Malkin, Crosby, Kessel on different Lines?

[IcedCapp]

it's dumb. here's why:

you are saying "we're creating balanced lines" but in creating "balance" you are either playing one of your three-best forwards too-few minutes or you are playing multiple third-line players too many minutes.

I will explain this as I think it needs to be explained based on the posts by people who are in favor of this move:

you have team
team play hockey
you have many players on team
many of those players not great
you play best players a lot
if you split up best players too much you play bad players more
bad players playing more bad
good players playing more good

I, too, remember when I discovered online message boards.

In 1998.

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

Meh, agree to disagree. Maybe I have a higher opinion of Hornqvist/Perron. Obviously the point is moot if if Kessel hits it off with one of C/M, but a 30-40 goal Kessel on Crosby's wing is a waste of both of their abilities to elevate other players (IMO).

As an opposition fan, a top 9

Perron-Crosby-Bennett
Plotnikov-Malkin-Hornqvist
Kunitz-Bonino-Kessel

is absolutely terrifying.

For years I've seen Kessel's ability to elevate lesser talents (and I'd say Bonino is better than Bozak) and continue to put up 30 goals, while being the oppositions prime shut down target. The idea of what he could do against third pairings...

Obviously it's not the prime option, but if Kessel is playing with Crosby/Malkin and not putting up 50, you just gave up a 1st, two good prospects and a solid 3rd liner for a 10-15 goal upgrade, and I think considering other options to potentially maximize the acquisition would be an ok thing.

But again, purely as a back up plan. Obviously the hope is that he hits it off with one of them

Kessel was brought in to make Malkin/Crosby better.

It's not about just his goals, it's about the space he will create for them and his playmaking that will elevate their games.

Both Crosby and Malkin are former 50 goal scorers, but haven't had anyone to feed them the puck their entire careers. That's where Kessel comes in. Kessel is just as likely to setup Malkin or Crosby for a goal, as the opposite.

He can't do that on the third line. That's the point some are missing here.

 

[4thline]

Kessel was brought in to make Malkin/Crosby better.

It's not about just his goals, it's about the space he will create for them and his playmaking that will elevate their games.

Both Crosby and Malkin are former 50 goal scorers, but haven't had anyone to feed them the puck their entire careers. That's where Kessel comes in.

He can't do that on the third line. That's the point some are missing here.

Obviously. And if that's what transpires you don't consider splitting them up, you have the most potent line in hockey.

But if for whatever reason they don't click and are only producing at their normal levels keeping them together because "good players play more good" is rather stubborn, and frankly simple minded. Refusing to consider anything that would raise the net goal output of the team on is in that same category.

 

[Nakawick]

Meh, agree to disagree. Maybe I have a higher opinion of Hornqvist/Perron. Obviously the point is moot if if Kessel hits it off with one of C/M, but a 30-40 goal Kessel on Crosby's wing is a waste of both of their abilities to elevate other players (IMO).

As an opposition fan, a top 9

Perron-Crosby-Bennett
Plotnikov-Malkin-Hornqvist
Kunitz-Bonino-Kessel

is absolutely terrifying.

For years I've seen Kessel's ability to elevate lesser talents (and I'd say Bonino is better than Bozak) and continue to put up 30 goals, while being the oppositions prime shut down target. The idea of what he could do against third pairings...

Obviously it's not the prime option, but if Kessel is playing with Crosby/Malkin and not putting up 50, you just gave up a 1st, two good prospects and a solid 3rd liner for a 10-15 goal upgrade, and I think considering other options to potentially maximize the acquisition would be an ok thing.

But again, purely as a back up plan. Obviously the hope is that he hits it off with one of them

People are forgetting that Kessel is like a Kane type of player in the sense that he could play on our third line and be as effective as he was on the first line in TO. JR wanted 4 scoring lines, MJ is based on a mobile D. A Plotnikov Bonino Kessel line or a Dupuis Fehr Kessel line could be a ******** to plan for. But we want The Phil to click with someone else first.

 

[Speaking Moistly]

I swear to god the board is getting stupider. Fire hot, no touch.

 

[Penguinator]

Honestly i wouldn't mind at all if MJ did that but... Rarely, just to mess with the other coach's mind/lines. Could also come in handy if we're leading big time & he he wants to rests some guys.

 

[3074326]

I have no issues with the big 3 getting an extra shift or two with the third line, but let's keep them together. That will benefit the team more.

 

[robopigeon]

I encourage everyone in favor of this to go back and watch highlights (did we even have highlights...?) of the 2013 Playoff series with Boston.

Acquire Hall of Fame right winger in Iginla.
Play him on the third line.
Play third liners in the Top 6 (Malkin centered Kennedy-Cooke at times, for christ sakes! Neal was... god, who knows, we had an idiot coach).

