core. It needs proper management.

We got the worst I’ve ever seen. You only need to look at the current defence and how it falls apart in year 7 without 30+ year old inherited pieces. You couldn’t really do worse if you tried. It worse than Ottawa who everyone laughed at in the offseason.

 

[timw33]

So when is the actual rebuild going to start? Before the Miller/Horvat deals end?

 

[Frankie Blueberries]

problem with the good young core label is that it’s not a very large group of players and in 56 games only Pettersson and Hughes would classify as U23 (think team North America at last World Cup ages).

Yes there is Hoglander but is he a core player or is he Virtanen/Gaudette level?

The core of the defender is 30+ with Myers and Schmidt moving forward and I can’t see how 35 year old edler won’t be re-signed.

All of a sudden you’re not that young, you failed to capture your window and now there are new young teams coming up from behind.

This was always the problem on declaring 4 or 5 high draft picks equaling a contending core. It needs proper management.

We got the worst I’ve ever seen. You only need to look at the current defence and how it falls apart in year 7 without 30+ year old inherited pieces. You couldn’t really do worse if you tried. It worse than Ottawa who everyone laughed at in the offseason.

What really stands out is that over the course of 7 (SEVEN) drafts, picking in the top 10 the majority of the time along with high 2nd/3rd/4th/etc. round picks, the Canucks have only drafted ONE proven NHL defenceman in Hughes. I realize later round picks like Rathbone and Woo take time to develop and shouldn't be dismissed, but this is still a pretty shocking outcome given how we supposedly have a draft guru GM and have had so many high picks across so many drafts. How the hell does this happen?

You look at every draft, and there are plenty of quality defencemen in the later rounds that the Canucks always seem to miss out on.

2014: Pettersson (38th), Montour (55th), Toews (108th);
2015: Dermott (34th), Carlo (37th), Cernak (43rd), Andersson (53rd), Dunn (56th), Jones (117th), Bear (124th), Marino (154th), Gavrikov (159th), Nutivaara (189th), Niku (198th)
2016: Girard (47th), Lindgren (49th), Hronek (53rd), Fox (66th), Mete (100th)
2017: Hague (34th), Ferraro (49th), Aho (139th)

You'd think a GM who specializes in drafting could have hit on at least one of those.

Funnily enough, the two defencemen the Canucks have drafted who have cracked the NHL (Tryamkin and Forsling), yet the team decided to part ways with.

 

[Fatass]

What really stands out is that over the course of 7 (SEVEN) drafts, picking in the top 10 the majority of the time along with high 2nd/3rd/4th/etc. round picks, the Canucks have only drafted ONE proven NHL defenceman in Hughes. I realize later round picks like Rathbone and Woo take time to develop and shouldn't be dismissed, but this is still a pretty shocking outcome given how we supposedly have a draft guru GM and have had so many high picks across so many drafts. How the hell does this happen?

You look at every draft, and there are plenty of quality defencemen in the later rounds that the Canucks always seem to miss out on.

2014: Pettersson (38th), Montour (55th), Toews (108th);
2015: Dermott (34th), Carlo (37th), Cernak (43rd), Andersson (53rd), Dunn (56th), Jones (117th), Bear (124th), Marino (154th), Gavrikov (159th), Nutivaara (189th), Niku (198th)
2016: Girard (47th), Lindgren (49th), Hronek (53rd), Fox (66th), Mete (100th)
2017: Hague (34th), Ferraro (49th), Aho (139th)

You'd think a GM who specializes in drafting could have hit on at least one of those.

Funnily enough, the two defencemen the Canucks have drafted who have cracked the NHL (Tryamkin and Forsling), yet the team decided to part ways with.

In 2018 wasn’t Romonav taken by the Habs the pick after Benning took Woo? I think I have that right.

 

[xtra]

The sad part is that even if benning is fired tomorrow our chance for competing is still 3 years away. 2 years to get out of this contract hell and then at least a year or two to build the appropriate supporting pieces and at that time you have to wonder if Miller (would be 30) and horvat (is a free agent) are a part of the core or you need to deal them in that third season.


I’m not optimistic about the team for a bit

 

[Fatass]

The sad part is that even if benning is fired tomorrow our chance for competing is still 3 years away. 2 years to get out of this contract hell and then at least a year or two to build the appropriate supporting pieces and at that time you have to wonder if Miller (would be 30) and horvat (is a free agent) are a part of the core or you need to deal them in that third season.


I’m not optimistic about the team for a bit

Hopefully the new GM would identify a time (like you point out) 2 years from now, and trade pieces like Miller and Bo for future assets that will help more in that next window. Both these guys are on great contracts, and they are fabulous players. Their value is extremely high. Maybe there are a couple younger guys, who could come back in trade, that better fit the next window? How about PLD and ?

 

[y2kcanucks]

Be careful what you ask for because if Benning is fired that means Weisbrod could be in charge.

We truly have a heck of a front office don't we.

I could see him receiving the interim tag for the remainder of the season if that's how it goes down. But I can't see Benning fired in the offseason only to be replaced by Weisbrod.

 

[y2kcanucks]

Hopefully the new GM would identify a time (like you point out) 2 years from now, and trade pieces like Miller and Bo for future assets that will help more in that next window. Both these guys are on great contracts, and they are fabulous players. Their value is extremely high. Maybe there are a couple younger guys, who could come back in trade, that better fit the next window? How about PLD and ?

We could potentially have a Colorado-like future, but it would require a lot to go right.

The Pettersson/Boeser core could be similar to MacKinnon/Landeskog where they were around with the team for a few years before the team became any good. We'll still need to find our Rantanen, as well as our Makar (and ideally Byram/Newhook). Those will have to come this year and next. And like you say, we'll need to get rid of these bad contracts while ensuring we do not sign any new bad contracts to replace them.

It's a tough ask, but not impossible if we replace our current incompetent management with a group that is very good at their jobs. I'm all for tanking this season to put the final nail in the coffin on the Benning mistake regime. Not only would that lead to better management (almost by default), but this year's draft is loaded with good defensemen at the top end.

 

[xtra]

Hopefully the new GM would identify a time (like you point out) 2 years from now, and trade pieces like Miller and Bo for future assets that will help more in that next window. Both these guys are on great contracts, and they are fabulous players. Their value is extremely high. Maybe there are a couple younger guys, who could come back in trade, that better fit the next window? How about PLD and ?

I was talking to a friend and I proposed Miller for PLD and a first.

it would depend on a few things:
1: does cbj see themselves as a contender/solid playoff team

2: what do we assume our actual timeline for competing is.

3: how much has PLDs attitude effected his value

 

[HedonisticAltruism]

I don't know if this is off topic, but with (unsurprising talk) of our draft position, I'm less optimistic this is a great year to do it (assuming it's planned). I think many young players are missing out on key years of development, so that any evaluation on where they are is going to have much higher variance than previous years. In other words, you're more likely to get lucky with a lower draft pick this year than others, meaning the higher ones are worth less. As is the Canucks' luck, we'll probably win the draft lotto this year.

 

[RandV]

So when is the actual rebuild going to start? Before the Miller/Horvat deals end?

Same as it's been the last 7 years, nothing really starts until we get a competent GM. At this point though under competent management you're more likely looking at a quick retool rather than a rebuild.