Making a mountain out of many molehills?

meefer

Registered User
Jun 9, 2015
4,714
4,655
Bangkok
Hello friends, hope you're all having a great day! But, from reading a good number of threads the past few weeks I don't think such is the case. There seems to be a good deal of misery in the land of Leaf fans. I, however, don't share the degree of pessimism that seems to haunt many. Please allow me a moment to explain why...
*The Leafs are an extremely talented team, especially up front. Our D corp is noticeably weaker, but I think we can agree that at least our LD players are all NHL competent.
*Goaltending hasn't, for the most part, been a concern and in Fred A. we've got ourselves a talent.
*Love him or hate him, Babcock is a good, if stubborn, NHL coach. You don't win 600+ games and produce the 20th overall highest percentage of points won without having some good abilities/philosophies about the game.
*Dubas, while young and largely untested at the NHL level, has consistently produced winning products in his climb to the top. Yes, one can argue that he's not led this team to the levels of success it should be achieving, but one can counter that opinion with a 'Rome wasn't built in a day' defense.
*Shanny has a vision, which by all accounts most agreed with and which by my estimation is still being pursued with determination. If you bought into his vision at the beginning, I'd guess you're not against it today.

Overall, I'd argue that this team is in, for the most part, a very good place...certainly better than I've seen in many a year. But those pesky molehills seem to be building a degree of frustration that is toppling the commitment/confidence towards this team. In no particular order these are all 'IMO' takes...

*Collectively, we're seeing a large group of the team losing confidence in themselves - not each other - at the same time. I think the pressure on Nylander to perform has affected him in a big way, he's not a 3.5% shooter. Kadri's historical shooting % is better than where he's at today (and if half of his hit posts went in, he'd be at 15 goals). Matthews appears injured or protecting against injury...or is timid for whatever reason. Marleau's efforts, while worrisome, are hopefully a product of knowing his body and age and saving himself for the playoffs. These four affect two of our 4 lines and leave Tavares and Marner (this past month) and our depth line to threaten on a consistent basis. Not good, but I expect some return to the mean as we move forward which will balance and improve our scoring.
*Babcock's decisions warrant examination and criticism, but not to the degree that some here present. A case could be made that his line combinations have been as flexible as at any time during his tenure here - in part due to injuries - but he has not been static. His pairings on D, I would suggest, are one area that he needs to examine, perhaps moving Dermott up to the 2nd pairing and giving Jake and Mo a go, does he rotate more on the R side, giving Marincin and Holl more time on the ice, but essentially, given the players he has: Hainsey, Zaitsev, Oz, Marincin and Holl, his options are limited. Dubas needs to address this. Stretch passes and the PP are the two areas that concern me the most in has approach to the game. But given he's only got one effective puck mover on D with each pairing, I'm not sure what his options are. The PP structure has become stagnant. I'd still split up the loaded PP, but I'd look to change things up by playing on the #1 PP: Johnnson/Matthews/Nylander with Jake and Mitch on the backend. I'd follow that with Tavares flanked by Kapanen and Kadri, with Mo and Mitch/Nylander (depending). I'd add, Andersen should be alternating with Sparks more. It allows Freddy to be better rested for the playoffs and it gives GS more chances to acclimate to the pace of the NHL.
*Dubas needs to address the D. Eastern Conference teams I'd target: 'Canes, Flyers, Devils, Wings. WC: 'Nucks, Ducks, Blues, Kings (as things stand today). I wouldn't expect to hit a home run, but an upgrade is required. A more physical player than what we currently have would be nice, but puck handling skills better than what we have are essential. Further, a forward who has a bit of a 'dangerous' element to his game, would help balance the ledger in games where our players might feel intimidated. Sadly, Dubas is handcuffed by two contracts signed by Lou: Patrick M (who I think was a brilliant add, but for too much term) and Zaitsev, which I can't understand.
*Collectively, these issues have helped contribute to a general malaise which is affecting the team and which is making this team difficult to watch. However, they are not fatal concerns (missing or losing in playoffs).