Crosby gets 22 minutes a game with no one to pass to.
Malkin gets 22 minutes a game with no one to pass to.
Iginla gets 15 minutes a game with nobody to give him the puck.

Result: Brutal 4 game sweep. O points for Crosby and Malkin.

 

[td_ice]

The problem is your idea, even if it's only utilized "in certain situations" or "to shake things up" is still a bad one because it ignores the fact that a]that means we're back to having Sid and Geno having to carry their line's offense again, which has failed multiple years in a row, so why would it work now? and b]that you expect Kessel to still give you top end production while playing with lesser players instead of giving him two world class centers to play with.

If the Pens ever get to the point where they need to put Kessel on the third line because it's not working or they're not successful with him in the top two lines, then as td said above (paraphrasing), we're in deep **** at that point. The Pens have failed the last few seasons because Sid and Geno get swarmed in the playoffs and their wingers aren't good enough to help them out. Playing a winger who could solve that problem on the third line just means we'll see L1 and L2 look like ass again.

Yep.

It truly is a horrible idea.

 

[4thline]

All I'm saying is
Crosby- good to drive a 50-68 even strength goal line
Malkin- ditto
Kessel-ditto
Bonino-35ish

If if the addition of Kessel doesn't drastically boost the even-strength production of Crosby or Malkin (which is the hope and the plan, but not a given) then its a waste to leave him there.

Whether its 80,60,35 or 60, 60, 55. The net is the same, and both better than 65, 60, 35

I know the hope is for a 90,60, 35 though.

 

[xxxxxxxxxxxxxx]

This isn't an a situation of objective vs. subjective.

Kessel on any line outside of the 1st (with Sid) or 2nd (with Geno) is a stupid idea, and should never happen. If it does, MJ should be handed his walking papers. I don't care if it's mid-period.

 

[Ragamuffin Gunner]

The first time they do it, I am bumping this thread for the trolls. ;/

not liking a horrible idea doesn't make some one a troll.

 

[IcedCapp]

It doesn't matter if Kessel doesn't push Crosby or Malkin's production. It doesn't matter if Crosby and Malkin don't push Kessel's production.

By placing Kessel on the 3rd like you, the decision maker, are reducing Kessel's production by limiting his minutes. Or you're still giving Kessel, Malkin, and Crosby equal time, which means you're under playing your top-6 and over playing Bonino.

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

Obviously. And if that's what transpires you don't consider splitting them up, you have the most potent line in hockey.

But if for whatever reason they don't click and are only producing at their normal levels keeping them together because "good players play more good" is rather stubborn, and frankly simple minded. Refusing to consider anything that would raise the net goal output of the team on is in that same category.

I honestly can't see a scenario where Kessel has trouble finding chemistry with both Malkin and Crosby. Maybe one, but both? I can't see it.

Injuries aside, Kessel literally should not play a single shift all season without one of their star pivots 5v5 and 4v4. Those three are too explosive to waste any shifts all season split up.

 

[PensFanSince1989]

Meh, agree to disagree. Maybe I have a higher opinion of Hornqvist/Perron. Obviously the point is moot if if Kessel hits it off with one of C/M, but a 30-40 goal Kessel on Crosby's wing is a waste of both of their abilities to elevate other players (IMO).

As an opposition fan, a top 9

Perron-Crosby-Bennett
Plotnikov-Malkin-Hornqvist
Kunitz-Bonino-Kessel

is absolutely terrifying.

For years I've seen Kessel's ability to elevate lesser talents (and I'd say Bonino is better than Bozak) and continue to put up 30 goals, while being the oppositions prime shut down target. The idea of what he could do against third pairings...

Obviously it's not the prime option, but if Kessel is playing with Crosby/Malkin and not putting up 50, you just gave up a 1st, two good prospects and a solid 3rd liner for a 10-15 goal upgrade, and I think considering other options to potentially maximize the acquisition would be an ok thing.

But again, purely as a back up plan. Obviously the hope is that he hits it off with one of them

No, it's absolutely not. Teams will put best players against Crosby and Malkin still, focus all on them when they are on the ice forcing them to dump it in from the neutral zone, and putting way too much pressure on Kessel and his line. We've seen what happens when you make lines in which Crosby and Malkin are the only ones on their lines with the ability to carry the puck up the ice and gain entry into the zone. It's not pretty. Kessel should solve a lot of that...but not if he's on the third line.

 

[4thline]

It doesn't matter if Kessel doesn't push Crosby or Malkin's production. It doesn't matter if Crosby and Malkin don't push Kessel's production.