My biggest HOT take ;) is that this team has yet to determine it's identity. We're in a state of flux and don't know who to look to for the 'team' push towards accountability on the ice. We've got plenty of leadership, but are experiencing the maturing phase of learning the pecking order. Marleau and Hainsey's time of leading by example, other than in words and dressing room value, have peaked. Tavares, Kadri, Andersen, Rielly are all experienced, but have yet to assert in a big way (with Tavares, especially, being somewhat of a surprise in not shaking things up a bit...newness?). Matthews and Marner still young and not yet being given the seal of approval? Essentially, our flat performances of late are on the players. Thankfully and hopefully, I see the quality of these people as being our best chance of escaping the doldrums. As we've the All Star break coming up soon, I think now will be the perfect time for Dubas and Babcock to step in and speak to those players mentioned above and say to them, fix it, it's your team, fix it. You've got our support, you folks get the rest of the team on board and we'll figure it out from there. I like our talent, I like our character, I'd like to see an addition or two and a less dominant presentation from our coach. It's time for the players to stand up and I think they can do it. Go Leafs!

If you made it this far, you're a heck of a patient person. :thumbu:
 

AreBe

This is the Real Are Be and not a Burner account!
Apr 1, 2013
880
313
As a Leafs fan, I prefer to look at it this way:
Leafs fans are collectively incredibly stupid goon loving dinosaurs who hate skillful Europeans and want the skill players traded so the Leafs situation could worsen
And on slow news days, the Fan 590, TSN 1050 along with Sportsent and TSN sports networks are busy catching Leafs farts hoping to stumble upon something to say
And then we have the print media trying to keep the screws in the fans brains from further loosen.
 

LaPlante94

Registered User
Apr 12, 2011
6,767
3,004
As a Leafs fan, I prefer to look at it this way:
Leafs fans are collectively incredibly stupid goon loving dinosaurs who hate skillful Europeans and want the skill players traded so the Leafs situation could worsen
And on slow news days, the Fan 590, TSN 1050 along with Sportsent and TSN sports networks are busy catching Leafs farts hoping to stumble upon something to say
And then we have the print media trying to keep the screws in the fans brains from further loosen.

Oh you're one of them. Someone says we need some toughness in our lineup and you assume we mean goons who only fight. We don't hate skilled players, we actually really like them. Those skilled players aren't gonna be on their game all the time because as we've seen this year it can easily be shutdown. But yeah, screw all those guys who want guys who has great work ethic and brings it every game because they weren't gifted with amazing skill so they work harder than everyone else to be successful. Team full of skill doesn't equal success because those players that rely on their skill can be very lazy and that's not a recipe for success, especially in the playoffs.
 

ECanuck

Registered User
Jan 7, 2010
5,805
1,020
Hamilton
Hello friends, hope you're all having a great day! But, from reading a good number of threads the past few weeks I don't think such is the case. There seems to be a good deal of misery in the land of Leaf fans. I, however, don't share the degree of pessimism that seems to haunt many. Please allow me a moment to explain why...
*The Leafs are an extremely talented team, especially up front. Our D corp is noticeably weaker, but I think we can agree that at least our LD players are all NHL competent.
*Goaltending hasn't, for the most part, been a concern and in Fred A. we've got ourselves a talent.
*Love him or hate him, Babcock is a good, if stubborn, NHL coach. You don't win 600+ games and produce the 20th overall highest percentage of points won without having some good abilities/philosophies about the game.
*Dubas, while young and largely untested at the NHL level, has consistently produced winning products in his climb to the top. Yes, one can argue that he's not led this team to the levels of success it should be achieving, but one can counter that opinion with a 'Rome wasn't built in a day' defense.
*Shanny has a vision, which by all accounts most agreed with and which by my estimation is still being pursued with determination. If you bought into his vision at the beginning, I'd guess you're not against it today.

Overall, I'd argue that this team is in, for the most part, a very good place...certainly better than I've seen in many a year. But those pesky molehills seem to be building a degree of frustration that is toppling the commitment/confidence towards this team. In no particular order these are all 'IMO' takes...