By placing Kessel on the 3rd like you, the decision maker, are reducing Kessel's production by limiting his minutes. Or you're still giving Kessel, Malkin, and Crosby equal time, which means you're under playing your top-6 and over playing Bonino.

So the actual impact on goals scored doesn't matter because playing Bonino an extra minute at even strength is fundamentally a bad thing that trumps all results?

What if I told you that Malkin and Kessel both average 14.5 minutes per game even strength last year (Crosby 15), and that that distribution could be maintained (based on Sutter's 13 minutes) simply by shorting your fourth line by a minute?

 

[xxxxxxxxxxxxxx]

Which scenario is going to be most conducive to production, resulting in more wins; Kessel with one of the two best players on Earth, or Kessel with Bonino?

Pretty much boils down to that. End of story. No debate.

I get the whole spread out the talent, be a deep team thing. This is not how you do that.

 

[4thline]

I honestly can't see a scenario where Kessel has trouble finding chemistry with both Malkin and Crosby. Maybe one, but both? I can't see it.

Injuries aside, Kessel literally should not play a single shift all season without one of their star pivots 5v5 and 4v4. Those three are too explosive to waste any shifts all season split up.

It'll be interesting for sure. You guys have a very exciting season ahead of you. I'm gonna bow out now though, defending the merit of someone else's idea as a last ditch hypothetical contingency plan if Kessel doesn't mesh based on marginal benefit has well, not been the most welcoming experience . But I get what you all are saying. You've gotten what you've all been waiting for a long time.

 

[Coach Travis]

I could see it in the Playoffs. I've had the same idea. If it wasn't for an elite 3rd line we never would have won a Cup. Sid essentially got shutdown by being shadowed by Zetterberg, Lidstrom & Datsyuk when he came back. He was essentially triple-teamed. Malkin's line had *some* room and Staal's line dummied whoever they were matched up against.

If our offence is entirely being shut down, let Sid be the sacrificial lamb, Geno isn't going to go unnoticed either so you slip Kessel & Perron to your third line with Bonino and let them run havoc on the Cumesky's of the world.

 

[Coach Travis]

Which scenario is going to be most conducive to production, resulting in more wins; Kessel with one of the two best players on Earth, or Kessel with Bonino?

Pretty much boils down to that. End of story. No debate.

I get the whole spread out the talent, be a deep team thing. This is not how you do that.

It's not.. Until it is. We shouldn't be so close minded. People still think you need a "shut down" line. It's a necessity due to cap reasons not an ideal.

 

[IcedCapp]

So the actual impact on goals scored doesn't matter because playing Bonino an extra minute at even strength is fundamentally a bad thing that trumps all results?

What if I told you that Malkin and Kessel both average 14.5 minutes per game even strength last year (Crosby 15), and that that distribution could be maintained (based on Sutter's 13 minutes) simply by shorting your fourth line by a minute?

Or you could increase your top-6 (that includes Kessel) rather than Nick Bonino and Beau Bennett or Eric Fehr.

This entire thread is equivalent to fancy play syndrome in poker. Sometimes the simplest, most-logical solution is the best.

I'm sorry that 3 or 4 of you have convinced yourselves that this makes sense. I once bought an x-box kinnect. **** happens.

 

[xxxxxxxxxxxxxx]

It's not.. Until it is. We shouldn't be so close minded. People still think you need a "shut down" line. It's a necessity due to cap reasons not an ideal.

There is literally no scenario outside of Sid and Geno both going down to injury that Kessel should ever be centered by another player on our team than those two.

There just isn't.

 

[Zirakzigil]

Personally I think Malkin - Crosby - Kessel should be a line.


I say start with Perron - Crosby - Hornqvist and ? - Malkin - Kessel and see how things go.

 

[IcedCapp]

Let's say the lines are

Kunitz - Crosby - Hornqvist
Plotnikov - Malkin - Kessel
Bonino - Fehr - Dupuis


You're basically saying, "in the playoffs, if we aren't scoring, we should give Malkin's wingers to Nick Bonino"

Because that's what will get them going. And playing with Fehr and Dupuis is what's going to get Malkin going.

Someone had a bad idea. Some people bought in. Now there's a group of people doubling down on bad idea jeans.

 

[Zirakzigil]

Let's say the lines are

Kunitz - Crosby - Hornqvist
Plotnikov - Malkin - Kessel
Bonino - Fehr - Dupuis


You're basically saying, "in the playoffs, if we aren't scoring, we should give Malkin's wingers to Nick Bonino"

Because that's what will get them going. And playing with Fehr and Dupuis is what's going to get Malkin going.

Someone had a bad idea. Some people bought in. Now there's a group of people doubling down on bad idea jeans.

Did Perron die?