*Collectively, we're seeing a large group of the team losing confidence in themselves - not each other - at the same time. I think the pressure on Nylander to perform has affected him in a big way, he's not a 3.5% shooter. Kadri's historical shooting % is better than where he's at today (and if half of his hit posts went in, he'd be at 15 goals). Matthews appears injured or protecting against injury...or is timid for whatever reason. Marleau's efforts, while worrisome, are hopefully a product of knowing his body and age and saving himself for the playoffs. These four affect two of our 4 lines and leave Tavares and Marner (this past month) and our depth line to threaten on a consistent basis. Not good, but I expect some return to the mean as we move forward which will balance and improve our scoring.
*Babcock's decisions warrant examination and criticism, but not to the degree that some here present. A case could be made that his line combinations have been as flexible as at any time during his tenure here - in part due to injuries - but he has not been static. His pairings on D, I would suggest, are one area that he needs to examine, perhaps moving Dermott up to the 2nd pairing and giving Jake and Mo a go, does he rotate more on the R side, giving Marincin and Holl more time on the ice, but essentially, given the players he has: Hainsey, Zaitsev, Oz, Marincin and Holl, his options are limited. Dubas needs to address this. Stretch passes and the PP are the two areas that concern me the most in has approach to the game. But given he's only got one effective puck mover on D with each pairing, I'm not sure what his options are. The PP structure has become stagnant. I'd still split up the loaded PP, but I'd look to change things up by playing on the #1 PP: Johnnson/Matthews/Nylander with Jake and Mitch on the backend. I'd follow that with Tavares flanked by Kapanen and Kadri, with Mo and Mitch/Nylander (depending). I'd add, Andersen should be alternating with Sparks more. It allows Freddy to be better rested for the playoffs and it gives GS more chances to acclimate to the pace of the NHL.
*Dubas needs to address the D. Eastern Conference teams I'd target: 'Canes, Flyers, Devils, Wings. WC: 'Nucks, Ducks, Blues, Kings (as things stand today). I wouldn't expect to hit a home run, but an upgrade is required. A more physical player than what we currently have would be nice, but puck handling skills better than what we have are essential. Further, a forward who has a bit of a 'dangerous' element to his game, would help balance the ledger in games where our players might feel intimidated. Sadly, Dubas is handcuffed by two contracts signed by Lou: Patrick M (who I think was a brilliant add, but for too much term) and Zaitsev, which I can't understand.
*Collectively, these issues have helped contribute to a general malaise which is affecting the team and which is making this team difficult to watch. However, they are not fatal concerns (missing or losing in playoffs).

My biggest HOT take ;) is that this team has yet to determine it's identity. We're in a state of flux and don't know who to look to for the 'team' push towards accountability on the ice. We've got plenty of leadership, but are experiencing the maturing phase of learning the pecking order. Marleau and Hainsey's time of leading by example, other than in words and dressing room value, have peaked. Tavares, Kadri, Andersen, Rielly are all experienced, but have yet to assert in a big way (with Tavares, especially, being somewhat of a surprise in not shaking things up a bit...newness?). Matthews and Marner still young and not yet being given the seal of approval? Essentially, our flat performances of late are on the players. Thankfully and hopefully, I see the quality of these people as being our best chance of escaping the doldrums. As we've the All Star break coming up soon, I think now will be the perfect time for Dubas and Babcock to step in and speak to those players mentioned above and say to them, fix it, it's your team, fix it. You've got our support, you folks get the rest of the team on board and we'll figure it out from there. I like our talent, I like our character, I'd like to see an addition or two and a less dominant presentation from our coach. It's time for the players to stand up and I think they can do it. Go Leafs!

If you made it this far, you're a heck of a patient person. :thumbu:
Made it here pretty quick. I read from down up!
 

Throw More Waffles

Unprecedented Dramatic Overpayments
Oct 9, 2015
12,895
9,765
On all of those other 18 wheeler off the cliff seasons, there were always people like you chiming in around February claiming everything would be ok...

Are you the open-minded one who correctly sees that people are over-reacting?

Or are you the closed-minded one who refuses to accept how glaring the leafs current problems are?

Only time will tell I suppose...
 
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thewave

Registered User
Jun 17, 2011
40,269
10,156
As a Leafs fan, I prefer to look at it this way:
Leafs fans are collectively incredibly stupid goon loving dinosaurs who hate skillful Europeans and want the skill players traded so the Leafs situation could worsen
And on slow news days, the Fan 590, TSN 1050 along with Sportsent and TSN sports networks are busy catching Leafs farts hoping to stumble upon something to say
And then we have the print media trying to keep the screws in the fans brains from further loosen.

Kyle Dubas has an office waiting for you.

iu
 
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Throw More Waffles

Unprecedented Dramatic Overpayments
Oct 9, 2015
12,895
9,765
You know... if you gathered the dirt from many many molehills, you will eventually have a mountain.

I'm not saying that's necessarily the case...

But the leafs were supposed to have 3 elite potent lines to make up for their defensive deficiencies. Instead, we've had one consistent line all year. It's not enough to make up for our other problems.

If Nylander, Matthews, and Kadri all play how we know they can, we'll be fine. But if all three don't turn it around... the dirt pile is adding up to a mountain rather quickly...
 

Wafflewhipper

Registered User
Jan 18, 2014
14,114
5,694
On all of those other 18 wheeler off the cliff seasons, there were always people like you chiming in around February claiming everything would be ok...

Are you the open-minded one who correctly sees that people are over-reacting?

Or are you the closed-minded one who refuses to accept how glaring the leafs current problems are?

Only time will tell I suppose...

You are one condescending poster aren't you. You don't seem to really have any grasp of this team actually so maybe think twice before questioning anyone else on their view points.

All you do is run around from thread to thread spewing your pessimistic view.

You figured you would take this thread personal I'm thinking.

Wow!!
 
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hector morrison

Registered User
Apr 1, 2018
4,792
1,998
As a Leafs fan, I prefer to look at it this way:
Leafs fans are collectively incredibly stupid goon loving dinosaurs who hate skillful Europeans and want the skill players traded so the Leafs situation could worsen
And on slow news days, the Fan 590, TSN 1050 along with Sportsent and TSN sports networks are busy catching Leafs farts hoping to stumble upon something to say
And then we have the print media trying to keep the screws in the fans brains from further loosen.
And you are here because...?
 
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Throw More Waffles

Unprecedented Dramatic Overpayments
Oct 9, 2015
12,895
9,765
You are one condescending poster aren't you. You don't seem to really have any grasp of this team actually so maybe think twice before questioning anyone else on their view points.

All you do is run around from thread to thread spewing your pessimistic view.

You figured you would take this thread personal I'm thinking.

Wow!!
I mean... I pretty much said either he is blind to the problems, or people like me are exaggerating them, and that only time will tell.

That's not really optimistic or pessimistic.
 

meefer

Registered User
Jun 9, 2015
4,714
4,655
Bangkok
On all of those other 18 wheeler off the cliff seasons, there were always people like you chiming in around February claiming everything would be ok...

Are you the open-minded one who correctly sees that people are over-reacting?

Or are you the closed-minded one who refuses to accept how glaring the leafs current problems are?

Only time will tell I suppose...

I suppose I'm the one who is optimistic. And as you say, time will tell.
 
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AreBe

This is the Real Are Be and not a Burner account!
Apr 1, 2013
880
313
And you are here because...?
To preach Empiricism and Positivism as the true and correct epistemological viewpoint
Hip, hip hooray for analytics! And Boo to fighting and penalty box sitting is my cause
Thank goodness we didn't trade Sparks! Let's hope we keep Nylander too! Only idiot Leafs fans would fret about excess skill and would give it away even if not under gunpoint
I admit- I am a skills fetishist! Even talk of trading Calle Rosen, Carl Grundstrom, Dmytro Timashov, Pierre Engvall, Andreas Borgman, Rasmus Sandin, Kasimir Kaskisuo, is grounds for pause!
 

horner

Registered User
May 22, 2007
7,954
4,463
Oh you're one of them. Someone says we need some toughness in our lineup and you assume we mean goons who only fight. We don't hate skilled players, we actually really like them. Those skilled players aren't gonna be on their game all the time because as we've seen this year it can easily be shutdown. But yeah, screw all those guys who want guys who has great work ethic and brings it every game because they weren't gifted with amazing skill so they work harder than everyone else to be successful. Team full of skill doesn't equal success because those players that rely on their skill can be very lazy and that's not a recipe for success, especially in the playoffs.
Agree
 
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horner

Registered User
May 22, 2007
7,954
4,463
Oh you're one of them. Someone says we need some toughness in our lineup and you assume we mean goons who only fight. We don't hate skilled players, we actually really like them. Those skilled players aren't gonna be on their game all the time because as we've seen this year it can easily be shutdown. But yeah, screw all those guys who want guys who has great work ethic and brings it every game because they weren't gifted with amazing skill so they work harder than everyone else to be successful. Team full of skill doesn't equal success because those players that rely on their skill can be very lazy and that's not a recipe for success, especially in the playoffs.

Being physically on the opposition wears them down and eventually giving the puck up a couple seconds earlier than the wish to.
Also a phisical player can take teams of there game plan ( ex. Marchant Ferland Gallagher Reeves and ect. )
 
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GodEmperor

Registered User
Oct 12, 2017
2,919
3,168
This team has underperfomed for two months now.

This is a team that should be near Tampa, yet night in and night out they struggle with Arizonas, Detroits, Floridas, Minnesotas, Chicagos and others.

Something has to give, yes Rielly, Marner, Tavares and Andersen have been excellent with Auston having the highest peak and then tailing off, but others have been really mediocre, Zatisev, Kadri and now Nylander.

I mean on one statistic alone (29th in the league in PP for the last month and a half), you should be worried, HOW can this be? How this much talent be that bad? I know of down stretches and teams adjusting, but that's ridiculous, something is going terribly wrong and this is NOT a team we're all cheering for to have another first round exit, the year would be a failure if they did.
 
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RLF

Registered User
May 5, 2014
3,303
890
This team has underperfomed for two months now.

This is a team that should be near Tampa, yet night in and night out they struggle with Arizonas, Detroits, Floridas, Minnesotas, Chicagos and others.

Something has to give, yes Rielly, Marner, Tavares and Andersen have been excellent with Auston having the highest peak and then tailing off, but others have been really mediocre, Zatisev, Kadri and now Nylander.

I mean on one statistic alone (29th in the league in PP for the last month and a half), you should be worried, HOW can this be? How this much talent be that bad? I know of down stretches and teams adjusting, but that's ridiculous, something is going terribly wrong and this is NOT a team we're all cheering for to have another first round exit, the year would be a failure if they did.

The one thing I have noticed is that it is the teams like you mentioned that don't have the skill to match that sit back and defend the stretch pass...and it seems to be working. The more talented teams seem comfortable trading chances with us, so we look better. I am also pretty sure teams are coached to death about not taking penalties against us. If you take into account that we are not a battling kind of team that is a relatively easy physical night to play against - as long as the opponent doesn't use stick work, we can't really draw many penalties. Stay out of the box and defend against the stretch pass - it seems a formula to beat the Leafs right now.
 
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Nithoniniel

Registered User
Sep 7, 2012
20,913
16,749
Skövde, Sweden
Being physically on the opposition wears them down and eventually giving the puck up a couple seconds earlier than the wish to.
Also a phisical player can take teams of there game plan ( ex. Marchant Ferland Gallagher Reeves and ect. )
Don't disagree with either point. I'd however say that physicality is a tool that you can use to separate players from the puck, but you can do that in other ways as well. What matters is that you get the results in the end.

I would like someone who can wreak the kind of havoc that a Marchand does. We had that in Kadri, however he rarely does that anymore and I'm not sure I trust him to not go over the line anymore.
 

RLF

Registered User
May 5, 2014
3,303
890
Being physically on the opposition wears them down and eventually giving the puck up a couple seconds earlier than the wish to.
Also a phisical player can take teams of there game plan ( ex. Marchant Ferland Gallagher Reeves and ect. )

As much as a lot of fighting is out the game, a good physical play and sometimes a fight can still change momentum in a game. You can give your team energy still from a good physical shift.
 

Bomber0104

Registered User
Apr 8, 2007
15,056
6,903
Burlington
As much as a lot of fighting is out the game, a good physical play and sometimes a fight can still change momentum in a game. You can give your team energy still from a good physical shift.

People that have played hockey understand this.

Former stick boys turned NHL GM's who've never played the game probably don't.
 

SprDaVE

Moderator
Sep 20, 2008
52,125
33,492
People that have played hockey understand this.

Former stick boys turned NHL GM's who've never played the game probably don't.

Yzerman doesn't seem to understand this right now. Weird.

Dubas also brought in plenty of tough and fighting players while was the Marlies GM. Brought in guys like Clune, Johnson, signed Marchment as a UFA prospect, Gudbranson, among other tough/fighting players that have rolled through that I can't remember.

This narrative that he goes out of his way to not include any sort of toughness is lazy.

It's almost like they all want good players that contribute effectively and a good mix of players is always needed.
 
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nsleaf

Registered User
Oct 21, 2009
4,070
1,447
To preach Empiricism and Positivism as the true and correct epistemological viewpoint
Hip, hip hooray for analytics! And Boo to fighting and penalty box sitting is my cause
Thank goodness we didn't trade Sparks! Let's hope we keep Nylander too! Only idiot Leafs fans would fret about excess skill and would give it away even if not under gunpoint
I admit- I am a skills fetishist! Even talk of trading Calle Rosen, Carl Grundstrom, Dmytro Timashov, Pierre Engvall, Andreas Borgman, Rasmus Sandin, Kasimir Kaskisuo, is grounds for pause!

Are you calling yourself an idiot?
 
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